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The One And Only HDDVD vs. Blu-Ray Thread
I don't see anything on the first page, and it seems like the time is getting close to where we ought to have a sticky on this subject.
Brief outline of the two General Specifcations - Blu-ray: Storage Capacity - Pre-recorded Playback Material (BD-ROM): Single-layer (25GB) - Dual-layer (50GB) Storage Capacity: Home Recording (BD-R/BD-RE): Single-layer (25GB) - Dual-layer (50GB) Data Transfer Rate: 36 MBPS (Megabits per Second) - This exceeds the 24 MBPS transfer rate used by HDTV broadcasts. Disc Properties: New format requiring retooling and/or construction of new disc manufacturing and replication plants. Video Specifications: Compatible with full MPEG2 Encoding, as well as MPEG4. Audio Specifications: Incorporation of both Dolby Digital Plus and DTS-HD. General Specifications - HD-DVD Storage Capacity - Pre-recorded playback material (HD-DVD-ROM): Single-layer (15GB) - Dual-layer (30GB) Storage Capacity - Home Recording (HD-DVD-R/HD-DVD-Rewritable): Single-layer (20GB) - Dual-Sided Disc (40GB) - Dual Layer (35GB - proposed). Data Transfer Rate: 36 MBPS (Megabits per Second) - This exceeds the 24 MBPS transfer rate used by HDTV broadcasts. Disc Properties: Format similar to existing DVD disc structure, requiring minimal upgrading and retooling of existing DVD disc manufacturing and replication plants. Video Specifications: Compatible with MPEG2 and MPEG4 Encoding. Audio Specifications: Incorporation of both Dolby Digital Plus and DTS-HD. Anyway, I don't really have a preference, other than we end up with just one format to use. And it seemed time to post a sticky (with mod help) so that we can watch this unfold. |
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Why is it superior? Because of the higher capacity?
To be honest, I am unimpressed with either. Why? It is still an unprotected optical disc. It would be nice to see something that is similar in structure to a floppy/mini-disc where it is protected from abuse ALL the time. |
Neither will be 1080p from the start will they (either software or hardware)?
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Originally Posted by jasonr114
Why is it superior? Because of the higher capacity?
To be honest, I am unimpressed with either. Why? It is still an unprotected optical disc. It would be nice to see something that is similar in structure to a floppy/mini-disc where it is protected from abuse ALL the time. |
Now theres a 3rd contender, with 1 terabyte of storage capacity. -eek-
http://forevergeek.com/news/toshiba_...technology.php http://www.digitmag.co.uk/news/index.cfm?NewsID=4982 |
Wow, that is pretty cool. If Sony truly believes that size is the most important thing, they will step aside. I won't wait for that.
Too bad HVD will probably get to the party too late to do anything in terms of the entertainment market. Personally, it seems like the "next gen" is being pushed too fast so that they can get it out by Christmas this year, while I don't think there will be enough demand for awhile. Especially with two formats...it will stagnate for quite some time. I look forward to HD discs, but I'm not dissatisfied with dvds, and I won't buy something in a format war just for the hell of it. |
I thought I read somewhere that the surface would be considerably thinner than HD-DVD. If so, that would be a negative in my book.
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Originally Posted by cajun_junky
I thought I read somewhere that the surface would be considerably thinner than HD-DVD. If so, that would be a negative in my book.
It is a lot thinner, and that is both a plus and a weekness. Because it is thinner, the laser can focus much tighter, and thus get more stuff on the disc, but it also makes it more likely to get screwed up with a scratch. |
Thats one of the reasons many of the content providers (Movie studios, etc) are backing HD-DVD. Not only are they cheaper to produce, but current DVD production facilities can be modified to produce HD-DVDs. While Blue Ray will require entirely new production facilities altogether.
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My vote goes for the opposite of whatever Sony supports. HD-DVD it is!
