Jay G.

If he was talking about laserdisc prices his argument was still erroneous since other studios charged more for laserdisc releases as well.

Mike Adams

Okay, sorry folks. Just checked the list price of Life of Brian and Time Bandits, and I'm reminded that they were $39.99, not the $49.99 I thought I paid. Still, that's outrageous for a single-disc release, especially since many 2-disc SEs with as many or more bonus features are $19.99. As for $59.99 list prices, check the price of Brazil at BEST BUY. Sure, it's not a single disc, but people are saying they never list for that much, and that's definitely wrong (I see it's $57.99 online -- wow, two lousy bucks).

Since it seems like "attack Mike Adams" time again, guess I have to crawl back into my hole until all the "Cool New Members" who want to stake out some territory and all the cranky veterans who are going through holiday depression and need to put some sadistic glee back in their empty lives go away.

Mike Adams

Yeah, thanks for the benefit of the doubt Daniel, but I had indeed been mistaken on what I paid for LoB. I guess since I was $10 off, my argument that Criterion's single-disc releases are overpriced was just absolute crap. I mean, aren't all single-disc releases $40???

Mike Adams

Well if Criterion wants to break into the mainstream, they need to get their prices in line with everyone else.

What good does it do to tell me what DVDPlanet and other online retailers charge for the DVDs??? Do they still sell 2-disc SEs from other studios at the $19.99 list price??? It doesn't matter how much of a discount you get from whatever source, the list price is artificially high to begin with, and that's what we're talking about.

Let's compare apples with apples. The Criterion version of Time Bandits is only one disc that lists for $39.95, contains little more than a commentary, and sells for $25.97 at DVDPlanet, which reflects a pretty deep discount of $13.98. Anchor Bay's 2-disc DIVIMAX release lists for only $24.99, contains more bonus material, and DVDPlanet offers it for $14.99, which is $9.96 off the list price. So when you're not trying to spin the facts to support your argument, you can see what I'm talking about. It's not about how cheap you can get it, it's about what the base price is before any discounts are applied. As you can see, a single-disc Criterion DVD that starts out $39.99 is still much more expensive than an arguably superior 2-disc version from someone else, regardless of where you buy it. Add to that the fact that Criterions aren't as widely available at brick-and-mortar stores unless it's a list-price seller like B&N or Borders, and the average consumer is pretty much screwed.

Daniel L

Wow, this thread kinda sucks now I think...

Mike Adams

Hey, I'm just defending my point of view. If you've got something worthwhile to contribute, please do. Nobody's stopping you.

wergo

Consider yourself lucky if you can buy 'em domestically. Here in Canada they're imports and, back before the exchange rate got a lot closer, Criterions were insanely expensive. Back when they first came out, I paid $79.99 for 'Dead Ringers' and $129.98 for 'In The Mood For Love.' (both are currently available for about $49.98 each) I got so annoyed with the high prices that, when 'Short Cuts' came out, rather than pay the $69.98 HMV were asking for it, I ordered it from Amazon.com. And got stuck with a $45 charge from Canada Customs when it showed up at the post office! (5 weeks after I paid for it)

Mike Adams

With respect to the moderators, I'm realizing that this thread wasn't originally about Criterion titles being overpriced, and since my point of view is being ignored by almost everyone (although thanks for your contribution, wergo, this post is not a slam on what you posted), I'll drop the issue. Of course the original assertion that "if Criterion were the best, they'd do this..." was just gonna lead to some Criterion-bashing, but the dead presidents in my wallet are the only ones who have a beef with them. The debate over whether TBC is worthy of a Criterion DVD has apparently fizzled out, and while I feel that the point had to be made that it doesn't necessarily take the involvement of Criterion to get a good SE, it does seem that the thread has run its course. Maybe that's what Daniel was trying to say, I don't know. Well, on to things that matter....

Mike Adams

I was making a pretty simple point. I have no problem paying $57.99 for Criterion's Brazil set, but to pay $39.99 (or less, depending on discounts) for a single DVD that contains less bonus material than a $24.99 (or less, depending on those SAME discounts, which is also my point) 2-disc set is just plain ridiculous.

Jay G.

It's not ridiculous when you take into account that the type of films Criterion deals with are hardly the multi-million unit sellers that other studios choose to lavish 2-disc special editions one, yet Criterion still puts out a high-quality project with unique extras. It's all about the end product; I don't care if I can get a 2-disc SE of Bounce for under $10, I'd rather spend the MSRP of $40 on film and extras I actually care about, and for those who buy Criterions, the quality of the film and extras are worth the extra cost.

Mike Adams

Apparently, nothing's ridiculous when it's me saying it's ridiculous.

