slop101

I have a quick question that's always been bugging me:

How come Criterion puts out dvds that go right into the menus with absolutely no fuss, yet with other companies' dvds (like Dolce Vita, for example), every time you put the disc in, you have to suffer through numerous warning screens and logos that you can't skip?

ctyankee

Something that works on some DVDs - hit stop and then play and many players/DVDs will bring you to the main screen.

Overall, I really support your point.

Koch-Lorber.

I suggest deciding whether legal fools are hurting your business. I detest when those things come on the screen and if you don't think that influences my purchases ... guess again. You are selling to a select subset of DVD purchasers - where first impressions are quite important.

Ask your legal beagle to take their thumb out of his/her a$$ and prove that putting those messages up front have protected your film assets and more importantly how. You have to decide whether you want to take the Di$ney approach or the Criterion approach.

Sorry for the terse message, but this really rubs me the wrong way.

FilmFanSea

The critic from Box Office Magazine pays this disc the highest compliment yet:
and Still waiting for my copy to arrive ...

Heliosphann

I'm sticking with my MEDUSA DVD, but I did manage to aquire a copy of the Koch Lorber Bonus Feature's DVD...

I'd have probably bought the Koch Lober DVD if September wasn't the biggest DVD month for me of the last few years. I still haven't even picked up the Cassavetes box set yet... *sigh*

Captain Pike

I'm watching this disc right now and I have to say that I'm appalled by the MPEG compression. The disc suffers from severe banding. It looks over compressed, especially in lighter tones where the color bands are very pronounced. I've looked at it on two TV/DVD combinations and on my computer with the exact same results so it isn't my playback platform. What a shame, especially since the film itself is in amazingly clean condition.

baracine

This is a new one on me. What is "severe banding" exactly? Can you elaborate or describe it? I think this transfer is flawless.

theneobez

Wow, so happy to hear that this dvd delivered. Can't wait to get my hands on it.

Captain Pike

No problem. Banding occurs in regions of the image that should have a smooth gradation of color (or in the case of b&w, gray tones) but instead show stripes of color progressing through the tonal range. It's a feature of bad MPEG compression.

La Dolce Vita shows this effect throughout the entire film but it's really noticeable in the first 20 minutes. The most noticeable example is in the scene where Marcello's wife

Look at the walls of the apartment as Marcello walks across the room. They're so banded that the picture seems to ripple as the image moves.

The banding gets better as the film progresses but it never goes away. Again, the worst section is the first 20 - 30 minutes.

Another problem with the image on this release is edge enhancement. There's far too much of it. Black objects on a white background have a sharp, thick line of edge enhancement around them that makes them look as though they're glowing. Shame.

After watching the entire film I'd say that the transfer isn't as bad as I originally thought but it's far from Criterion standard. The edge enhancement and the bad compression artifacts (banding) mar what would have been a perfect release IMO.

For examples look at the wall behind Marcello between 19:16 and 19:26.

I don't have a screen cap utility or I would post some sample images. If I can get the correct software I'll post some later on today.

seymouru

I think I see what you mean. Here's a screen cap from 19:17, captured using PowerDVD. You can see some banding in the upper left of the frame, although the BMP file that PowerDVD generates masks it somewhat. There's also some noise in the shadow of the door.

La Dolce Vita frame 19:17

Captain Pike

You can see some of it in that image. It gets worse as he crosses the room with bands on the wall to the right and left.

baracine

Thank you for all your hard work, guys, but frankly, my dears, although I can see banding in seymouru's screen cap, this banding is totally absent when I play that same scene, even in slo mo and even in torch mode, on my Toshiba rear-projection 40-inch TV screen (my DVD player is a Denon progressive scanning). It does appear however very slighly on the right wall when Marcello joins Emma in the corridor where she is kneeling and moaning, one second later... I would never have noticed it as it lasts less than a second and really looks realistic (like something the lighting would naturally do in that part of the apartment, maybe because of the unevenness of the wall when the camera is moving). I think those artefacts are only visible on computer screens for some reason that may or may not have to do with a temporary lack of memory.

Captain Pike

Well, I've played in on my computer, on an RCA, a JVC and a Panasonic DVD player through various TVs including a 46 inch widescreen and the banding shows on all of them.

If I had a place to post images I could upload some caps.

Captain Pike

The banding is a little hard to spot on still images but it jumps right out when the picture is in motion. Here are some caps that should give you an idea of what's wrong.

Examples:

1) note the gradation on the wall to the right of the figure.



2) Another example showing banding on the wall and door to the left of the figure. Note also the edge sharpening on where the black of his suit overlays the gray of the wall.



3) Yet another example of banding and sharpening.



