Since I'm tired and this is a pretty good summation of what I was trying to get at anyway, so I'll just go with "What he said"

As for the Snow Dogs parallel - well, that's not the same thing at all. Snow Dogs was probably cropped and edited at the studio whim. That's probably not what the director wanted, so it was an outside vision imposed upon him. (I say probably because I'm betting that this is indeed the case. If I'm wrong and the director indeed wanted a cropped, panned, scanned and edited version of his film, well then we'll talk)

True Like Snow Dogs, the current CE3K DVD is not the theatrical version. However it *IS* what Steven wanted. That's his final vision on the film and not something imposed upon him by the studio.

And yet - nobody calls Spielberg a money grubbing sell out who raped their childhood and is depriving The World Of This Classic Film Forever.

The current cut of Star Wars is the vision that Lucas wanted and not the vision he was forced to compromise on because of technical limitations. And yet, everyone is jumping all over him for being a festering maggot on the ass-cheek of humanity for it.

**THAT** is the double standard. Roll your eyes all you want, but it's the truth.

nice.

I don't get what the whole desperation for the 'original' trilogy is.

And the 'Greedo shooting first' thing....

and the...

Me, I can't wait.

this was posted last week, but still good news

Last week was just a rumor, this week it's a rumor with potential.

I'm only fairly interested in The Empire Strikes Back. If it is not available on it's own, i'm not interested at all.

I doubt it will be. for the most part the trilogy hasn't been sold seperatly for a while.

Someone was clearly asleep the entire time the running rumor was that the original cut of E.T. would never be on DVD.

Again, a movie is a movie is a movie. Either they are all of the same worth when it comes to preserving their original forms, or they are not. Either Snow Dogs is just as deserving of that preservation as Close Encounters, or you're saying that it is up to us as movie-lovers to decide which we personally feel deserve that preservation and want to defend, and so there's no double standard at all, no matter how many movies you list. If I should be required to defend Close Encounters, you should be required to defend Snow Dogs. It makes no difference to me whether Close Encounters has spaceships in it or not.

Funny how your insistence that there is a double standard at work here is itself a double standard. Rant, rave, and be as vulgar as you want, but that's the truth.

And here's that straw man again! Hey, jump on the people who are jumping on him for being a festering magggot on the ass-cheek of humanity, but I've done absolutely nothing of the sort in this thread or elsewhere, so it is of absolutely no use to say that to me. All I've said is that I would like the original trilogy on DVD, and with good reason. Every time you use that as some sort of support for your argument with me, you prove that you're either not reading the thread or that you'd rather just make up whatever is easiest for you to argue against than deal with that which is actually being said.

Thanks for the "truth." Preach it, brotha!

damnit, i just shelled out 25 bucks for the se trilogy on vhs last week.

i prefer special edition

Wow. Lots of discussion, nothing said.

It will be the SE versions. Is there any other answer? The only real news is that he's putting it out before Ep 3 instead of after. Otherwise, no news, he'd said long ago that he'd eventually put 4-6 on DVD. How could he not? I'm sure I'll buy the SE, I always wanted a copy but refused VHS (won't even WATCH my dad's copy) and never got around to the Ebay crapshoot for LD. So it's good news. I guess.

In the remote possibility that he actually puts the OT on DVD, it will suck. He doesn't have good copies anymore, the best he'd do is copy from the LDs or something.

Do I give a rats ass about Snow Dogs? You're right - I dont really care one way or another.

Yes, Snow Dogs got the shaft. It should be released un-panned and un-scanned. This was not how the director intended it to be seen. It was a studio decision to present it like that.

Close Encounters as it stands now is how Steven (you know - the director) wanted it. No studio interfearance was involved in the cut.

That is why Snow Dogs is an apple and CE3K is an orange. You can't compare them in this example.

So I guess you're new here, huh? That or you never read any of the star wars threads. Lucas is being accused of everything short of killing Kennedy and raping his corpse on national TV.

Did I say YOU. No. But it is a view that's held by a great many people here. This is just one more of Lucas's 'crime against humanity'.

Well i've pretty much come to the conclusion that i'll buy the SE version on dvd and just edit out the "Greedo shoots first" frames and re-burn it for myself.

How can you only be interested in the middle chapter of a story that doesn't even resolve its storylines and ends with a cliffhanger? It would be like only owning The Two Towers. The characters are already established, a lot happens, and the story is still going on at the end.

Yes, Empire is the darkest and probably "best" movie of the OT, but it's hardly a stand-alone movie.

