kgrogers1979

I think Palpatine is a clone of Sidious with the Force powers removed. That is why Yoda and Mace Windu do not sense the Force within Palpatine since he is a clone with no Force powers. I think in Episode 3, Sidious will kill Palpatine, take his name, and when the Jedi confront him, they will sense the Dark Side in him.

Also, I think Qui-Gon will be the first Force ghost. When Anakin killed the Sand People, you could hear Qui-Gon screaming "NO!" Qui-Gon was always kind of rebellious and did things his own way. Obi-Wan even said that is why he never became a member of the Council. Maybe Qui-Gon found someway to live on after death. He might come back in Episode 3 to teach this to Yoda and Obi-Wan.

Class316

So what do you consider canon?

I'm not a canon expert but I do know that Lucas personally approved both these cartoons and Shadows of the Empire.

Palpatine could still have dark force powers and not be sensed. Yoda stated that the dark side can hide its presence.

Shannon Nutt

Just the theatrical films.

Jackskeleton

Lucas has stated that whatever you see on screen is canon. He also has said that Clone Wars is canon. It's his way of connecting episode II with Episode III without wasting time in Episode III introducing characters that will be used. But for the most part, Clone wars is very canon. You should take it like this. Everything you see on screen is canon. Things you read and Expanded Universe isn't. Clone wars is not Expanded, it's bridging.

bboisvert

Can you provide a source/quote for this? To my knowledge, Lucas has always stated that ONLY the theatrical films are canon.

If he's backed off that recently, I'd be curious to see the quote.

Class316

He may have said that BEFORE thinking about making the Clone Wars cartoons.

But I find it hard to believe that he said "everything on screen" or "only the theatrocal films" are canon. Because he officially stated that Shadows of the Empire is canon.

Toad

Where are all these "official" statements?

Terrell

Source please? Lucas to my knowledge has never claimed anything in the EU is canon. In fact, nothing in the EU is canon. In fact, Lucas even ignores EU, even contradicting some things in the films. The films, and only the films are canon. He may have said the Clone War shorts are canon, but I haven't heard that. Everything in the film supercedes everything else.

As far as I'm concerned, only the films are canon. Everything else is not.

That was my assessment as well.

Jackskeleton

He did indeed say that only the theatrical films were canon BEFORE clone wars was even talked about. But he is using Clone wars to lead into Episode III. There is a difference between Clone Wars and EU. EU is just made up bullshit that the writers come up for a quick buck after.

Lucas allowed them to use the universe because he thought he was never going to go back on it with the only item they couldn't touch was the prequel time line simply because there was a chance he may do it... which he currently is. But you get the point.

Clone wars is being used as a lead in. So it's canon. The characters are being introduced in it so that they don't waste time on that in episode III since there is a lot of ground to cover.

We can really go on all day about what is canon and what isn't since Lucas really makes it vauge on what is and isn't canon. But prior to the prequels, he said that the only thing that was canon was what was on the screen.

Class316

Lucas ignores the EU? Then why are EU characters in starwars.com ?

Examples:

http://starwars.com/databank/charact...ywalker/?id=eu

http://starwars.com/databank/charact...thrawn/eu.html

Also, I'm not an EU expert but what EU stuff does he contradict in the films?

As for Shadows of the Empire, I remember reading that he recognized it, but here's something I found:

Also, Shadows of the Empire had its own line of action figures. So it's very much recognized by Lucas (and more proof that he doesn't "ignore" the EU).

Jackskeleton

But the difference between that is that whole little wall between "THE MOVIE" and "Expanded Universe" when it comes to character profiles.

And just because they have their own toys doesn't mean much. They have toys on the concept art of troopers. Doesn't make it any more real. Lucas likes to market things.


Here is this stuff:
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Misc/Canon.html

http://www.sfdebris.com/faq02.html

So pretty much follows the ST view of it all, and that is where the "only canon is what is on screen". what was written for SW was before Clone wars and Lucas expansion to the small screen. But taking the whole "on screen" method of thinking, it would be justified to say that On screen can also mean what is on television.

Class316

Star Wars was on the small screen long before Clone Wars. Example, Droids cartoon series, Holiday Special.

bboisvert

Still waiting for these statements from Lucas that the Clone Wars and Shadows of the Empire are canon...

????

Jackskeleton

those never existed if you ask Lucas. While clone wars on the other hand, is going to get another go around. see the difference?