4) This is one of the most obvious digital compression artifacts. Look at the sky above the airplane. It should be a nice even gray. There are three distinct bands of color, each with blocky digital edges. A clear example of bad MPEG compression.

cfloyd3

I just watched this tonight since I just recently got it in the mail. It does have this banding issue that was discussed here as I noticed it quite easily in the final shots with the girl talking to Marcello. Very evident to me there, but that was when I was close to the television. A little difficult to see these things when you have a good distance between you and the television. It is definately there though as Captain Pike discussed.

Captain Pike

I'm seeing it very clearly but I do have a 46 inch TV so that may be why I notice it so much. I think it boils down to bad MPEG compression which is a shame since the film is so beautifully restored. I wonder if they had problems fitting all the data on the disc? The film is very long and there are several audio tracks in addition to the commentary. If it was a space issue I wish they'd ditched the 5.1 remix. I would have been quite happy with a better transfer and the original soundtrack alone.

baracine

This is still not the picture I see, even when I push the sharpness all the way up and disconnect progressive scanning, turn on the torch mode, increase the contrast and sit up close and modify the black level. There is absolutely nothing I can do to make the picture look anything but gorgeous at all times...

Coral

I don't think everyone will see the MPEG compression, as some DVD players will handle it better than others.

I've heard complaints about other DVDs with the same issue, and couldn't recreate it on my player.

I should have my copy on Monday, so I'll see if it shows for me.

baracine

No, wait... I was able to recreate the effect of the screen capture of Emma's head on a back-lit wall, but the "banding" is much more subtle and graded than in your screen capture and lasts only 1/24th of a second. Furthermore, it is only visible when I freeze-frame the picture, and not at all in motion. As for the sky behind the waving Sylvia getting off the airplane, no banding, just a tiny wisp of pixillation in one image (1/24th of a second). I attribute my inability to see any of those artefacts in all their overcompressed glory to the fabled comb filters of my Toshiba rear-projection TV, which were reportedly invented to compensate for just such an "emergency".

ctyankee

Seems to me that Captain Pike has talked the talk and walked the walk with his compelling screen captures.

Anyone that wants to refute that better bring their own captures (of the same images) to the party.

It would be a shame if Koch - Lober's efforts were hurt by not splitting the long film into two different discs. As it has been reported that an incremental disc to a DVD package cost less than one dollar - it would be a shame if this product was compromised for less than a buck.

Coral

Baracine can't recreate it on his setup, does that make him wrong? It sounds like it'll only effect certain setups, which means there's nothing to refute.

baracine

There are still two things I haven't tried, though, and that is to replace my component video cables with the old fashioned RCA connection and to dust my screen with fine lead particles. I'll be sure to give it a try.

Also, those who posted screen caps have to admit that the screen caps show much more exaggerated banding than what they actually see on the screen since one of them (Captain Pike?) says that the banding is mostly visible in motion and not in freeze-frame - which is exactly the reverse of what happens with my set-up.

Captain Pike writes (about the Emma capture): "note the gradation on the wall to the right of the figure", when the screen capture shows Northern lights-type banding all over the place, left and right. What gives?

The issue also rests with the screen capture software which obviously can be made to enhance the effect for demonstration purposes, or can be overloaded with information from the original. What if the banding effect can be recreated with too much information as well as with too little information?

Also, take another look at dvdbeaver's magnificent screen captures of three different editions. All caps show some form of banding or zoning (watch the cheeks of the characters in every frame and the wall to the right of "Marcello behind bars"). In other words, screen caps can give you a rough idea of the quality or fidelity of a transfer, but they can't recreate it entirely as a viewing experience, that is: as it is visible on good playback equipment - and in motion.

Captain Pike

I pointed out the area to the right because it showed the most pronounced example of the effect. I see it all around her like a halo too.

I assure you, my screen cap software is not to blame here. I chose grabs that most closely resemble the images I'm seeing on my two TVs and through my two DVD players. If anything the screen cap software is de-emphasizing the banding, not enhancing it.

It's not the screen cap software. This is what I'm seeing on my TV. The issue exists. It's clearly over compression.

Oh, and my connection is component, progressive from a Pioneer DVD player to a Samsung DLP TV in one case and s-video from an RCA player to a Zenith tube TV in the other. The banding and compression artifacts are easily seen on both setups as well as on my computer.

seymouru

I said yesterday:Captain Pike said today:Our independent observations would seem to confirm that the screen caps aren't misrepresenting the problem.

FilmFanSea

I have a Denon 1600 player in progressive scan mode and a DLP front projector (InFocus) projecting an approximately 2 feet by 5 feet image at the 2.35:1 ratio.

That said, I can only see the compression artifacts (described & shown above) if I get very close to the image (2-3 feet). From a normal viewing distance (9-10 feet), the picture quality is excellent, except for some mild edge enhancement halos.

Overall, I'm quite pleased with the image. Depending on your set-up, your mileage may vary.

FilmFanSea

The DVD Savant weighs in: