But if Big G ok's it then what is the problem?!?

Precisely.

I'm not really understanding why people don't understand this. He's obviously talked with G! (hence his assignment of an avie &/or title), so that means he's approved. End of story. If I don't like it, I don't have to read the threads he starts. Also, it's not as if he's hitting threads in TV Talk or Book Talk ranting about how hot the Kim Kardashian DVD is...

Not only that but, unless our search function is faulty, he's only started 13 threads since he's been here (though, three of them have been on Kim - and G!'s reprimanded him about multiple threads for that).

So, really...what's the problem?

Well, to be technical, the clear shill posts from him weren't ok with Geoff as he'd warned him about them before and warned him again.

I think those posts are all people were complaining about, and Geoff did deal with it by warning him again, hence why all the posts since have been either by Houstondon or myself and others responding to him attacking us for complaining about the shill posts.

So it's not a big deal. I just don't want to see the shill posts by any representatives, and Geoff dealt with it and this particular member unfortunately decided to leave rather than staying and contributing in a not promoting manner.

Who would have thought the day would come....where I agree with Josh?!!!

Well said.

-p

Considering that Geoff has already spoken out about this issue... and considering that howard@vivid has made his official "goodbye" speech...

But Don... comparing me to art? That's a low-down shame.

Okay, before I graciously bow out by defering to the words from the gentleman from Balmy in post #50, I wanted to recap the history of this thread ever so briefly (which, for me at least, could end up being a virtual "review" of the thread). I wanted to do this since it's clear that a number of people are responding without reading the entire thread (plainly skimming the thing at best) and not knowing the history of the topic which has been covered several times before:
1) It started off with the OP making a statement that was simply wrong regarding the history of the company rep, then ending on the same note, points which where then addressed later when I showed how said rep posted about other things.

2) I got pulled in when multiple members, from both sides of the topic, started heavily quoting what I said in ANOTHER thread, the main thrust of one poster (the inspiration of the thread to begin with), started misstating the facts and introducing more than a little sarcasm and anger directed IN PART towards me.

3) A supporter of that person, one whose contempt for porn includes a few nasty remarks in the Nikki Nine thread regarding how her parents feel about her career choice, then starts in on the shady porn industry and raises the stakes by suggesting the "slippery slope" argument in terms of what could possibly happen and makes the accusation that since G! allows them here, something MUST be going on.

4) 3 more posters either defend the company rep or play light on Mo's comments, with some back and forth between them, resulting in more of the slippery slope argument that has yet to be supported.

5) I make my first actual appearance in the thread, trying to address some of the points made, offering a step by step dissection of the issues offered up, including addressing the sarcastic comments made about my stance from another thread.

6) Josh enters in to draw lines, stating his displeasure of having company reps on the website, followed by more nasty comments by Mojo directed at a member who made some points regarding who the site is run, practically calling for people to leave over the issue. This was followed by his posting directed at me and G! regarding his displeasure at how things are run here and admitting that he made his OP over not liking the de facto answer he got from the owner and moderators, suggesting people storm city hall in protest (again upping the ante and acting in the manner a few have suggested came from me).

7) Another supporter of the owner and website steps up and is then promptly shot down by Mojo with the same sort of comments, upon which time the OP for the thread (his supporter) comes back to misstate the facts again, followed by another supporter who clearly did not know what he was talking about when he also misstated the facts.

8) I return to the thread and address some of the comments made in as close to the same tone as I can, fueling a few who then treat me like I had committed a cardinal sin for having the audacity to hold up their comments to the light of day.

9) The owner jumps in and diplomatically tosses the anti-company rep squad a bone to cool their jets a bit.

10) A member jumps in to make as many comments about me as the topic of the thread.

11) I respond and yet another member who is okay with company reps tosses in a few comments with Josh coming back for a victory dance that the company rep appeared to be leaving, followed by a few of my comments and more nastiness by one who contributed little to the thread other than to suggest that I was the sole bearer of condescending sarcasm before Josh and I did the back and forth routine with a few seeing fit to try and turn this into a circus (with the "dating" comment) and/or trying to bully me from having a personal opinion (trying to invoke G! into coralling me in a round about way).

12) Josh largely took up the stance of the anti-company rep side from that point on, with little snipes by a few others, as a handful of people that didn't mind company reps spoke up, much of this after the topic had waned.

13) Others run with the topic that had died down, trying to change the focus about what was said for those too lazy to read it.

Okay, sorry for the length but while I have taken responsibility for whatever I might have done to keep the sarcasm levels as high as they were raised by others, I haven't seen anyone else doing so. In general, what cheesed me off was how so many of you made these false statements about what a forum member, Howard, had contributed/done to date all while trying to mischaracterize what I said and how I said it. I've seen the same dynamic played out in the politics threads (where some of you do the same thing as you've done here), the HD/BR threads (same thing), and at least a few other spots of interest. It's easy to get sucked into a back and forth argument where both sides should probably step back and chill out. For my part in keeping the nastiness to the level it was elevated to, I again apologize but to those who started it by drawing lines in the sand, I suggest you're not going to be happy with any compromises so you might want to rethink your positions a bit. Just a closing thought-if there are any more personal snipes headed my way, take them to email (I've tried to send a few of you messages or emails but you have them turned off).

"Nasty comments by Mojo"???

Uh, Don... you may want to just take a biiiig step back from the computer. Grab a beer or something. Take a chill pill.

For the record... this is the Feedback Forum. This is where people go to bitch about things happening in the forum. As long as they do it nicely, without attacking people (ahem!) and without condescension (cough-cough), then that's perfectly OK. You can speak your mind -- knock yourself out -- but you're not the voice of the forum.

There's really only one person getting kind of testy and upset:

Sorry Howard...I should have specified...

He only spams his company in every thread HE creates.

There...now am I completely wrong?

= J

Apology accepted.

I dont think Howard will stay gone for too long.. Not with the support group he has from us here. Bottom line if you dont like what he is posting dont read it. No one is holding a gun to your head to make you read it. Honeslty, I never thought I would see such a huge amount of narrow minded, self -centered men that are here 24/7 haggling over the KK post and Vivid. I dont believe the fuss that is being made over this and you men say women love to harp on issue.. wow.. you all need to look in a mirror and see what I am seeing.. Mindless banter over promo on the Vivid title which "G" already took care of as Don stated a few times. Now I see what Don has told me.. how the people here have run off others because of their comments and bullying those to leave. For those that took part in running Howard off.. Grow Up..

We were simply asking why certain forum members are treated differently than others, and why some are allowed to 'shill' when others are not. I'd hardly call it bullying, harping, etc.

Once again, <b>IT'S A FEEDBACK FORUM</b>. What impression does it give that two DVDTalk reviewers are bashing people who are using it to give their feedback? And what does it say about the man you're defending that when Jeff reprimanded him, he leaves, just like that?

= J

"G" took care of it.. so shouldnt you all just drop it.. I am not bashing oanyone.. I am just stating a opinion from my pov.. now if you really want to hear me bash someone feel free.. I dont buckle under pressure not even from men.. Its done over finished.. so lets move on ..

"I never thought I would see such a huge amount of narrow minded, self -centered men"

It's one of our personality traits that cause us to prop up the floral and jewelry industries.

"This is where people go to bitch about things happening in the forum"

That you don't see your own culpability in the thread's de-evolution is a shame, but there is a difference between "bitching" and offering constructive criticism; one causing things to get out of hand and the other working to improve the website for all.

"Apology accepted."

Consider our that our handshake (nods to NBT in a gesture of deference).

"We were simply asking why certain forum members are treated differently than others, and why some are allowed to 'shill' when others are not."

If you truly believe that, I suggest that you did not read what was written. That's not a slam towards your reading comprehension skills, just an observation based on the exact wording of what some had posted here. I can't fault you for it too harshly but pointing that out shouldn't make anyone "the bad guy" either (and we are also entitled to our personal opinions since we have a vested interest in the community that goes a bit beyond that of some of you).

"What impression does it give that two DVDTalk reviewers are bashing people who are using it to give their feedback? And what does it say about the man you're defending that when Jeff reprimanded him, he leaves, just like that?"

It should give the impression that we care about the forum every bit as much as the rest of you, defending our stances as aggressively as anyone else without trying some underhanded, behind the scenes tricks like you'll find at other websites when contributors cross paths with others. This is part of the "transparency" that our friend Mojo likes to see so much and just one reason why this is a better forum than most (for all its rough edges).

