Travis McClain

I propose that bonus content counts for the TV challenge. I've already said I don't care how anyone counts what they view, but if you want to adhere to the standard conversion formula, that's fine. For instance, let's say you watched the entirety of The Sopranos - The Complete First Season. If you didn't just count each episode and feature as an entry of one unit (which you're welcome to do), your list might look like this:

1. The Sopranos "The Sopranos"/"46 Long"
2. The Sopranos "Denial, Acceptance, Anger"/"Meadowlands"
3. The Sopranos "College"/"Pax Soprana"
4. The Sopranos "Down Neck"/"The Legend of Tennessee Moltisanti"
5. The Sopranos "Boca"/"A Hit Is a Hit"
6. The Sopranos "Nobody Knows Anything"/"Isabella"
7. The Sopranos "I Dream of Jeannie Cusamano"
8. The Sopranos Bonus material (85 minutes):
   • David Chase/Peter Bogdanovich Interview (77 minutes)
   • "Family Life" (4 minutes)
   • "Meet Tony Soprano" (4 minutes)

All told, the entire first season would be worth 7 1/2 standard conversion units. Granted, you'd be five minutes shy of a standard 90 minute entry with the bonus content but that's what you've got to work with here. You could, of course, add five minutes of content from something else if it bothered you but for our purposes I don't think it's necessary. And for what it's worth, there are another 21 minutes to be had by watching the "Previously On..." and "Next On..." clips. Also note that I rounded up the run time of "Meet Tony Soprano" since it clocks in at 3:30, but rounded down "Meet the Family" which runs 4:12.

The reason I've proposed this is that someone else previously expressed a desire to be able to watch bonus content and have it count for challenges, and I think that's perfectly in keeping with the idea that the DVD format has had an impact on our TV viewing habits.

Thoughts?

Fist of Doom

^Personally, I'd be for not counting at all. Just watch and list it as you see fit.

to Hamilton Books for putting up prizes (just got their latest catalog in the mail yesterday). I love that sponsors are supporting these challenges.

Travis McClain

I don't care how anyone organizes his or her list for this challenge; it was merely an illustration for those who might want an example of how bonus content might appear in a "standard" list. But, yes, your list could easily also look like this:

The Sopranos
"The Sopranos"
"46 Long"
"Denial, Acceptance, Anger"
"Meadowlands"
"College"
"Pax Soprana"
"Down Neck"
"The Legend of Tennessee Moltisanti"
"Boca"
"A Hit Is a Hit"
"Nobody Knows Anything"
"Isabella"
"I Dream of Jeannie Cusamano"
David Chase/Peter Bogdanovich Interview
"Family Life"
"Meet Tony Soprano"

The Man with the Golden Doujinshi

I'm of the boat that OTA stuff shouldn't be allowed as we have enough TV stuff allowed in other challenges and in just this case, we should focus on the stuff in our collections.

Travis McClain

So far, more than half of poll responders concur with you. Personally, I think it's the only rule this challenge should have, but I'm leaving it up to group consensus.

Trevor

Now that's not fair. I obviously meant that the TV content had to fit the Challenge.
You're still missing my main point. It is very exclusionary to make it a TV on DVD Challenge. Most of my friends don't even own any. I always hear the argument of why pay for something that gets repeated all the time for free.

When I envisioned the TV challenge, I imagined something with incredible potential for variety. Never watched most of your cable channels? Pick 31 and concentrate on one each day of the month. Have 100s of hours on your DVR? Watch it all no matter what. All of Seinfeld on DVD? Go for it.

I rarely watch TV, maybe a few hours per week, and haven't watched the news in 20 years (except on 9/11). Why shouldn't I be allowed to decide to make my challenge to watch a different news program every night. In fact, that's what I'm going to do. Along with some DVD sets of course.

Either of those ideas is much more creative than simply plowing through a DVD set or three, and totally in the spirit of our challenges imo.

Will most of us just do DVD sets? Probably. But why make it a guideline? Let people be creative.

Challenges have never limited people to having to own something before. Sure, one could rent TV sets I guess, but why make them?

