I see some people are including Hancock on their lists. How are they able to do this? I didn't see a sci-fi label on imdb or all movie.com. Am I missing something?

I don't plan to watch any myself, but we might as well get this ruling out of the way. Since documentaries count, and shorts count as they get to the 23 minute mark, what about DVD featurettes/interviews about sci-fi films?

Same ruling? Fake example: Two featurettes on the Brainstorm DVD totaling 23 minutes would count as 1/4? Featurette of 45 minutes would count as 1/2?

Good catch. Hancock doesn't count.

If anyone sees anything that doesn't belong, be sure to post it here or PM me if you want privacy.

Same ruling. Just count it by time as with TV shows.

The inclusion of documentaries hurt the Horror challenge. You know someone is going to just park the TV on G4 channel all day and count it. Also, DVD extras, interviews and assorted ephemera are just supplements, not movies. At the very least, these challenges should be for narratives.


I honestly forgot about this challenge until I was reminded the day before it started. I regret not making a stronger case for the inclusion of Fantasy genre. Sci-Fi is just a subset of Fantasy, after all. Sci-Fi and Fantasy are always lumped together in bookstores, video stores, online stores, libraries, etc. TV was included because of a perceived lack of titles (at the very least in our personal libraries). I'm not sure why we aren't allowed to include Legend, the Dark Crystal, Excaliber, LOTR, and Comic Book Superhero movies but we might be able to include DVD cast interviews?

These challenges are a wonderful excuse for watching movies and we included TV to also help justify purchases of series sets. There's not enough good fantasy movies to merit an entire dedicated challenge, but more than enough to supplement this one. We're only 4 days into this. I still think we should allow Fantasy in.

I disagree with your views on commentaries. I agree with your views on interview type supplements. I disagree with your desire to include fantasy.

I think LOTR style fantasy is different enough from Sci-Fi to not be included. You could always watch Barbarella though.

If this were a 'Science Fiction' movie thread, I'd say exclude fantasy in a heartbeat; however, traditionally the populist term Sci-Fi (or 'Skiffy') has often included science fiction, space opera, fantasy, etc...

Of course, right now I'm sticking to the rules of the game by using IMDB or allmovie.come as a reference for what is allowed viewing, but I'd be OK with fantasy like 'Lord of the Rings' for inclusion in the month's viewing.

Michael

I'm going to backtrack a little on the rules.

Sci-Fi documentaries are allowed but not DVD featurettes/interviews.

When I think of Sci-Fi documentaries, I'm thinking documentaries about UFOs, alien crash at Roswell, Area 51 and not so much about the making of movies. Things more like that. If anyone added interviews or featurettes before this point I'll allow it but not after now.

I disagree on allowing fantasy since when I think of Sci-Fi, I'm thinking more of the science and technological aspect and not so much of elves with their bows.

edit: The only time I'd allow for fantasy is I we did a February Fantasy Challenge.

Hey Giles - Just a reminder that you should number your list :D

If it included fantasy I'd have to watch The Seven Year Itch.

I'm just going to chime in that a Sci-Fi Challenge should most certainly NOT contain Fantasy-only titles. I can't even fathom why this would even be discussed/considered. These are completely separate genres.

If anyone's curious, Sci-Fi and Fantasy are my two favorite genres, so I'm not being biased or anything... or maybe I am because they are my two favorite?

Peanut butter & jelly, Bert & Ernie, pizza & beer, spoiled heiresses & little tiny dogs aren't the same thing, but they go together naturally. Sci-Fi is always sorted together with Fantasy. Walk into any video store or section and Horror, action, drama, comedy, martial arts, Western, etc. all get their own sections and Sci-Fi & Fantasy are together 80-90% of the time. Anytime I've ever been to a Sci-Fi convention there's always more people walking around dressed as Xena than as Klingons (anyone who's ever really gone to a convention knows that Klingon scalps are in and Vulcan ears are out). The Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America (SFWA) is the guild of professional writers. Nearly all the major awards are inclusive of both Fantasy and Science Fiction, including the Hugo, Saturn and Nebula awards. It's no stretch to include them together. So please don't act incredulous as to why I would bring this up. I respect an honest disagreement, but don't pretend that I'm crazy for suggesting this.

I'm amazed that people can believe watching the same movie again but with someone talking over the soundtrack somehow counts as a different movie, but don't think Science Fiction and Fantasy go together in the public consciousness. People are discussing counting DVD interviews and "making of" featurettes but somehow The Dark Crystal is out of line?

Are we seriously considering a dedicated Fantasy challenge? We've barely got 40 people in this challenge. Is there enough Fantasy to merit an entire challenge? There's certainly not enough good fantasy to balance out the shit. Sci-Fi had a whole decade pretty much to itself (the 50s). We've included TV because of a lack of titles in participants' personal collections. What harm is there in including more features from a well-established related genre? Even in Horror Challenge, I've been for the inclusion of suspense and thrillers (as long as they involve some horrific or morbid threat to the main characters- Hand that Rocks the Cradle counts, the Bourne Identity does not.). What's important is genre and that they be features.

Personally, I'd prefer to lump Sci-Fi and Fantasy together and save other challenges for other genres. Perhaps a month of Cult/Exploitation/B-Movie films (with a lot of leeway-the fun would be in seeing people's interpretation of the genre).

Seriously, is everyone really that opposed to it?

Thanks for mentioning Tomorrowland. I've been looking for an excuse to finally watch those DVDs.

IMDb says the Disneyland episodes Our Friend the Atom, Man in Space, Man and the Moon, and Mars and Beyond are all Sci-Fi, so I'll be watching those soon.

So? They could argue that you're just going to shuffle DVDs all day. Their choices are just as valid as yours. I think you're overly concerned with numbers, and with what people choose to watch. This has not been labeled a "film" challenge. You (and I) may argue that a pure film challenge may be better, but that is not what what this is. The thread starter gets to make the rules. We had a full month of discussion to help guide them.
Again, not attacking, I agree with you to some extent. But I hate to see people hung up on rules and numbers. I don't care if some people "cheat" and watch questionable things, or claim 20 hours of content a day. There are always going to be people who do that, don't let them bother us. Personally, I try to aim for about 2-3 hrs of TV per day max, but will double it for a challenge like this. I averaged an unhealthy 7 hours per day for the Holiday challenge, yet that average would have only been good enough for 11th place in the Horror challenge. Some people here really get into these "challenges" and make them a "contest". I'd also prefer it to be more film based, and stress quality over quantity.
I agree with your later post that fantasy is always lumped in with sci-fi, and people should not be amazed that it is brought up. Personally, I'm ok with fantasy being left out. I think a LOTR sort of film is miles away from science fiction. However, I don't see how comic book hero movies are not labeled sci-fi. I didn't even check IMDB, I always thought that movies like Hancock and Spider-Man are obviously sci-fi.

I haven't been to a video store in probably 5-6 years, so I can't speak to how THEY organize their movies, but I know on my shelves, they are definitely separate. I have Sci-Fi, Fantasy, and Comic-Book movies separated. In every case, it's absolutely clear where they belong. To me, Dark Crystal is miles away from Star Trek.

Do I agree that they are lumped together for things like conventions? Yes.

Do I agree that there are significantly less Fantasy titles to warrant a challenge? Yes (Although I'm sure I have at least a month's worth of fantasy titles, but I'm in the minority)

caligulathegod - I do understand the points you've made, but not everything has to fit in one of these challenges. Right now there are 4 challenges. I think if another one was added it would over-saturate the point of these challenges. Trevor adds a good point - if we were to add fantasy, then it seems like we should add comic book movies too.

I strongly believe that if we were to add Fantasy to the "Sci-Fi Challenge," it would be a determent. Would I be "that guy" and boycott it or anything? Of course not...I do enjoy these challenges and I like it focusing my viewing into a particular genre/theme.

for the record I though the ID4 commentary was disappointing, lots of dead air during the conversation - if they had said, "oh I like shot" one more time I would have shot myself.