Ok, anyone who literally takes it to this extreme needs to branch out and pick up some other interests.

There's nothing wrong with thinking it sucked. I'm sure there're movies you think sucked that other people love. Objectively 'enjoyable' movies are pretty rare if one even exists. It's a fairly subjective area.

See above.

I think a good deal of Lucas' decisions are greatly influenced by the $. Not saying he doesn't also do what he wants (if he was in it solely for the money we'd already have 2 or 3 versions of the ot on dvd already), but the man's a marketing machine and to say profits have no impact on his artistic output seems a bit naive. He obviously creates his "art" hoping it to be something the masses will buy.

What's so wrong with this? As I've said before in the thread, some of us just don't enjoy the SEs. If I had to guess, I'd say I've probably seen the movies 20 to 25x each, granted, most of the viewings were as a child. Still, I'm familiar enough with them that when watching the SEs, all the pointless (adjective used imho of course) additions constantly pulled me out of the story. Also, on top of the extra stuff distracting me, I found most of it to be to the detriment of the movies on a whole. If Lucas releases a version of his art that I don't enjoy watching, I'm not going to waste my money on it. I don't know why this is so hard for people to understand and why it bothers some of them so much. I also happen to think it's a perfectly relevant topic to have in a thread discussing what will be on the dvd release.

I've never heard anyone say this, but I'm not on here as much as I was a couple years ago, so maybe there's a group of people that feel this way and I've missed it. If so, I agree with you that it's a silly reason not to buy a movie.

I'm not going to go back and reread the whole thread, but I don't remember this comparison even being made. Come to think of it, the same goes for several other of your above points.

It's only good news for people who enjoy watching the SEs. For those of us that enjoy Star Wars, but not the SEs, it's not good news.

Say Chris Nolan had only released a dvd containing a chronologically correct version of Memento and revealed that the original version was not his true vision but just a gimick the producers insisted on. I imagine the people who vocalized their decision not to buy it would not have faced such hostility as people the people who don't like the Star Wars SEs.

Why is there such a need to bash people who prefer Lucas' "rough cuts" and think his "finished product" isn't much fun to watch? Does Lucas pay you people or something?

I don't think that he was referring to comments made in this specific thread, but ones that he was anticipating, based on historical posting patterns.It's funny that you should phrase it that way, because "we people" (who are, in fact, unpaid ) tend to come out to defend Lucas and his work from the OT devotees. You will find many of us in support of an OT release, but don't think that Lucas owes it to anyone. I rarely have seen anyone bashing the OT or its fans . . . on the other hand, often see people bashing the SE's and their fans.

What you may see is SE's supporters getting insensed by coments like "raped my childhood", "owes it to us", "once he relased the movies, he no longer owned them", and other nonsense such as that.

No, there are no apples or oranges here, there are only movies. There is no difference between any of them in this example, no matter how much you may wish it were so for the good of your own rhetoric.

They're all movies with an original form. It makes no difference who it was that altered them from that form - studio or director or whoever - when discussing the value of preserving the original theatrical presentations of movies. Regardless of who picked up the scissors, in any case where a movie is altered for video release, they all stand on equal ground because the theatrical presentation is withheld from public consumption (on that format, and possibly into the future as older releases become obsolete).

Who did the editing may make a difference to you when it comes to making your own personal decision as to which is the "right" presentation, and one can even make an argument that it makes an objective, absolute difference as to what is the "right" presentation (if there is one), but it makes not an ounce of difference to the fact that the original presentation is not available. That is an inalterable fact.

That's why everything's an apple in this thread, and the unavailability of Snow Dogs in its original form should be as important to you as the unavailability of Close Encounters in its original form (that is, only as long as you persist that the unavailability of Close Encounters in its original form must absolutely be as important to me as the unavailability of Star Wars in its original form, or else I'm a hypocrite applying a double standard to George Lucas; I don't hold to such simplistic views, I'm just trying to help you see how silly they are).

Then exactly what relevance does it have to the conversation you're having with me, besides giving you the periodic opportunity to puff yourself up with a sense of superiority? Since you're addressing no one but me here, I must assume that that characterization of an opinion was for my benefit, and then it is the very definition of a straw man.

Yes, some people use that argument, but I never have. So, until you can quote me a place where I did use it, continually tearing down that argument in discussions with me serves no purpose but to weaken everything else you say.

Hmm . . . how does a discussion involving multiple people in an open thread on a public forum translate into a conversation just "with you"?