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Originally Posted by kvrdave
It is a lot thinner, and that is both a plus and a weekness. Because it is thinner, the laser can focus much tighter, and thus get more stuff on the disc, but it also makes it more likely to get screwed up with a scratch.
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Originally Posted by joshd2012
You forget that Blu-Ray will have a layer of protection applied to it that HD-DVD won't. TDK designed the product, and it is resistant to scratches from very rough surfaces - even steel wool. So HD-DVD would actually be much easier to scratch then Blu-Ray
But also, I have never really had an issue with scratches anyway. I expect that we will have a format war in a rush to get out this Christmas, and if the Blu-Ray does scratch and skip, everyone will know it relatively quickly and the war would be over. So that may be a moot point. I honestly see no way in which we won't have a format war now. But that saves me money until a winner is chosen. :) |
http://images.computers4sure.com/com...ET/I215516.jpg
Sony's PDD Blue Laser Disks use cartridges to protect them. Its possible that they will also use cartridges for Blue Ray DVDs. |
i hope both of these formats bomb
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Originally Posted by Thrush
http://images.computers4sure.com/com...ET/I215516.jpg
Sony's PDD Blue Laser Disks use cartridges to protect them. Its possible that they will also use cartridges for Blue Ray DVDs. I have thought of that as well, but wonder what that would do for costs. Certainly it wouldn't go down. But just from the rumors, I could see how Sony might need this type of thing if there is any truth to the idea that they are more likely to be screwed up by minor scratches. JZ1276 - 'splain why. |
because kvrdave, even though ill deny it now, I know I will end up repurchasing everything I currently own on DVD on BR/HD DVD...and it is going to be a pain in the ass
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rotfl
I have worried and wondered about that as well. Even to the point of wondering if I should sell my stuff now while I can get something out of them. I honestly don't know what the answer is there. Nor do I know how long it will take them to take things like ST:TNG and put the money into them to make them HDTV and significantly better than what I have now. The one thing I really wonder about is if the HD-DVD (or Blu-Ray) is going to be significantly better in the eyes of Joe Consumer. I have no complaints about the quality of my dvds. The picture is great, and I watch on a 100" screen. For most poeple watching on significantly smaller screens, the difference will be even less. I don't know that there will be the same demand going from DVD to HD discs as there was from VHS to DVD. It may end up being about like CD to SACD. Most poeple just haven't seen it justified. |
Originally Posted by kvrdave
rotfl
The one thing I really wonder about is if the HD-DVD (or Blu-Ray) is going to be significantly better in the eyes of Joe Consumer. I have no complaints about the quality of my dvds. The picture is great, and I watch on a 100" screen. For most poeple watching on significantly smaller screens, the difference will be even less. I don't know that there will be the same demand going from DVD to HD discs as there was from VHS to DVD. It may end up being about like CD to SACD. Most poeple just haven't seen it justified. |
The problem with blue-ray and HD-DVD is that right now only a select group of people have HDTV capabilities. Joe Sixpack that doesn't, won't care about a DVD that looks better than a normal DVD when he doesn't even have a set that will display it. Once HDTV permeates the market places as the common sale, not the higher end sale, we'll see steam pick up on whatever format comes around.
As for the repurchasing of regular DVDs, I don't think that'll be a big deal. It's been talk that most of the HD-DVD players will upconvert the existing DVDs to 1080i, so they should look almost as good. |
It does make me think that this rush to get out by Christmas is a very bad idea. Obviously they are doing it to get a medium accepted so they can profit from its sales for years to come, and because DVD sales havereached market saturation.