I agree that the guideline should be to encourage participants to be creative and not just list what they would have watched anyway. I doubt many will do that, but even if they do, why in the world would it bother anyone?

It's exactly what people have been doing for all the Challenges since the beginning. Look at past list threads. A great number of them are just a couple of items, the stuff they happened to watch, and didn't really get into the spirit of the challenge. Should we delete their lists?

The MYOC Challenge encouraged people to be creative with their goals, but some people just listed normal watches. Why let that bother us?

Travis McClain

I'm not missing the point; I just happen to be of the mind that an exclusionary rule is a good thing for the challenge. No offense, but unless your friends are members of DVD Talk, their opinions are irrelevant here. If they are members and want to participate, then now's the time to express their thoughts. They don't even have to post thoughts; they can just vote in the poll if that's what they're comfortable doing.

Then maybe you'd rather see if the TV Forum is interested in having a challenge? It seems wrong to me to have a challenge in the DVD Forum that isn't about the DVD format.

Trevor

Rules are never good for any Challenge. Guidelines are great.

Every other Challenge has been in the DVD Forum yet allows non-DVD content.

You're set and the voting isn't going to change at this point. I'm quite shocked that this many people actually voted.

We're cool, but you're killing me MinL! Take the two most important elements of my idea and totally change them both. Last time I give you any of my ideas!

Challenges are definitely getting more popular around here. Viva la Defis!

Travis McClain

Not sure I understand what you mean by my being "set." I hope you're not suggesting that I have no intention of deferring to the opposing view should it prevail in the votes. There's still plenty of time for poll responses to say that the majority of participants want to include OTA content. Other than you playing devil's advocate, nearly every other poster so far who has expressed an opinion at all has come out in favor of excluding it. Their arguments make sense to me; that's why I put it in the poll in the first place.

Oh, you say that now...but you'll have another epiphany you won't be able to keep to yourself! Seriously, though, I'm not trying to be a challenge czar. And, really, there are only three topics that have even touched off any kind of debate: which month, whether or not to include OTA content and whether material eligible for other challenges should be included. Hosting in January has been the favorite (so far) by a respectable margin, and including other-challenge material has been a landslide. So, really, we're just debating one element here.

All part of the plan, yo.

Trevor

Not at all, just that you're set in your (wrong) opinion.

I'm fine with the move to January, the poll numbers (fwiw, polls are never a perfect tool) show a solid support for January over November.

But here's the thing on the OTA question. Why does it have to be majority rule? The numbers are close enough that you can see there is solid support for OTA. What purpose does it serve to exclude a large majority of opinion?

Why would it bother the rest of you that my TV challenge is to watch OTA that would be a new and creative experience for me personally?

I'm not saying that everyone has to watch OTA. Me and the other 37% or so can possibly mix some OTA in with our DVDs, and the rest of you can do all VHS or whatever you want.

Win win.

Dimension X

As I said in my earlier post, I picked that option because it was the closest to what I would like; to leave out current shows. I'd have no problem with people watching older shows on broadcast TV, DVD, LD, cable, whatever.
Since all the other Challenges had limits that kept people from just listing whatever they happened to watch on TV that day, why are you against some limits for this one?
You don't really believe that. Do you?

Trevor

No, I'm all for limits. It has to be content made for TV.

Maybe, but we could write books on the distinctions between rules and guidelines. It doesn't really matter.

Numes

I've already relayed my thoughts on a TV challenge, in general, so you can take my opinion on the broadcast/OTA/DVR views with a grain of salt.

In general, I would say broadcast/OTA/DVR viewings should count, and my reasoning will be through example. Say I start recording season 3 of Fringe and I haven't watched the first two seasons. I could watch the first two seasons on Blu-Ray and then watch my DVR'ed episodes to get "caught up" on the series as part of the challenge. Some people might look at a challenge as a good opportunity to do something like that.

On the flip side, it would a shame to have someone just watch broadcast stuff (as MinLShaw said, that could be a TV Talk challenge.) I'm not sure how well a rule like 50% of your viewings have to be on media, but it would be something to think about.