As for the rest of your argument . . . I think that you are generalizing a bit to much. Saying that there are no difference between movies is like saying that all food is the same. McDonalds Happy Meals and a homemade, organic, low-fat dinner are both food, and people may have a preference for one over the other, but it doesn't mean that the first one is just as wholesome and good for your body as the second one.

Similarly, while Snow Dogs, Close Encounters Of The Third Kind, and the Star Wars series are all movies, SD (as you seem to be ready to admit) is on a different level from the other two. I have no doubt that there may be some people that like it as much as or, conceivibly, prefer it to the other two, but their preference does not take away from the fact that CEOTTK and SW contain elements that make them cinematically superior and more important to the area of film. However, that gap is smaller in between CEOTTK and SW and so it is more reasonable to think that there would be a stronger level of importance placed on them both in comparision to SD. However, the zeal and attitudes of movie fans seem to be heavily slanted towards attacking perceived problems with SW at a level far higher than with CEOTTK. That inconsistancy, given that they are on the similar level within the world of cinema (once you have dug a little deeper than them being "movies"), is where the double standard is perceived.

Simply by his previous two posts quoting either me or your responses directly to me. Kabong's most recent posts in this thread have been statements to me, not general musings into the ether for the benefit of no one in particular. Anyone who can so clearly see the objective differences in the values of different movies should certainly be able to see that.

As for the rest of your post - more obfuscation. Bottom line, when it comes to a movie's original theatrical presentation, the situation is binary. Either it is in its original form, or it isn't (ignoring nitpicks like, "Do you watch your DVDs on a theater-size screen?"). Whatever value you may place on the original forms of those movies is wholly immaterial to the conversation, no matter how many different ways you try to say that Star Wars and Close Encounters are better than Snow Dogs. Again: They're all movies that have been altered.

If not caring about Close Encounters necessarily makes me a hypocrite, not caring about Snow Dogs makes Kabong one, too.

If you 2 guys want to have a "chat" and fight out your differences, then why the heck don't you use some chat software and bitch each other out instead of making us other forum members read your 2 opinions - which, I might add, - have become quite far removed from the original intent of the thread! Or, better yet, call each other on the phone and call each other names!!

If you don't like it, don't read it . . . contrary to your above statement, nobody is making you do anything.

I reply to statements that other people have made on a regular basis . . . doesn't mean that I am not "speaking to the group" as well. But . . . to cure any confusion . . . "Anyone who would like to take part in this conversation, I welcome your thoughts, concerns, and inputs. Please do not feel like you are not included in our little discussion. Talk to you soon and have a nice day!"El-Kabong . . . are you willing to accept that you have a double "standard" regarding Snow Dogs and the movies that you mentioned, because you are not rattling swords regarding the original theatrical presentation of Snow Dogs? It seems to be a the only way to end this.

Yes, of course the statement itself was open for all to read, but it was directed at me, as the rest of the preceding post was directed at me.

But good for you for latching onto that one and introducing yet another level of tedium to the discussion. It really needed it.
No, it's certainly not the only way out, but it doesn't surprise me that you think it is. He could also, of course, back off his assertion that my not caring about Close Encounters makes me a hypocrite.

For whatever it's worth, I'll only buy the original cut of the original trilogy. I've given Lucas enough of my money as it is, and don't plan to do so for the SE again, digital format or not.

So wait a second - you're saying that NO director ever has the right to go back and make changes, clean up bad effects or otherwise improve his movie. That movies are set in stone forever and ever, never to be touched again.

So, did you burn your Indiana Jones boxed set? I mean they did clean up the reflection of the cobra in the glass after all.

But if it makes you feel any better, I'm willing to re-classify you from hypocrite to merely deluded. And since it seems that you need clarification on statements to you vs the general public: you're merely deluded, everyone is still clinging to a double standard in wanting to crucify Lucas.

You and I were holding a conversation, yes, but the comments within were directed to everyone. I would have figured that statements like

or. . ..

would be a clear indicator that I was speaking to and about the anti-lucas/anti-SE/Luca$ Ran Over My Dog camp in general.

I've never had a problem with my standard, double or otherwise. I have no problem with Lucas releasing the Special Edition only - I've got my laser discs if I need a "Greedo shooting first" fix. I don’t really miss the old CE3K edition, so I'm happy with the current edition. I don’t care for Blade Runner, so the Directors Cut Only version is meaningless to me. So, nope - I'm not a hypocrite. I'm comfortable with my outlook.

But yes, if it shuts people up - fine. I'll go with whatever you say.