I just fucking said that the Criterion had fewer extras than the DIVIMAX version, and the argument about pricing hasn't a damn thing to do with whether you fucking like the film or not. OF COURSE you'd rather pay a lot of money for something you like rather than half that amount for something you don't give a shit about, but we're not talking about that, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE SAME DAMN FILM!!!

Again, I've already said that the 3-disc Brazil set is worth the price, but then there's no $24.99 equivalent that has even more bonus features, as there is with Time Bandits. If there were, I'd be much less motivated to shell out for the Criterion edition.

For the last time, why the fuck is it so entertaining to keep arguing with me, especially when you're not getting the point in the first place??? This is not about "quality" films that Criterion deals with as opposed to "ordinary movies", it's about what you get on the expensive single-disc Criterion version of the SAME FILM vs. what you get on a much cheaper and more in-depth 2-disc SE. Is that so fucking hard to understand???

utopianz14

Just because we don't agree with you does not mean we do not understand your argument. You keep on bringing up Time Bandits to make your point. To go along with your argument, I would add that the MGM releases of Silence of the Lambs and This is Spinal Tap are better and cheaper DVDs than Criterion's (depending on how much you value commentary tracks). But still, those are just two titles in an almost 400 DVD catalog.

When Criterion released their Time Bandits DVD in 1999, it was the best there was on the market, surpassing Anchor Bay's 1-disc edition, also released in 1999. If Criterion were to release the film on DVD today, I have no doubt in my mind that they would at least match Anchor Bay's 2-disc Divimax release in 2004.

With regards to pricing, the thing to keep in mind is that Criterion does not own the rights to any films they release on DVD. They have to acquire the DVD distribution rights. I wasn't able to find any information about Time Bandits, but I would guess that Criterion had to acquire the rights from Anchor Bay, just like how they had to obtain the rights from MGM for SotL and This is Spinal Tap, adding to the costs of the DVD. Someone who knows more about distribution rights can chime in to verify or refute my claim.

I think another factor to their high prices is the fact that they are a small company and they have to dedicate all their resources for long periods at a time to making each disc. They have to charge us more to make up for the high up-front costs they put into creating each DVD. That their audience for most of their releases is rather limited makes the high prices more crucial. They just can't take as many risks as, say, Warner can. Again, someone more knowledgable can toss in their two cents in this matter, but I just don't think Criterion is charging the high prices just because it wants to appear high-brow.

All that being said, I doubt that any of us can say that Criterion has ever released a DVD that pales in comparison to one that already exists on the market (region 1).

Ultimately, no one is forcing the buyer to pay for something they deem overpriced. We are free to buy what we choose. Despite my admiration for Criterion, I do own the Anchor Bay Divimax release of Time Bandits, rather than the Criterion edition, because it is the superior version. I just doubt that we'll ever see any other company release better and cheaper versions of the rest of Criterion's catalog.

Oh, and...we'll never see a Criterion release of The Breakfast Club, but we can sure dream...

Jay G.

Since you only name Brazil in your last post as an exception, I thought you were talking about Criterion's releases in general.

If your point is only that one particular Criterion is overpriced, well, so what? Every other studio has released at least one title that has been deemed overpriced by at least some. From 2-disc editions that have so few extras on the 2nd disc one wonders why it exists, to older bare-bones releases that have never dropped in price, to studios releasing 2-disc editions overseas while only giving the US a single-disc version of the same film for not any less money.

To try and condemn Criterion overall for just one release seems a little extreme.

Jay G.

Also, with Silence of the Lambs and This is Spinal Tap, the DVDs were never available at the same time, since the Criterions went OOP before the MGM SEs came out.

Time Bandits is interesting in that it's one of the films where Criterion has non-exclusive distribution rights to it. One has to wonder what limitations those rights entail. Considering that Anchor Bay had and was going to continue to distribute a DVD of the film itself, it's possible that they worked in some "non-competition" clause with Criterion, where Criterion agreed to sell their version at a specific price point. At the least there might've been a minimum price-point agreed upon. Something similar happened when Image reduced the prices on a bunch of Universal-licensed DVDs they were losing the rights to early on. Universal sued because Image was selling below a certain pricepoint they had agreed upon.

Mike Adams

Very interesting point. Where was all this constructive discussion before?

Anyway, yes, I was saying Criterions are generally somewhat overpriced, but the single-disc ones were the most glaring examples, especially TB, which AB gave us an alternative to eventually. When you take something like the "All-Access" edition of I, Robot, of which the second disc was filled with a lot of so-called "video journals" (which are probably so in vogue these days because there's minimal set up and editing involved since it's basically just raw "fly on the wall" footage) as opposed to in-depth documentaries, rare "lost" footage, and even alternate cuts of the film like you get with the Brazil set, then yeah, I don't mind paying more, especially since I'd only be buying a few titles.