"Mars and Beyond" was great, looking forward to seeing the other episodes.

Spider-Man is labeled sci-fi, which I'm guessing is that futuristic technology aspect to it. Hancock is more of a guy with internal powers that doesn't use science(unless I'm wrong).

60's Batman TV show along with the serials are sci-fi.

Superman is sci-fi, what with the aliens and stuff.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definit...cience_fiction

A couple definitions show the difference between sci-fi and fantasy. I think this is the clearest definition of the differences between the two.

There's a big difference IMO, between Hercules and Star Wars. One uses science and technology and the other doesn't.

I think that when video stores mix them together, it's mostly because there isn't enough sci-fi and even less fantasy to keep separate. The ones around me keep them separate, except Blockbuster, but they mix horror with everything else so they don't count.

Please tell me you actually meant the sci-fi channel.

665 fantasy movies here :)

SciFi and Fantasy are usually lumped together; however, though I like both, to me they are drastically different. I think they've been lumped together, initially in bookstores, because they were the redheaded stepchildren of fiction, sort of in an "everything else" category. That may of course been true initially in the pulp era, but it's an uphill battle to fight that stereotype.
I think I read Isaac Asimov defining science fiction as postulating one scientific advance that is 'impossible' today and extrapolating other scientific advances and, more importantly, how those advances affect the people/entities/society that possess it. SF is one 'couldn't happen', fantasy is many. Or SF is one hasn't-happened-yet, Fantasy is couldn't-happen (similar to Serling's definition).
It's funny that Star Wars was mentioned--it's been argued that there's virtually nothing in the initial Star Wars films that required the scientific advances to explain them; it, especially ANH, could have been placed in the Old West and still tell essentially the same story.
I don't think science fiction actually even really needs much new "science". It's a way of telling stories about people and societies, not about cool spaceships and lasers. The spaceships are merely the vehicle (sorry) for the tale. I'm thinking more print now, but a classic (imho) such as Pohl's "A Day at the Lottery Fair" isn't really science based and only has one major science advancement that we don't have, and even that is merely a fancy Russian roulette. The focus of many Heinlein's novels is liberty and government; Asimov, the nature of being human. Saberhagen's Berserker stories could use the Berserkers only as a reflection of an unknown, un-understood enemy (like terrorists). I would actually consider the movie Series 7 as science fiction based on the 'extrapolation' argument.
Anyway, the definition of science fiction can surely be debated and there's lots of good arguments on all sides.

I never said Sci-Fi and Fantasy were the same thing. I said they go together like peanut butter & jelly. I'd argue that they aren't lumped together by book and video stores in a "catchall" category. In fact, I cited the highest organization of professional creators of the stuff (SFWA) includes them together. The highest prestige awards include them together. I grew up a fan of Horror, Sci-Fi and Fantasy, so I understand the fan imposed Apartheid on them. As I've grown older, I realize that lumping them together is not a disrespectful ghettoization, but a simple recognition that they are all Genre that is more fantastic than mundane fiction. They are routinely the highest grossing (small g) genres, so they are no longer quite the red-headed stepchildren they used to be. The second highest grossing film of all-time is J.R.R. Tolkien. The authoress of one particular series currently has more money than the Queen of England. It's more than just us geeks watching these things now.

If this were a music listening challenge, would it be unreasonable to exclude reading liner notes or reviews in Rolling Stone magazine towards your list? That's the functional equivalent of commentaries and DVD interviews and featurettes. Excluding Fantasy is kind of like excluding Bluegrass music in a Country-Western music challenge. No, they aren't the same thing, but they go together like peas in a pod. How about excluding Hip-Hop from an R&B music challenge. They aren't the same thing, but they are related genres. You get the idea.

Should I care? I suppose I really don't. These have always been persuasion posts rather than argumentative ones. Do what you want. I'm convinced we should be inclusive rather than exclusive. I don't see any real functional difference between Hancock and Superman, regardless of what IMDB says. The MPAA thinks it's Sci-Fi in their rating ("contains Sci-Fi violence"). Superman just uses some bullshit SF reference to explain why he's a god, while Hancock uses a slightly different one to explain the same thing. Night of the Living Dead is just a Sci-Fi as Superman (Venus probe, anyone?). I'm including (big G) Genre films in my list. Join me, if you like.

I totally agree with your premise: sci-fi and fantasy are two different genres which are oftentimes lumped together for the sake of convenience, space considerations, etc. Since I usually purchase my books online, I made a conscious effort to hit a B&M Borders this afternoon and behold: Sci-Fi & Fantasy were bundled together both in the book and the DVD aisles. I would like to include fantasy films as part of this challenge so I can add Hancock and various Star Wars films to my viewing list though I certainly understand why some people object.

I get what you're saying. I just don't agree that Hercules and Terminator belong together in a sci-fi challenge. On the other hand, it people are interested, I'd be willing to change it to a sci-fi/fantasy challenge next year if people were interested.

Thoughts, comments, suggestions?

I don't know why people are using them as examples, but Night of the Living Dead and all of the Star Wars films are listed as Sci-Fi.

it's the inclusion of Lord of the Rings I don't get though?

Thanks for taking me seriously. I wrote and rewrote nearly all of my posts to come across as persuasive and not whiny. I even used G4 on purpose because it was the most over-the-top ridiculously tenuous Sci-fi related channel so I hoped the joke would come through. Tone is hard to convey over the internet and there just wasn't the right emoticon to express this.

I'm not sure how wanting to watch Pan's Labyrinth truly dilutes a list that would include Star Wars.

I'm geek, too. I understand the need to separate genres so that it looks like we have more interests than we do (you know what I'm talking about-"What kind of music do you play here?""Both kinds: Country and Western."). There's also that school of thought that hates to lump Star Wars and Star Trek fans together because "the other guys make us look bad". We all have our lines of geek-marcation (If I may coin a phrase). Some consider SF the fiction heir to Einstein and Heisenberg. Somehow the purity is besmirched including elves and orcs and cyberspace. I say, embrace your inner geek. Christ, it's the middle of summer and we're watching science fiction movies indoors! Turning your nose up at Fantasy is a bit supercilious, don't you think?

I have to disagree with the horror challenge being ruined with documentaries.

Horror, ghost, vampire, haunting etc. documentaries are typically watched by more people in October for the same reason the Horror Challenge occurs in October, Halloween.

I tend not to watch seasonal themed movies out of season either.

I think many challenge participants reserve movies, tv shows and documentaries in a specific genre to be watched during the appropriate challenge and these dvds sit on the shelf during the remainder of the year.

If a challenge becomes an annual event it lends itself to the thinking that such and such month is dedicated to one specific genre. Because of that, any additional dvd materials should add up just like short films in which I believe the 23 minute idea is an excellent one. You still have to spend the time watching it. If you are going to cheat on supplemental materials then most likely you would cheat on the rest.

The best part of any challenge is seeing something on someones list that I have never seen or had long forgotten.

I might have been a bit harsh.

Anyway, I had been sitting on 2001 for months. It was the reason I even got the TV and went blu-ray. I was hoping to save it for the right time and this was it. I want to thank MrPeepers for hosting the challenge. It helped make it special watching it.

This has been really fun.

I was thinking last night that the only thing missing from the Horror Challenge that I liked was the checklist. That's something I'll want to get done for next year.

I'm still deciding if I want to do it as a Sci-Fi & Fantasy challenge next year. For this challenge, I'll keep it sci-fi only since that's what it's called. It seems like that's the major complaint for allowing fantasy movies this year which I agree with.

Let your voice be heard, majority rules, you are the future, blah blah blah. We have one in favor so far.

I vote for including fantasy next year.

Rob

Here was the last horror challenge template. A lot of it obviously doesn't apply, but here it is in it's entirety for discussion/editing.