If I were a challenge czar for a TV challenge, I would say no syndicated/re-run viewings because they almost always edit the show! (no!! bad!!) That would also go for a movie challenge - no "edited for television" viewings, it makes me sick to even think about it. I have to hold back from yelling at people when they say they do that (not to mention the OAR concerns.)

Travis McClain

With ya so far...

...still good...

...and now I think we should've taken that left turn at Albuquerque. Maybe going into a second challenge we'll have enough sense of how this should go to fiddle with things like quotas, but for this inaugural run I'm disinclined to even go down that path.

Earlier I proposed a compromise that, as long as it's had a media release, OTA content would qualify. No one has responded one way or another so far to that idea.

Numes

I wasn't necessarily suggesting anything like quotas or percentage rules, I was just simply trying to account for the fact that it would be a shame to have someone just watch all broadcast TV. It's probably something that wouldn't be worth enforcing, but "highly encouraged." In addition, I am not even suggesting that rules on how a show was edited should also be a rule, but perhaps "highly encouraged" to avoid syndicated shows. It wouldn't be worth it to make it a "rule." When I said "challenge czar," it was more meant to be something that would be nice if everyone agreed with, because (of course) I am right!

Trevor

How about this compromise?

The main complaint against OTA seems to be the fear that people will just list what they would have watched normally. (I still don't see why that should bother anyone. Challenges should be inclusive, let people be as restrictive as they want to be for themselves, etc etc) Ok, fine. Make a rule against that. Rule #1: Do not list what you would have normally watched had there not been a TV challenge.

However, let people be creative and get into the true nature of any Challenge, to explore the genre's content in a unique and creative way, with the community.

I'm biased, but my two ideas (31 new-to-me networks or 31 news programs) are much more creative than anything else I've seen mentioned. And neither one are things that I would have watched normally.

If you just want to plow through your TV season sets, do it in the regular unwatched or viewing threads. The TV challenge, as I envisioned it, was something where people could explore TV content in any way they wanted. TV on DVD can be very limiting and boring.

That'sAllFolks

I think we should allow anything that's every played on TV to be included. If it's been on the Sunday night movie, then include it. If it's been on HBO, include it. If you saw a trailer for a movie still in theaters include it. In fact if you have a new DVD and you set the case on the TV, then include it.

Everytime I read the rules on these things, I think "why bother". Including movies with CGI special effects in the animation challenge ... what a stretch. Including Westerns or War movies that have no historical basis in the History challenge. What a stretch.

Not trying to flame this, but I think some people stretch the limits to include anything you might want to watch to up the count. If you want to watch a movie or OTA TV broadcast, you are not restricted from doing so during the challenge, but you shouldn't count it either.

This is actually one challenge I would like to participate in, but all these little "inclusions" make something that should be simple complicated.

Travis McClain

Not that it matters, but I agree. And you can easily find my objections lodged in both of the relevant discussion threads.

Well said. And again, I agree. I think the idea of inclusiveness has fallen down the slippery slope into little more than anarchy and undermines the entire point of the term, "challenge."

Well, regardless of what is ultimately decided I hope you join us. We'll have a sponsor and the prizes won't be awarded based on view totals so regardless of what any other participant does you've got a crack at scoring some free stuff for your library. What's not to like about that?

Dimension X

I'm okay with this.
You wouldn't just be listing what you normally watch on whatever night, so this sounds good too.
What about DVD releases that are edited for music, or contain the syndication cuts?

Travis McClain

Okay, now that the insanity that is the Horror Challenge is behind me, I'm ready to get back to the TV Challenge. The poll results are pretty clear. Participants want to have this in January, allow content that is eligible for other challenges and favor a Disc Only limitation. I have been adamant all along that allowing OTA content threatens to reduce this challenge to nothing more than a "What are you watching?" thread. I still believe that's a slippery slope, and I concur with those who feel that limitations are necessary to make it an actual challenge.

But then something happened. I saw Ghostbusters on the big screen on the 23rd. There was a side discussion in a thread about Back to the Future about the appeal of seeing older movies in a theater and the summation of my perspective is that the theater is a film's natural environment. It took all of about three seconds before I realized that if I felt that way about film, then the same must be true of viewing TV content over the air. I hate to overrule a majority vote, but I'd rather be a tyrant than a hypocrite.

