You also have to ask yourself which of those list of actresses would actually spend 3 years out of their career prime to film this film which wasn't a lock to actually be this big.

I've watched the third and fourth discs, and I've read the books. Tolkien did not "jump around a lot" in his narrative at all. Each book is divided into two parts, and each of those parts is linear and does not jump around. A lot of the action you see in the movies (like all of Saruman's scenes in FOTR, and the ent attack on Isengard) are not shown in the books AT ALL but only talked about after the fact. As far as the timeline goes, the reader can very easily look this up. IIRC, the dates of all the major events are listed in the appendix.

Nothing at all wrong with option 5, but aren't 1-4 all blondes? :hscratch: And while I think some of those women are good actors, they don't seem any better for the part IMHO. I do agree that if there's a weak spot in the casting, it's Liv Tyler, but I still thought she did fine.

It does destroy the suspense in that particular moment, but the suspense still exists--it's simply earlier in the movie. While at first I also questioned the Corsairs scene for the same reason, I now appreciate it because it helps us identify with Aragorn more. Now the suspense involved is from his perspective. As for the loss of the suspense later, is it really that much of a problem? After all, that battle already has the deus ex machina of the arrival of the Rohirrim.

PJ needed to cut the scene right after Aragorn falls to his knees with a look of despair after seeing the ships.

Like duder said, the suspense was moved from scene to scene.

fairuza balk would have been a good elf

If PJ felt like he could have gotten away with it, she would have made a good Grima Wormtongue, too.

Duder,

Options 1-4 could....oh I don't know...color their hair? But that's just my crazy idea. Hell, I don't think special effects or hair make-up can top this most difficult task! Weta would be over-budgeted by meeeeellions. :)

I think you hit it on the nose.

Liv Tyler was the one who raised her hand and had nothing to lose. :(

(of course, I would imagine PJ wouldn't need the actors for the entire 3 years, since they were not Frodo, Sam, or the like. They would show up for a few weeks and then leave for a year, and then come back. Who knows, PJ could have filmed Liv's entire shots within a month and inserted them where ever he wanted.)

Since Naomi Watts is now one of PJ's main character in Kong, maybe he will find a place to put her in The Hobbit. :up:

Liv Tyler did not work for 3 years...I doubt her committment was any more than a few months spread over the course of a few years. PJ picked Tyler cause he wanted to use her...it's not that hard to fathom. There's no need to make reasons why this "mistake" was made, because quite frankly I doubt the LoTR production team or a large number of movie audiences really view the Liv Tyler casting as a mistake. I don't, I thought she performed just fine.

Nonetheless, the EE I thought was a drastic improvement. I for one loved the addition of the corsairs, as the arrival of the ghosts wasn't really suspenseful, but just a big fat deus ex machina that felt tacked on, like "we need to end the battle now, so let's have the ghosts show up" B showing the progression it really made it flow better, and made Aragorn feel like a stronger participant in the battle. In fact, many of the additions really fleshed out the issues I had with the theatrical cut. The extensions of Frodo and Sam crossing Mordor were sorely needed and really filled that gap there. Overall, a great improvement in terms of pacing, and just nice to get those extra plot elements.

Not to nit pick, but Deus Ex Machina is a literary term used when an author pulls a rabbit out of a hat, so to speak, to aid in flawed story telling. The Rohirrim can't be considered a deus ex machina, since we kNEW they were going to arrive twenty minutes into the movie, when the war beacons were lit and Theoden said that they would answer Gondors call for aid.

I'd talk about it if I could find it. Its totally sold out when I am :( Looks like a great set though

The inclusion of the "Witch King/Gandalf" scene was finally great to see, however...

as Jackson did with his beefed up "Witch King/Eowyn fight scene", he and the writers kind of tinkered with the dialogue much to the distaste of myself:

I really prefer the scene in the book:

In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl. A great black shape against the fires he loomed up, grown to a vast menace of despair. In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl, under the archway that no enemy had ever passed, and all fled before his face.

All save one. There waiting, silent and still in the space before the Gate, sat Gandalf upon Shadowfax: Shadowfax who alone among the free horses of the earth endured the terror, unmoving, steadfast as a graven image in Rath Dínen.

"You cannot enter here," said Gandalf, and the huge shadow halted. "Go back to the abyss prepared for you! Fall back into the nothingness that awaits you and your Master. Go!"

The Black Rider flung back his hood, and behold! he had a kingly crown; and yet upon no head visible was it set. The red fires shone between it and the mantled shoulders. From a mouth unseen there came a deadly laughter.

"Old fool!" he said. "Old fool! This is my hour. Do you not know Death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain!" And with that he lifted high his sword, and flames ran down the blade.

Gandalf did not move. And in that very moment, away behind in some courtyard of the City, a cock crowed. Shrill and clear he crowed, recking nothing of wizardry or war, welcoming only the morning that in the sky far above the shadows of death was coming with the dawn.

And as if in answer there came from far away another note. Horns, horns, horns. In dark Mindolluin's sides they dimly echoed. Great horns of the North wildly blowing. Rohan had come at last.

