How does DTSES and DDEX work on a 5.1 system?
03-27-01 | 02:06 AM
#26
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From: Long Island
Originally posted by DVD_O_Rama
My experiences with ES/EX have been limited to say the least. I am currently have been using a Sunfire Theater Grand II, amplified with a Sunfire Cinema Grand (soon to be replace by a Cinema Grand Signature, or perhaps the Theta Dreadnuaght), and when ES/EX made it's big splash a while back, I was dead set on getting an ES/EX unit, only to find that there were only two models that did dts ES Discrete at the time- of course the Denon 5800 and 3801. The 3801 was dimissed quickly, so after hearing the hype on the Denon, I got a unit from my dealer to audition in my home. I have never been a big fan of receivers, and even after hearing what is arguably the best receiver currently available, I still am not.
The sound on the 5800 was not horrible, quite the opposite in fact, but not up to par with the Sunfire. It was the ton of useless 'bells and whistles' that I could live without. Personally, I don't need my 2 channel music to be bastardized by some DSP that simulates a 'hall' by drenching it in digital reverb.
There are many other reasons I passed on the Denon as well, but the actual lack of software as of late clinched it for me. I see no need in investing that much in something there is no software for. I remember this same discusssion when dts hit a while back, and there was nothing available at the time, so perhaps ES/EX material will be bountiful one day as well, and there will be more then a handful of titles available.
One thing...when you said "So I don't know where your information comes from, but it is (as usual!) confusing.
"...
Any 'inforamtion' I gave was from my readings (which I listed the sources of, so you could try reading them for yourself). You said it's not up to you to 'jugde' reviewers, and I didn't expect you to, I just was curious to how you felt about what was written (that one speaker is possible for EX/ES use). You seemed to gloss over that, for whatever reason.
Don't know what you find 'confusing' about anything I said, as anything I said was either quotes from recent magazine articles, or my personal experiences. As I said, maybe you know something we don't. Enjoy your EX set-up. Maybe if you pay them enough, THX will give you a little plaque or soemthing; you sound very loyal to their guidlines.
BTW, I guess you aren't a fan of dts ES Discrete, as it has nothing to do with THX?
Originally posted by exm
My question to you is: what are your experiences?
One extra point (after some extensive researh) that I noticed: in the 'theater' world there is such a thing as a single rear channel while for home theater use THX added an extra rear channel for improved steering. So I don't know where your information comes from, but it is (as usual!) confusing.
[Edited by exm on 03-26-01 at 06:22 AM]
My question to you is: what are your experiences?
One extra point (after some extensive researh) that I noticed: in the 'theater' world there is such a thing as a single rear channel while for home theater use THX added an extra rear channel for improved steering. So I don't know where your information comes from, but it is (as usual!) confusing.
[Edited by exm on 03-26-01 at 06:22 AM]
The sound on the 5800 was not horrible, quite the opposite in fact, but not up to par with the Sunfire. It was the ton of useless 'bells and whistles' that I could live without. Personally, I don't need my 2 channel music to be bastardized by some DSP that simulates a 'hall' by drenching it in digital reverb.
There are many other reasons I passed on the Denon as well, but the actual lack of software as of late clinched it for me. I see no need in investing that much in something there is no software for. I remember this same discusssion when dts hit a while back, and there was nothing available at the time, so perhaps ES/EX material will be bountiful one day as well, and there will be more then a handful of titles available.
One thing...when you said "So I don't know where your information comes from, but it is (as usual!) confusing.
"...
Any 'inforamtion' I gave was from my readings (which I listed the sources of, so you could try reading them for yourself). You said it's not up to you to 'jugde' reviewers, and I didn't expect you to, I just was curious to how you felt about what was written (that one speaker is possible for EX/ES use). You seemed to gloss over that, for whatever reason.
Don't know what you find 'confusing' about anything I said, as anything I said was either quotes from recent magazine articles, or my personal experiences. As I said, maybe you know something we don't. Enjoy your EX set-up. Maybe if you pay them enough, THX will give you a little plaque or soemthing; you sound very loyal to their guidlines.
BTW, I guess you aren't a fan of dts ES Discrete, as it has nothing to do with THX?