Watch one film from every decade, starting with the 1890's.
--- 1890:
--- 1900:
--- 1910:
--- 1920:
--- 1930:
--- 1940:
--- 1950:
--- 1960:
--- 1970:
--- 1980:
--- 1990:
--- 2000:

Watch films in at least two languages other than English.
--- First language, .
--- Second language, .

--- Watch the MST3K version of a horror film.
--- Watch a film and its remake.
--- Watch a film based on a video game.
--- Watch a film based on a novel.
--- Watch a film directed by Uwe Boll.
--- Watch a film which won an Academy Award -- any category.
--- Watch a silent horror film.
--- Watch a Criterion version horror film.
--- Watch a film with commentary.
--- Watch a film and at least two sequels.
--- Watch a film that takes place on a holiday.
--- Watch a film that takes place in space.
--- Watch a film that takes place on or under the sea.
--- Watch an animated horror film.

Watch a film for each rating:
--- G
--- PG
--- PG-13
--- R
--- NC-17
--- X
--- Unrated

Watch a film in each of the following horror subgenres:
--- Vampire
--- Frankenstein
--- Werewolf
--- Mummy
--- Invisible Man
--- Ghost/haunting
--- Witchcraft/satanic/religious
--- Zombie
--- Slasher/psycho/homicidal maniac
--- Monster/creature feature
--- Documentary
--- Musical
--- Spoof
--- Revenge
--- Killer doll
--- Killer animal

Watch a film starring:
--- Bela Lugosi
--- Lon Chaney Sr.
--- Lon Chaney Jr.
--- Peter Cushing
--- Boris Karloff
--- Vincent Price
--- Christopher Lee
--- Jamie Lee Curtis
--- Robert Englund
--- Bruce Campbell

(* - First Time Viewings)

Thanks Trevor.

Here's what I came up with

Watch one film from every decade, starting with the 1890's.
--- 1890:
--- 1900:
--- 1910:
--- 1920:
--- 1930:
--- 1940:
--- 1950:
--- 1960:
--- 1970:
--- 1980:
--- 1990:
--- 2000:

Watch films in at least two languages other than English.
--- First language, .
--- Second language, .

--- Watch the MST3K version of a sci-fi film.
--- Watch a film and its remake.
--- Watch a film based on a video game.
--- Watch a film based on a novel.
--- Watch a film directed by Ed Wood.
--- Watch a film which won an Academy Award -- any category.
--- Watch a silent sci-fi film.
--- Watch a Criterion version sci-fi film.
--- Watch a film with commentary.
--- Watch a film and at least two sequels.
--- Watch a film that takes place on a holiday.
--- Watch a film that takes place in space.
--- Watch a film that takes place on or under the sea.
--- Watch an animated sci-fi film.
--- Watch a film with special effects by Ray Harryhausen
--- Watch a film directed by Roland Emmerich
--- Watch a film directed by Larry Buchanan

Watch a film for each rating:
--- G
--- PG
--- PG-13
--- R
--- NC-17
--- X
--- Unrated

Watch a film in each of the following sci-fi subgenres:
--- Alien invasion
--- Artificial intelligence
--- Cyborg
--- Post Apocalyptic
--- Dying Earth
--- Hollow earth
--- Cybernetic revolt
--- Immortality
--- Parallel universe
--- Mutants
--- Documentary
--- Musical
--- Spoof
--- Time travel
--- Spy-fi
--- Space opera

Watch a film starring:
--- Sigourney Weaver
--- Harrison Ford
--- Peter Cushing
--- Boris Karloff
--- Arnold Schwarzenegger
--- Will Smith
--- Jeff Goldblum
--- Patrick Stewart
--- Keanu Reeves
--- John Agar

(* - First Time Viewings)

Anyone running across reused monsters or props?

I'm watching Scared To Death and thought the monster looked familiar. The people that made Syngenor, 8 years later, decided to reuse the mold for their movie to save money.