—The Lord of the Rings, Book V, "The Siege of Gondor"

I agree, the scene when Aragorn leaps from the ship got a big cheer in the theater, and I think it works better that way. I think right now I prefer the theatrical version, although I enjoy some of the added scenes (Witchking-Gandalf is a great lead in to the arrival of Rohan). But there are some I think are repetitive (more of the Frodo/Sam/Gollum trek) and some not needed (the aforementioned Corsair scene, the Orc leader attack on Eowyn AFTER she defeats the Witch King), and I'm still not sure I like how Saruman is handled. That said, I enjoyed the longer cut and the extras are great, I've no regret in this purchase.

well, on the Peter Jackson, Fran Walsh, Philippa Boyens commentary track they talk briefly how if this scene if it were to be fully integrated into the initial theatrical cut (which IMO should have never been cut in the first place), they would have fleshed this out better.

Wha wha WHAT!?!?!?!?!

I haven't watched/listened to it yet, but I can't believe that could be true. Anyone else have thoughts on this? I figured it would be a no brainer.

that was my reaction as well woofman, I haven't yet compared the Dolby Digital tracks to the DTS, but I have to say the soundmix is much more detailed and powerful than say the DTS track of "Spiderman 2".

Are you suggesting that there is a better casting choice for Wormtongue than Brad Dourif? He was born to play that role.

Yeah, because 'The Hobbit' is just bursting with choice female roles.

It really started as a theatrical term, but I digress. :) I agree that the Rohirrim were not a Deus Ex Machina, but the Army of the Dead certainly was, in both the books and the movie. I find that and the silliness at Cirith Ungol to be the worst parts of the book from a plot standpoint.

Yay for Peter Jackson's cameo!! I was afraid that there wasn't going to be one...

His first two were in the theatrical cuts, but his last cameo only made the special edition... :)

As for those who were critical of Liv's acting... huh? Little or no acting was required for this character; 95% of it consists of staring at the camera with tears in your eyes... If you hate her, fine. But this was a Hitchcock actor's kind of role-- most of the performance was the director's, not the performer's.

Actually you can see PJ in the Theatrical version of ROTK but for only a brief second.

I've read the book as well and I believe these EE's was and is the best possible version of the LOTR we'll ever see on film. These movies were made by fans of the book and its apparent when you see the documentaries. It wasn't just a job to them. (If only more blockbuster movies were made with as much passion and love for the material.) The emotions all the participants show in the documentary is a testament to that. Sure, I have a few quibbles since it didn't follow the book all the time but there are so many wonderful moments that weren't in the book or weren't possible in text form.

This movie was driven partly because they were fans themselves and partly through Kiwi spirit. Seeing all the pedantic complaints from those who are self professed authoritys on the subject just because they read it a few times only points to people's own vain attempts at self importance. The fact is these movies are loved by the majority of the people who have read the book and not just people who've never read a word by Tolkien. Its too bad that certain changes and ommissions (which should be accepted for any movie adaptation) absolutely ruins their experience. Its their loss. This story like any great folktale or myth belongs to everyone and not just those who can't just relax and enjoy a movie for what it is. PJ never said these movies is the authoritative version of the story. Its just an adaptation or "interpretation" made by people who love the book themselves.

I've enjoyed these lovingly made films immensely. Its flaws and the struggles they went through adapting this difficult book has been part of the charm.


FOTR Theatrical: 4 1/2 Stars
FOTR EE: 5 Stars

TTT Theatrical: 3 Stars
TTT EE: 4 1/2 Stars

ROTK Theatrical: 3 1/2 Stars
ROTK EE: 5 Stars


TTT and ROTK were the most difficult to adapt but the Theatrical versions just didn't work that well as a movie themselves. The EE worked most of the problems I had with the Theatrical and gave weight to many scenes that just didn't work in the Theatrical.


*One more thing. If you haven't actually read the book please don't refer to the book in your comments. Its painfully obvious to those who have.

I agree it's questionable, but I consider it a Deus Ex Machina because (a) prior to it we are fully in the perspective of those at Gondor, who do not <I>know</I> that Rohan is coming, but only hope, (b) we, as the audience, do not see the Rohirrim arrive from their perspective, but hear the horn blast just as things are at their absolute worst. It's not a D.E.M. in the sense that it's a weak fix for flawed storytelling, as the Rohirrim's arrival was set up earlier, but from the perspective we're given in the story, it sure feels like a D.E.M.

Just wanted to add that I hate the new scene with Aragorn and Palantir. "Behold the Sword of Elendil!". That was cool, but then we have to see the Arwen dream yet again, and ARagorn practically starts crying. Very Kingly, and an awkward abrupt cut to him on horseback with his Armor and newly thinned out hair. I much prefer Gimli's line "What are we waiting for!" and then the swelling music before the cut to this new version of the scene. As for the Corsair scene I already mentioned earlier, on the commentary track during the scene Peter says "We really didn't need this scene" then Boyens practically screams "No, not at all!".

I agree with the filmmakers.