Regarding your point though, it's possible, but I'm not sure AB and Criterion have any kind of agreement, although it's true that because Criterion operates in one price range and Anchor Bay another, that the two can peacefully co-exist. What frustrates me is that at least until recently, you couldn't find Criterions at most retailers -- you had to go to B&N, Borders, or some other list-price seller (I'm talking brick-and-mortar here of course). Higher DVD prices are much easier to take when you know you're not gonna have to pay every penny of the list price. Thankfully, Criterions are becoming easier to find at retail, and the prices are coming down. I'd also assume that the transition from Laserdisc would account for some early Criterion titles being single-disc, I just wish that Criterion would adjust the price accordingly.

The 2-disc Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas release lists for $39.95(according to Amazon, and yes, I know that they don't sell it for that price), and so does Time Bandits. I'd be curious to know if a greater demand for the latter is how Criterion justifies identical list prices for both a packed-with-bonus-features 2-disc set and a relatively barebones single DVD, or whether they feel that any film is worth $40 and the bonus material isn't something to base their price on. Their philosophy is what baffles me, and that's why I entered the fray based on the argument over price.

The actual on-topic part of my point has been that it really doesn't take Criterion to do a decent SE, and for every one that falls short of its potential because the studio dropped the ball, there are others out there that hit it out of the park. The fact that Criterion involves directors is probably the best thing you could possibly hope for when a Special Edition release is being planned, but any third-party company could potentially fall short of expectations when for some reason they don't have access to all the bonus material fans would like to see in an SE. Not even studios can necessarily get all the people and footage together that should be included in a good SE, but they're more likely to have access than any third party, with or without the director's involvement, unless the director legally owns the film, which is rare.

Drifting back off the topic, though, the point that obviously needs to be made here is that I don't play games in forums like this. Lately, anyone who disagrees with me has just come right out and attacked me, guns blazing, which is why I respond with a harshly-worded diatribe. I hope those people can learn from your example, because when you finally entered the discussion with constructive comments instead of throwing rocks from the sidelines, my ire receded and we're able to discuss things rationally again.

There's a hell of a lot of people on the internet who will just rip your head off if you disagree with them. I'm not one of those people. However, I do get pretty pissed off if someone's just throwing rocks and doesn't have any point of view to contribute beyond the fact that they think I'm wrong, stupid, a "drama queen" (which is really weird because I'm a straight male), or whatever.

I've said before that I'm here to "geek out" about DVDs with fellow collectors, but by that I didn't mean I'm only here to be amongst people who all agree with me. Sure, it's nice to see things the same way, and when collectors all over the world love (or hate) the same things you do, it can definitely create a sense of community. Still, the most constructive and intellectually stimulating discussion is when everyone contributes different points of view, such as a thread about how different collectors organize their collections. Everyone doesn't have to agree, but when they don't it doesn't end up in a big argument where nobody's talking about anything except who is right and who is wrong.

Maybe people are so conditioned to see things in black and white that they immediately jump on someone else who disagrees with them as if that person had made disparaging remarks about their mother, but in a forum full of supposedly intelligent people, I expect that anything I post in disagreement with what someone else has said will be countered with an actual point of view.

In looking over the posting histories of several of the people who repeatedly bash me in many different threads, the pattern I've found is that they typically "live" in areas of the forum that in my opinion shouldn't even exist at a website called DVDTalk.com, and they're usually engaged in discussions about every day gossip, sports teams, or what have you. Every so often, they tend to wander over into the main forum and rather than contribute something substantial to an ongoing discussion, they take up sides in a heated debate and have little more to say than "you're wrong", "you suck", or something similar. Why this is allowed to continue is beyond me. Membership in a DVD-centric forum should be separate from general discussion forums, and it should be limited to those who have an interest in discussing DVDs. Too often people who spend most of their time talking about whether they love or hate Justin Timberlake or whether the Falcons or the Broncos "rule" can't understand that not everything is about taking sides, and instead of booing or cheering a particular side, they should really get their asses on the field themselves and make a contribution.

I think that's all I have to say for now.

chente

This is how you entered this thread.

That's a black and white statement and makes it obvious that you don't know what the hell you are talking about.

But now you are backpedalling when challanged.

Hardly well thought out. Hardly constructive criticism

I've only ever remember reading two threads that you participated in but in. This one and the recent Laserdisc one. In each thread you called attention to yourself by making a provacative statement that wasn't thought through that you couldn't back up and cried foul loudly when someone called you on it. Then keep going on and on and on about how you are misunderstood, don't play games, etc. You seem to relish the attention and even go back to stir it up again, once everything has died down. That's what I meant when I called you a "drama queen".