It's ultimately a philosophical question. What it comes down to is what kind of challenge is this? Is it a movie challenge or a DVD challenge? There's nothing stopping anyone from watching that interview or short video on how they brought the story to life. There's nothing stopping anyone from starting the movie over again and watching it with the commentary. It's just that we've decided to quantify the challenge. We make lists. Is this a challenge about how much time you've spent in front of the TV or is it about movies? If it were just about the time, then why even bother keeping lists? We could all just have posts with accumulated times. No, it's about movies. As you say, the best part of the challenge is looking at other lists and seeing titles you've never seen or forgotten about. How exciting is it to look at a list and see one movie listed and then listings of all the fluff they put on the DVD to help sell them? Do we get a cookie because when the movie was done we watched the trailer? Are the overall numbers so important that we need to get credit for every scrap of entertainment we expose ourselves to? Do we get extra credit if we take the lame quizzes on some DVDs? Do I get to list the 20 minutes it took me to figure out the damned menus on Memento?

Is this about winning? These have never been competitions. We do these because we love the movies and we want to share the experience with others. Again, there's nothing stopping anyone from watching DVD extras. The desire to count them just seems to miss the whole point of these challenges and turns them into just time-filling exercises. That goes for commentaries, too. You are just cheating yourself out of the experience of watching the movie and just filling an equivalent amount of time. Yeah, they are fun and informative, but when you are in a movie challenge where you are watching movies for fun and listing titles, then you should approach every film like you've never seen it before or you are revisiting an old friend, not a chore.

You could almost have a whole category for reused costumes and props from Forbidden Planet, alone.

Has he made any movies that are categorized as Sci-Fi?
I wouldn't call these three "sci-fi sub-genres." They should probably be moved up to the earlier section.

--- Watch the MST3K version of a sci-fi film.
--- Watch a film and its remake.
--- Watch a film based on a video game.
--- Watch a film based on a novel.
--- Watch a film directed by Uwe Boll.
--- Watch a film which won an Academy Award -- any category.
--- Watch a silent sci-fi film.
--- Watch a Criterion version sci-fi film.
--- Watch a film with commentary.
--- Watch a film and at least two sequels.
--- Watch a film that takes place on a holiday.
--- Watch a film that takes place in space.
--- Watch a film that takes place on or under the sea.
--- Watch an animated sci-fi film.
--- Watch a Documentary
--- Watch a Musical
--- Watch a Spoof

Sci Fi musicals, per IMDB:

The Apple (1980), Attack of the Killer Tomatoes, Eagah (for you MST3Kers), Earth Girls are Easy, Garbage Pail Kids the movie, Jetsons the Movie, The Little Prince (1974), Little Shop of Horrors, Radioactive Dreams, Rock & Rule, The Rocky Horror Picture Show, Voyage of the Rock Aliens, The Star Wars Holiday Special,

Sci Fi Spoofs:

2001:a Space Travesty, Airplane 2, Amazon Women on the Moon, Blobermouth, Flesh Gordon (and sequel), Galaxy Quest (arguably), The Incredible Shrinking Woman, Man with Two Brains, Mara Attacks, MST3K the Movie, The President's Analyst, Spaceballs, What's up Hideous Sun Demon, Young Frankenstein.

I didn't look up documentaries.

Of course there are Sci-Fi musicals (I watched Pajama Party this morning). I'm just saying that "musicals" and "spoofs" aren't "Sci-Fi sub-genres" the way "alien invasions" and "time travel" are, and would fit better with "animated films" and "silent films."

I see I could've raised the same question last October in the Horror challenge thread, but I didn't fill out the checklist back then and I guess I never read it very closely.

They are more general subgenres, admittedly. I was just demonstrating that there were enough titles to justify them. I had the Apple on my DVR from last month and didn't even know it qualified until I looked these up.

I agree about Uwe Bolle. How about Ed Wood, instead?

When I wrote my post I hadn't noticed that those three categories were also on the Horror movie checklist. Since no one objected to that list, forget I said anything about that part.

Plan 9 from Outer Space. Bride of the Monster. Are there any others?

I noticed a car crash from Thunder Road (1958) was reused in Invisible Invaders (1959). Does that count?