RotK:EE General talk
 

The disk has been out since Tueday, but I haven't really seen much discussion about it except for the mail order box offer and a technical glitch. What does everyone thing of the movie and extras?

Favorite parts? Gripes?

Incredible. Could use some editing though. The battle scenes go on and on and on. ZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....

I agree, I wish there was a shorter version available. Cut so it would at least fit on one disk.

I have a few gripes about the EE edition, and the editing (Wolf's Head ending on Disc 1), and I would have preferred an even longer edition, because the movie is 4hrs by having so many different stories interwoven. Even at 4hrs, the movie seemed to move way too fast.

The major battle scenes should have been extended even longer due to the climax of the entire story. Great effects for sure, but I also had a problem with the lack of battle mayhem and display of blood--not that I want a total gorefest, but seeing all of the stuff that happened, and no blood on the battlefield--even orc blood, was kind of a let down. I think for a PG-13 rating, you could certainly get more in there, and I've seen some pretty gory pictures with a PG-13 rating.

And of course, all the major characters escaped with few to basically no bruises at all. I mean, come on. We could have added at least some near misses so it would fit the Tolkein saga, but it seemed as if Legolas was just an amazing gymnist, and so on. This may not be totally PJ's fault, so I'll let this go a little bit.

Also, the editing of the actual action in combant scenes (orc-on-human) was, I have to say, rather disappointing. The action was filmed so close-up in so many cases, that is was obvious PJ wanted to keep it so he could avoid actual combat scenarios--watch braveheart and the combat scenes and you'll know what I mean because here, you have full-swing action, from start to finish, versus in LOTR, where you have IMPLIED action and slicing and cutting. You see way too many instances, where the actors are about to slice an orc, and then CUT--to another battle scene. Even with a PG-13 movie, you could do something about this.

And my fave. Liv "Horse Lips" Tyler, showing up at the end. This made laugh so hard, I just couldn't take anything seriously after that appearance. Why the hell did PJ select this woman. There were many others which could have done a better job. This character could have been an opportunity for a newcomer to the movie screne, but no, we pick the worst actor available on the planet. And as far as looking like an elf, this is a joke too. Everyone else looked fine, but Liv just sucked.

I have a lot of great things to say about LOTR, but I also have a lot of things to say that are maybe irreverant, because many are saying LOTR can do wrong. Well, I have to disagree. One of these days I'll write a full review on this.

As far as it being too long, well, get a DVD changer. :up:

I thought the EE was great. LOTR EE gets my vote for best DVD of the year for the third year in a row.

I tried to start a discussion thread here but no one felt like talking, I guess.

I love the EE of ROTK has much as a man can love a movie, but theres two things that I wish were in there, that they shot, but still didn't put in. One is Denethor using his Palantir. And the other is at the end with Gimli and Legolas, Gimli showing Legolas the caves and Legolas showing Gimli the elven woods. I would have loved for those, but at least you get to see the Gimli/Legolas scene in the extras.

Actually, and I hate to admit this, but I kind of prefer the theatrical cut editing a bit more. And I do mean, editing, not the extended or new scenes. The new scenes and extensions were fine. I just didn't like the jumping around from one group of characters to another. I could have swore that during the TC, a lot of these scenes were more coherant, meaning that more of those segments played longer and so therefore flowed better. But with the EE, we get snippets of each scene over a hour period.

For example, Frodo and Sam's trek up the staircase. It seemed like this went on forever through multiple cuts back to other characters like Gandalf and Pippen, and then to Theoden, Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas. How long does it take to climb a bloody staircase.

But don't get me wrong, I loved all the extensions and new scenes, but the pace of the editing was a bit of a let down. I guess this is why PJ has always kind of said that the TC was the intended and preferred cut.

that and there is two or three other threads based soley around the box. Another thread based around a question of the gift set. So far there is a lot of "general talk" threads for LOTR on the front page alone.

Besides that... General talk about a movie usually goes into Movie talk. ;)

Days. It took a long time in the book, too. It wasn't just a mere staircase; it was a mountain.

Well, that may be, but if you watched the third disc, they make mention of why the story jumps around so much. They said it was the style of John Ronald (J.R. to you ;)) Tolkein to jump around a lot in his narrative. To tell you about one group of people, and then all of a sudden go tell you about another group of folks. So the viewer/reader is left there wondering, "Well gee, how long (of a time) between each of these events.

Granted the moutain range surrounding Mordor was high and treacherous, but because they had a staircase, it shouldn't have taken all that long, granted the staircase was extremely steep and in some cases, slanted outwards.

- Dolby sounds better than DTS
- Merry and Eowyn kicking ass felt out of place. They're not supposed to have experience. Especially Eowyn taking out the Witch King and slicing the Orc leader.
-Eomer running like a pansy after the battle
- Everything else was pretty good.

not sure if anyone felt the same, but I really dug that Mouth of Sauron scene they added back in.

As was the case for the previous versions, I prefer the EE cut to the theatrical. The gripes I have with it were relatively unchanged with the added 50 min though... Gimli's comic releif (even more in the EE) Lack of suspense during the battles - the characters acting invincible, the bloodless swords, etc... Minas Tirth and the Black Gate taking place in daylight...