I'm still wary that this will devolve into a "What are you watching?" thread. I would urge participants to go further than just listing whatever's on the boob tube when they turn it on; this isn't a Nielsen report. This inaugural run will be very loose; we'll fine tune things once we've had a chance to see it in action, and get a sense of what works best to provide participants with a rewarding experience.

Trevor

Quoting you while you're sane.

And a rewarding experience is what we as individuals make of it. If 2 or even 50 people ignore my suggested rule of "Don't list what you watch normally", that in no way hurts my enjoyment of getting into a true Challenge mindset. More power to them.

I'm looking forward to doing one or more of my creative ideas, and to what you and others come up with.

WallyOPD

Isn't this exactly what you're doing?

Travis McClain

The irony is not lost on me. My point at the time was that I was not intending to arbitrarily decide something contrary to the majority vote, not that I wouldn't do it. I think I'm less of a hypocrite for reversing my position on OTA content given my position on film on the big screen than I am for doing something I said I didn't intend to do.

In retrospect, I should have waited until after election day to flip flop.

JOKipper

I'm not sure I understand the logic here. For obvious reasons, it's usually better to see a theatrical film in a theater. The "natural environment" of TV content is the TV, and the natural environment of TV DVDs is the TV as well. I don't consider commercials, screen-crawls, etc. to be an important part of the process of the TV content experience.
The title of this challenge is obviously "TV on DVD", and the majority has voted for it to be exactly that. Surely there's another month available to setup a separate "Watch What You Don't Want to Watch on TV" challenge.

Diluting these challenges to be so all-inclusive makes them almost pointless; although a few other people might join in because of the vagueness, others will turn away because of the absurdity.

Travis McClain

The logic is not that a projector & screen = a physical TV, but that a projector & screen = airwaves. Few mainstream television series had a home video release until the DVD format, meaning that the majority of broadcast content was viewed exclusively over the air. Just as lobby posters and the smell of unhealthy popcorn are part of the movie-going experience, so too are commercials, etc. of the TV viewing experience.

They're certainly an unwelcome presence, but commercials have been part of TV since day 1 when a broadcast would include mentioning its sponsors as part of the programming. Are they important? From an artistic perspective, no, they're not. From a historical perspective, though, it's hard to deny the presence of these elements in the medium.

I gave it the title. It also says, "2010" and the decision to postpone it until January means that's a lie, too. I can't help it; it's the effect of all the political campaign ads I've endured this last month. And while there are still a couple of months open for challenges, and you're perfectly welcome to try to establish a "Watch What You Don't Want to Watch on TV" challenge, I suspect you'll have a very difficult time convincing the community at large to acknowledge it or participate in it.

In principle, I agree with this. That's why I initially balked at the inclusion of OTA content. The digital age has revolutionized the TV format that OTA is no longer the default medium for a lot of viewers. I realize that, and that's why I felt the emphasis of the challenge ought to be on that aspect. Taking a more holistic view, though, calls this into question.

During World War II, Americans got their news in print and through radio, but the only visual record they had of events was presented in theaters. President Truman once blasted the media for dogging him about his whereabouts, wishing to just fly to visit his mother in peace. One reporter noted that he was, after all, the president, and the press had an obligation to be handy should something significant occur. Reporters had felt the same way even before the advent of television, certainly, but it wasn't until TV that we as citizens expected immediate, live, audio/visual coverage of breaking news. We take for granted that our TV will let us know if something noteworthy has occurred in the world.

All that aside, there is a more practical reason for this allowance and I expect it to be good enough for anyone who might disagree with it. There will be no counting of participant totals for this challenge. Ergo, there is absolutely no impact that one participant's list will have on anyone else. All prizes will be distributed based on another method, most likely a trivia-based contest similar to what Chad did during the Horror Challenge. (One caveat: I've already decided that I will only accept entries for those from participants, and not site members in general. It should be pretty easy; just have a list in the list thread when we establish it and you're eligible to win.)

Don't misinterpret the word, "challenge." This is not an "every man for himself" competition. This is a month long thematic viewing activity in which each participant is encouraged to gorge on as much eligible content as he or she can stomach.