Jackskeleton

and I'm still waiting for a statement from lucas denying Clone Wars from being canon.....


?????

Please feel free to step in and actually do some work for your own belief, will you now. I've shown you something that has "on screen" as canon. This was before clone wars, but being that clone wars was done because lucas.. again.. wanted to have something linking AotC with RotS sounds like it's canon to me. Where as Shadows of the empire was just another of those EU stories Lucas later thought was neat, but didn't personally want it to be done.

In truth, Lucas hasn't made a formal announcment on what is actually canon and non-canon when it comes to tv. Sure, the holiday special pretty much is a smear on the windsheild of his creation, but he has expressed interest to let the SW saga continue on with a potential TV show after all is said and done. Now is that canon or not? Infact, the only thing that lucas really points to as Non-canon specificlly is the books

Simply because Lucas allowed the writers to run wild with it as long as they did not touch a few very important elements which he wants to make himself. Which was Palp's rise to power, the clone wars and the fall of the Jedi. That is the only aspect the writers of the EU couldn't touch because he wanted to handle it himself.

We take the idea that lucas makes it clear that both the films on screen and the screen plays are canon. You have to think for a second. Those cartoons, they have scripts right? They are on screen.... hmmmm indeed. Till I see some formal knowledge that those are not canon, I'm sticking to believing they are canon. While along the lines of books, he has already made it clear that they are Expanded Universe stuff.

Class316

AFAIK Lucas never denied Droids or the Holiday Special existed. He only stated how much he hates the Holiday Special.

And actually, a couple of the Droids cartoons officially made it on DVD to coincide with the trilogy on DVD.

Note that the Holiday Special, despite being horribly bad, does not contradict anything.

For Shadows of the Empire, yea Lucas didn’t initially request it to be done, but once done he liked it and thought of it as linking ESB and ROTJ in much the same way he thinks of Clone Wars as linking AOTC and ROTS. Also, as I stated already many things from SOTE made it on the 97 SE. So really for all practical purposes it is as canon as the Clone Wars, even if it originated differently.

Coruscent was in SOTE before it was in any of the SW movies (though I’m not sure if it’s the first mention of Coruscent in all official SW stuff).

Jackskeleton

Problem is that it still falls under the EU. It started out as a written work and unless some screen version of it comes to past, it is still falling under the book/non-canon items.

Though, the whole idea is very loose and nothing official other than "books = no/ on scree = yes" has been stated. So it's a tough call.

bboisvert

OK, fine. But, in fairness, I'm not the one who said:

Which seems to contradict what you're saying now:

You said originally that Lucas has claimed that Clone Wars is canon. I was just asking for a source for that. Now it seems that you mistyped and were just making an assumption. No problem.

Here's a whole list of quotes from Lucas, Lucasfilm, and others on the subject of what is canonical and what isn't:

http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWCanonquotes.html

You'll see that Lucas did address TV shows to a certain extent:

"Because I'm retiring from this part of my creative life, I'm open to more TV Product. but not more feature films, the story is complete. [and any other story wouldn't be my philosophy and views,] the books are not the same philosophy as the movies."

This was from a Q&A session w/Lucas in Nov. 2003, when Clone Wars was definitely already a reality. He's basically saying the same thing he's said since day 1: The movies are canon. Everything else is just fun speculation.

The Clone Wars program didn't develop any differently than any other EU material. Someone else (not Lucas) wrote it, Lucas/Lucasfilm approved or rejected parts of it, and it went to production. Just because it is on TV rather than in print, doesn't make it less EU.

Jackskeleton

hmm, you got a point there.

Though I would still like to hear some actual reference to the clone wars cartoon as not being canon other than lumping it with "everything else" which seems to be pointing towards the books mostly.

Jackskeleton

Now that I walk away with my tail between my legs

here to answer the original question posed in this thread

spoiler ahead from episode III about sid/palp.

marioxb

Shadows of the Empire was a book? I thought it was just an N64 game? OK, yeah, I don't read books.

Hobgoblin

Yes, it was. It is also available as a graphic novel from Dark Horse.

Class316

Lucas should make Shadows of the Empire as a CGI movie. He could even get the orignial actors for the voices. That'd be cool.

LuisL

guys guys guys why all of this fighting.

LUCAS IS SIDIOUS!!!! Why do you think he has a hood on??? He wants to rule the world, we all know this.