Though ROTK is awesome and a great achievement, it is still my least fav out of the three.

Eowyn is the one that kills the Witch King in the book, although the scene is written in the book

I don't think you have to worry about spoiling a book that's been out for several decades. ;)

One thing I thought was bad about the new scenes is a continuity problem with the "Mouth of Sauron" scene. After Aragorn cuts his head off, and they turn around to ride back to the rest of the group, you see the doors opening further, and the orc army advancing toward the open door. But...where is the body of the headless dude, or even the horse he was just on?

http://www.livtyler.wz.cz/wallpapers..._1280_1024.jpg

Yes, that is how Jackson picked his actors. Those that look like Elves in real life. :rolleyes: Perhaps you can share with us an actress you thought would have done a better job in the role ...

My only wish was that the feature: Howard Shore: Creating "The Lord of The Rings" Symphony – A Composers Journey Through Middle-earth was included in the set. I am unwilling to purchase the premium set for (in essence) that and a glorified toy. Howard Shore's music complimented the visuals of the film so well. Then again, this is supposedly an abridged performance. Perhaps some day the entire performance will be sold as a stand-alone item. That would be terrific.

Having said that, Jackson and New Line treated us well. We can quibble abou t this and that but (collectively) the three EE sets stand unequaled.

Definately agree. Especically with Pro Logic IIx and 7.1




Stew

And there are real photos and/or factual documentation to let us know that an elf looks like what..........

Yes, that is how Jackson picked his actors. Those that look like Elves in real life. :rolleyes: Perhaps you can share with us an actress you thought would have done a better job in the role ...

Ok.

1) Gwyneth Paltrow

2) Nicole Kidman

3) Claire Danes

4) Naomi Watts

5) A new woman to make the screen? I'm sure we had many capable female actors who wanted the limited part in New Zealand and who would have looked more appropriate, and would have acted much better. :)

1-4 are all more EXPERIENCED actors, were around several years before LOTR was even made, and have a presence on the screen. Liv does not have a "resume" worth much, but since she has LOTR, this sure helped her a lot. Do me a favor and look at her acting career. Empire Records and Stealing Beauty were her best movies, in my opinion, but then she just slacked off since then. Maybe after she was considered a good actor, she just didn't try as much.

Just because LOTR is a successful and endless money pit, doesn't mean he is perfect director--it just shows how desparate we all are to finally have the Tolkien story on the screen and are willing to overlook some problematic issues of the production.

And it's also fine if you don't have the courage to question a director's choice, but I do. I am perfectly open to accepting any problems that PJ may have faced when recruiting talent for the LOTR. It could have been all the actors I cited above, were not available, and thought the LOTR would not be successful. So hey, given that problem, well, I'd accept that excuse but I'm sure Liv was damn expensive for the role, so he could have recruited some new talent for the screen.

We're not there yet. :)

But if you can justify her amazing acting abilities, then hey, let's see your justification. I already gave mine above.

I've only seen it once but I'm very happy with it. I really liked the extra hobbit footage, Eowyn's dream(it belonged to Faramir in the book), the Witch King and Mouth, and especially the buildup to the Black Gate which felt very rushed before.

There are still problems: Frodo telling Sam to "go home" and Sam just walking back down the stairs is still a load of horseshit, and I wish they left out the Corsairs scene. It completely destroys the suspense and appearance of the Army at Minas Tirith later on which becomes redundant.

Did I say anything about her acting ability? You basically said she looks nothing like an elf, and I called on you to tell us what a "real elf" should look like. We're still waiting... ;)

I will not get suckered into what a real elf looks like. But I will try:

http://www.elon.edu/pendulum/Issues/...es/a-elf_4.jpg

:D

Well, IMHO options 1-4 suck. 1 and 2 are VERY OVERRATED as far as acting "ability" is concerned. 3 isn't that much better. And, not to be nitpicky, but if you're slamming Liv for not having a "resume worth much", methinks you should take a look a Naomi's. Not much difference there. Quantity doesn't equal Quality.

You also have to ask yourself which of those list of actresses would actually spend 3 years out of their career prime to film this film which wasn't a lock to actually be this big.

I've watched the third and fourth discs, and I've read the books. Tolkien did not "jump around a lot" in his narrative at all. Each book is divided into two parts, and each of those parts is linear and does not jump around. A lot of the action you see in the movies (like all of Saruman's scenes in FOTR, and the ent attack on Isengard) are not shown in the books AT ALL but only talked about after the fact. As far as the timeline goes, the reader can very easily look this up. IIRC, the dates of all the major events are listed in the appendix.

Nothing at all wrong with option 5, but aren't 1-4 all blondes? :hscratch: And while I think some of those women are good actors, they don't seem any better for the part IMHO. I do agree that if there's a weak spot in the casting, it's Liv Tyler, but I still thought she did fine.