On to the topic: I agree with all your point concerning receivers. Before I bought the Lexicon I had the Marantz AV-600/5xMA-500 pre/power combination and I wanted DD/DTS (the AV-600 is a THX DPL Unit). At that time I listened to the Denon AVC-A1 (European 5800) and the Onkyo DS-939. While the movie performance was excellent, the music performance was so poor ('digital' is the correct term I guess). So I decided to stick with my combination. After some research I listened to a Lexicon DC-1 (at that time WITHOUT EX/ES) and I was blown away by it's performance. You mention DSP modes which are aweful for music: I agree UNTIL... you've heard Lexicon's Music Logic. This is IMO the ONLY DSP-mode on the market being able to reproduce a valid alternative to 2-Channel (DPL II is based on similar coding techniques). To be honest, I never listen to 2-channel anymore!
Now, the other advantage of the Lexicon has always been upgradability. Lexicon was the first to announce EX/ES so I immediately bought the upgrade for $100. Lexicon already supports 7 channels by itself so it was only a chip swap. The only thing the Lexicon is missing is Discrete ES. You know what? I don't care less. The only difference between discrete ES and Matrix ES is that with discrete ES the channel is carried on a seperate channel while matrix has to decode it. There's no such difference as quality since matrix is just as full-range as discrete! The fact that I think like this about ES Discrete has nothing to do with the fact that it isn't THX. Although, my Lexicon supports THX ES... Oh well!
Guess my dedication for THX goes way back to the time when they were really special. When you had a THX-approved laserdisc running in THX cinema which was and is far superior to DPL. I have to agree that, like everything nowadays, THX is being controlled by commercial benefit instead of creating the best possible experience at home. I am also disappointed by a lot of THX-products. But I still trust them enough to know that the THX logo on front of my Lexicon means something.
I do expect that the next Lexicon upgrade will include DPL II and DTS Discrete...)
Mark
PS: a comment on TOAD's posting: IMO you can wait as long as you like. You can buy a 1 Ghz computer now for $1000. A year from now that's probably a 2 Ghz. It's the same in the audio industry. Of course there will be a successor to ES/EX, to DVD and all other emerging technologies. But I want to enough all technologies as long as I can and if I'm still in the position to afford new technologies when they come out, I buy them. Oh, I still have my 'extinct' Laserdisc player which I enjoy a lot (not to mention when I play the Star Wars Trilogy in DD5.1)
03-27-01 | 02:13 AM
#27
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From: Long Island
Originally posted by Jeff Helmes
I have been quite satisfied by 5.1, and thought that EX and ES were overkill. However I'm now starting to really like the idea of steering sound directly behind your head rather than simply to the sides. Imagine the bullets and explosions passing right THRU you, from front center to the rear center speakers.
Here's a couple articles that sold me on EX/ES sound: http://hometheater.about.com/gadgets.../aa061400a.htm
and http://www.homecinemachoice.com/fram...199912EX.shtml
The THX logo does not impress me, especially after hearing a THX-certified Dell computer. The Altec Lansing speakers sounded pretty good for a computer, but hardly stereophile quality. Hopefully the THX royalty requirement will soon be dropped to provide an affordable DD-ES receiver.
I'm also getting excited for DPL2. I look forward to effectively using all of my speakers while listening to music or watching TV. Getting "near 5.1" sound from a current TV broadcast would be great indeed. Check out http://www.widescreenreview.com/attr...qrevdolby.html and http://hometheater.about.com/gadgets.../aa062900a.htm and http://www.hometheatersound.com/features/soundoff/
So how about it Denon, a 3801-x with DD-ES & DPL2?
I have been quite satisfied by 5.1, and thought that EX and ES were overkill. However I'm now starting to really like the idea of steering sound directly behind your head rather than simply to the sides. Imagine the bullets and explosions passing right THRU you, from front center to the rear center speakers.
Here's a couple articles that sold me on EX/ES sound: http://hometheater.about.com/gadgets.../aa061400a.htm
and http://www.homecinemachoice.com/fram...199912EX.shtml
The THX logo does not impress me, especially after hearing a THX-certified Dell computer. The Altec Lansing speakers sounded pretty good for a computer, but hardly stereophile quality. Hopefully the THX royalty requirement will soon be dropped to provide an affordable DD-ES receiver.