As far as Howard "leaving", I'd suggest to you that on weekends, he is out enjoying his personal life, with his last post made at the end of his work week (on Friday afternoon). In the other thread, he pointed out his reasoning for participating and G! has commented on the positive attributes of the guy, while asking him to downplay his more promotional side enough to appease some of you by "reminding" him that some get upset with that kind of thing (I have dealt with that kind of thing enough that I have a pretty thick skin but will admit that the more sensitive types might not be as forgiving, especially the ones that don't like adult entertainment-not all of you but certainly a few given the posts elsewhere). I appreciate that a few of you sent me emails about the thread (raising points from both sides better than was done here often enough) and wish all of you well.

I have nothing to contribute I'm afraid, but must make the following request.

Houstondon, please change/upgrade your browser so that you can use the quote button. Your posts here are very difficult to read.

I started subscribing to the feedback forum when I found that threads here are often the most entertaining.

Don, what kills me is you keep talking as if howard@vivid never did anything wrong, but only occasionally tiptoed across the line. Shilling his company is nothing new to Howard. In fact, I originally called him on the carpet over his first thread, which hyped his company's video starring Lil Jon:
When I called him on it, here was his response:
Mind you... that was post # 9 of howard's 95 posts. And admittedly, he did improve for a bit, starting a couple of threads that discussed condom-optional videos (mentioning but not shilling for Vivid), starting a contest, and even posting in some other people's threads. All good work by Howard, and exactly what I imagine Geoff had in mind when he invited industry insiders here. But that didn't last for long, as we saw by Howard's multiple shills for Reality Kings and Kim Kardashian's videos.

But look... I'm actually fully in favor of Howard continuing to post here, along with some of the others in adult entertainment, like SWorldMegan. I wouldn't mind seeing industry insiders from the mainstream market as well -- it'd be great to have some videogame people, some studio folks, etc. As long as they're here as members, just like the rest of us -- no pimping their product line, no shilling for their company. That should be a simple enough rule to follow, and it would keep there from being such a double standard.

Exactly. I'd love to see more industry insiders here. I just don't want to see self promoting posts.

Again, if they want to promote, buy an ad, or work with Geoff and the staff to get some preview articles etc. up for their upcoming titles. The non-forum area of this site could use some content like that, as I really don't care about reviews and columns. Some more "news" type stuff featuring exclusive interview, previews etc would get me actually checking the main pages here, rather than just going to the forums as I have for years.

Wow! Another great one! ..this is why there should be a strict zero tolerance for this stuff!!

[removed link]

Agreed.

Again, that stuff--a direct press release in this case--should either been in a section of the site devoted to it or not here at all.

It doesn't belong on the forum. It's just free advertising.

Mod note: Links to the adult forum are not allowed in the other forums. Unfortunately I'm not a mod of this forum so I can't remove it but please do.

Haha...Howard sure is getting some shit in that Kim K thread. Looks like he's dodging every question in the book...

= J

shill. n. a person who poses as a customer in order to decoy others into participating, as at a gambling house, auction, confidence game, etc.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but when someone's called [color=Blue]howard@vivid[/blue] I don't see how they could possibly pose as a customer. You can't be mad at these people for doing their job. They are basically posting here as the company, not a person. I can talk poorly about Vivid but I bet you if howard does, he's going to get in trouble.

On balance, I think these kinds of representatives are useful, if they are invited from Geoff. Maybe keep a "1& O Vivid Thread".

You forgot definition #2:

2. a person who publicizes or praises something or someone for reasons of self-interest, personal profit, or friendship or loyalty.

That would be a good idea...one thread for Vivid, one for ShanesWorld. People will know what to expect when going in, and people who don't like it...don't have to visit.

Since adult companies put out movies every week, the last thing I want to see is a 'new thread'/shill about ANOTHER release. There are important threads like the tragically comic Virgin Thread that need to stay towards the top!

-p

This is an EXCELLENT idea - and it's something that all involved should be happy with.

Can I please have a thread then to advertise my business? Since I'm a freelance programmer, I guess maybe a sticky at the top of the Tech Forum would be appropriate.

Does anyone else out there have a business that you'd like to promote in a thread here on DVDTalk?