It does destroy the suspense in that particular moment, but the suspense still exists--it's simply earlier in the movie. While at first I also questioned the Corsairs scene for the same reason, I now appreciate it because it helps us identify with Aragorn more. Now the suspense involved is from his perspective. As for the loss of the suspense later, is it really that much of a problem? After all, that battle already has the deus ex machina of the arrival of the Rohirrim.

PJ needed to cut the scene right after Aragorn falls to his knees with a look of despair after seeing the ships.

Like duder said, the suspense was moved from scene to scene.

fairuza balk would have been a good elf

If PJ felt like he could have gotten away with it, she would have made a good Grima Wormtongue, too.

Duder,

Options 1-4 could....oh I don't know...color their hair? But that's just my crazy idea. Hell, I don't think special effects or hair make-up can top this most difficult task! Weta would be over-budgeted by meeeeellions. :)

I think you hit it on the nose.

Liv Tyler was the one who raised her hand and had nothing to lose. :(

(of course, I would imagine PJ wouldn't need the actors for the entire 3 years, since they were not Frodo, Sam, or the like. They would show up for a few weeks and then leave for a year, and then come back. Who knows, PJ could have filmed Liv's entire shots within a month and inserted them where ever he wanted.)

Since Naomi Watts is now one of PJ's main character in Kong, maybe he will find a place to put her in The Hobbit. :up:

Liv Tyler did not work for 3 years...I doubt her committment was any more than a few months spread over the course of a few years. PJ picked Tyler cause he wanted to use her...it's not that hard to fathom. There's no need to make reasons why this "mistake" was made, because quite frankly I doubt the LoTR production team or a large number of movie audiences really view the Liv Tyler casting as a mistake. I don't, I thought she performed just fine.

Nonetheless, the EE I thought was a drastic improvement. I for one loved the addition of the corsairs, as the arrival of the ghosts wasn't really suspenseful, but just a big fat deus ex machina that felt tacked on, like "we need to end the battle now, so let's have the ghosts show up" B showing the progression it really made it flow better, and made Aragorn feel like a stronger participant in the battle. In fact, many of the additions really fleshed out the issues I had with the theatrical cut. The extensions of Frodo and Sam crossing Mordor were sorely needed and really filled that gap there. Overall, a great improvement in terms of pacing, and just nice to get those extra plot elements.

Not to nit pick, but Deus Ex Machina is a literary term used when an author pulls a rabbit out of a hat, so to speak, to aid in flawed story telling. The Rohirrim can't be considered a deus ex machina, since we kNEW they were going to arrive twenty minutes into the movie, when the war beacons were lit and Theoden said that they would answer Gondors call for aid.

I'd talk about it if I could find it. Its totally sold out when I am :( Looks like a great set though

The inclusion of the "Witch King/Gandalf" scene was finally great to see, however...

as Jackson did with his beefed up "Witch King/Eowyn fight scene", he and the writers kind of tinkered with the dialogue much to the distaste of myself:

I really prefer the scene in the book:

In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl. A great black shape against the fires he loomed up, grown to a vast menace of despair. In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl, under the archway that no enemy had ever passed, and all fled before his face.

All save one. There waiting, silent and still in the space before the Gate, sat Gandalf upon Shadowfax: Shadowfax who alone among the free horses of the earth endured the terror, unmoving, steadfast as a graven image in Rath Dínen.

"You cannot enter here," said Gandalf, and the huge shadow halted. "Go back to the abyss prepared for you! Fall back into the nothingness that awaits you and your Master. Go!"

The Black Rider flung back his hood, and behold! he had a kingly crown; and yet upon no head visible was it set. The red fires shone between it and the mantled shoulders. From a mouth unseen there came a deadly laughter.

"Old fool!" he said. "Old fool! This is my hour. Do you not know Death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain!" And with that he lifted high his sword, and flames ran down the blade.

Gandalf did not move. And in that very moment, away behind in some courtyard of the City, a cock crowed. Shrill and clear he crowed, recking nothing of wizardry or war, welcoming only the morning that in the sky far above the shadows of death was coming with the dawn.

And as if in answer there came from far away another note. Horns, horns, horns. In dark Mindolluin's sides they dimly echoed. Great horns of the North wildly blowing. Rohan had come at last.

—The Lord of the Rings, Book V, "The Siege of Gondor"

I agree, the scene when Aragorn leaps from the ship got a big cheer in the theater, and I think it works better that way. I think right now I prefer the theatrical version, although I enjoy some of the added scenes (Witchking-Gandalf is a great lead in to the arrival of Rohan). But there are some I think are repetitive (more of the Frodo/Sam/Gollum trek) and some not needed (the aforementioned Corsair scene, the Orc leader attack on Eowyn AFTER she defeats the Witch King), and I'm still not sure I like how Saruman is handled. That said, I enjoyed the longer cut and the extras are great, I've no regret in this purchase.

well, on the Peter Jackson, Fran Walsh, Philippa Boyens commentary track they talk briefly how if this scene if it were to be fully integrated into the initial theatrical cut (which IMO should have never been cut in the first place), they would have fleshed this out better.

Wha wha WHAT!?!?!?!?!

I haven't watched/listened to it yet, but I can't believe that could be true. Anyone else have thoughts on this? I figured it would be a no brainer.