I'm also getting excited for DPL2. I look forward to effectively using all of my speakers while listening to music or watching TV. Getting "near 5.1" sound from a current TV broadcast would be great indeed. Check out http://www.widescreenreview.com/attr...qrevdolby.html and http://hometheater.about.com/gadgets.../aa062900a.htm and http://www.hometheatersound.com/features/soundoff/
So how about it Denon, a 3801-x with DD-ES & DPL2?
If, and I say IF, you have a room large enough EX/ES DOES add an extra dimension exactly as you gave an example for.
One thing (as I posted earlier): don't go blind for DTS Discrete since DTS Matrix can decode all Discrete DVD's and it's very doubtful that you'll hear the difference. The reason why I bring this up is the fact that I think that a lot of people buy the Denon's for discrete while their musical performance is lacking.
The example you gave about THX clearly states what I wrote earlier that THX is becoming to commercial and that they disappoint me with some products. A THX-speaker for your computer: go back in time (let's say 5 years) and say the same thing. I think you would be the Steve Martin of that time.
About DPL2: I've been enjoying Logic 7 on my Lexicon, which reproduces a 7-channel surround system similar to DPL2. Some Lexicon experts already compared the two systems and they seem to perform on the same level. If that's true than DPL2 will blow you away. Definitely 10000000x more important than getting Discrete ES over Matrix ES/DPL2.
03-29-01 | 05:13 AM
#28
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From: Long Island
Some more info:
http://www.homecinemachoice.com/fram...199912EX.shtml
Especially notice the following column:
Surround EX equipment will provide two Surround Centre channels, THX call them 'Surround Back Left' and 'Surround Back Right' in addition to what
we now recognise as Surround Left and Surround Right. The two Surround Back channels will each have their own set of output level and time
alignment adjustments plus the ability to select a suitable crossover option, sending either full-range signals to the Surround Back channels or
employing a standard THX low-cut filter at 80Hz. It's also worth noting at this point that just as with existing Centre, Subwoofer and Surround
channels, the option of None will be available and decoding adapted appropriately, for example if one purchases Surround EX equipment but cannot
accommodate the additional loudspeakers needed right away.
Why two Surround Back loudspeakers? There are two reasons for this. Firstly, if the THX 5.1 EX mode is selected but the software being played isn't
EX encoded, the results are more predictable for the listener, or more acceptable if you will, than if one loudspeaker were used. Secondly,
manufacturers of EX equipment will have more scope to experiment with seven-channel implementations of other movie and music modes. This is
nothing new to the likes of Meridian and Lexicon, but will come as a shock to those firmly entrenched with five channels.
[Edited by exm on 03-29-01 at 04:31 AM]
http://www.homecinemachoice.com/fram...199912EX.shtml
Especially notice the following column:
Surround EX equipment will provide two Surround Centre channels, THX call them 'Surround Back Left' and 'Surround Back Right' in addition to what
we now recognise as Surround Left and Surround Right. The two Surround Back channels will each have their own set of output level and time
alignment adjustments plus the ability to select a suitable crossover option, sending either full-range signals to the Surround Back channels or
employing a standard THX low-cut filter at 80Hz. It's also worth noting at this point that just as with existing Centre, Subwoofer and Surround
channels, the option of None will be available and decoding adapted appropriately, for example if one purchases Surround EX equipment but cannot
accommodate the additional loudspeakers needed right away.
Why two Surround Back loudspeakers? There are two reasons for this. Firstly, if the THX 5.1 EX mode is selected but the software being played isn't
EX encoded, the results are more predictable for the listener, or more acceptable if you will, than if one loudspeaker were used. Secondly,
manufacturers of EX equipment will have more scope to experiment with seven-channel implementations of other movie and music modes. This is
nothing new to the likes of Meridian and Lexicon, but will come as a shock to those firmly entrenched with five channels.
[Edited by exm on 03-29-01 at 04:31 AM]