Just like most people don't buy $1,000 speakers even though the sound is much better, I don't think they will all dive into a new format that is just a little better. This won't be a huge leap in quality of product to most people. |
Re: Buying DVDs all over again:
I don't think this will be as much of a problem as some think. A lot of catalog titles arent going to look any (or at least much) better than their current release. I don't see the studios rushing to remaster catalog titles in HD that they barely mastered in the first place for DVD. Until the format takes off, I think we'll mostly see new releases and some 'premium' title releases like how there are Superbit versions, and of course the titles that are already available on D-VHS. As for who's going to win the format war, you can look at specs all day and make a guess, but in the end I think it's going to be whoever implements it in a way that has the least impact on the consumer. I'm talking about things like: lowest cost, players being backwards compatible to regular DVDs, etc. Sort of like how a few years ago you had to go out and actually look for a progressive scan player. Now, most players are PS and it's hard to find one that's not. |
I agree with renaldow. Also, ST:TNG and other SDTV should never be released on any HD disc. There's no point. Certainly don't bother doubledipping on them.
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Originally Posted by Spiky
I agree with renaldow. Also, ST:TNG and other SDTV should never be released on any HD disc. There's no point. Certainly don't bother doubledipping on them.
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Originally Posted by renaldow
A lot of catalog titles arent going to look any (or at least much) better than their current release.
I do agree that repurchasing isn't going to be a big deal, at least not for a while. |
Originally Posted by Adam Tyner
If you watch older movies on channels like HDNet Movies, the difference really can be remarkable. I was watching a few minutes of Mad Max and thought "hmmm...this isn't really any better than the DVD". I decided to do an A/B comparison and quickly realized how wrong I was. Also, bear in mind that it's been standard practice to master everything in HD for a good long while. Even smaller shops like Synapse have been doing this.
I do agree that repurchasing isn't going to be a big deal, at least not for a while. |
Originally Posted by kvrdave
Unless you see a side-by-side you don't know you are missing something.
Really, though, I couldn't care less if Joe Whoever can appreciate the difference or not. My eyes are the only ones that matter to me, and even though I'm sure DVD is good enough for a great many people, I'm not among them. I don't expect either format to be widely adopted for a pretty good while, I know I'm going to pay a premium to get movies in the best possible quality because of its limited market, and that's okay. My family got our first Laserdisc player in 1984, so this isn't exactly unfamiliar territory. :) |
Originally Posted by Thrush
http://images.computers4sure.com/com...ET/I215516.jpg
Sony's PDD Blue Laser Disks use cartridges to protect them. Its possible that they will also use cartridges for Blue Ray DVDs. Even after 300 passes by a steel wool pad, a Blu-ray Disc (BD-RE135N) with DURABIS hard coating shows virtually no increase in jitter, attesting to its superior ability to resist scratching. http://www.durabis.com/en/index.htm |
Originally Posted by Adam Tyner
Well, it depends on the movie, too. Mad Max didn't seem that dramatic until I went back and forth between the two, but I just saw a clip of Police Academy 2, of all things, in high-definition, and I'd have a hard time taking anyone seriously who could confuse that with a DVD. Unless it's a movie with softer, grainier photography (like The Man Who Would Be King or All The President's Men), the difference is generally striking. I'd imagine the vast majority of the people who say that older movies won't benefit (or wouldn't benefit much) from a high-definition format haven't actually watched much of anything in HD.
:) The only way it depends on the movie is what condition the actual stored films are in. If they are beat to hell, remastering can't do much. |
Originally Posted by Spiky
It doesn't depend on the movie, per say.
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Originally Posted by joshd2012
It really is a remarkable thing. The coating is not only scratch resistant, but also smudge and dust resistant. Joe six pack treats their optical media like crap, so anything that prevents them from having to change their habits is a welcome feature. Like I will continue to say, Blu-Ray was designed with consumers in mind, while HD-DVD was made with movie studios in mind.
http://www.durabis.com/en/index.htm |
I think the name is going to be a huge factor.
Just picture this... a dad or wife walking into a store, thinking "I want to buy my (husband, son, daughter, etc.) a High Def movie, I know they make High Definition movies". The dad or wife asks the BB sales rep "Sir, do you sell High Defenition movies? I don't really know what they are, but my son/husband calls them high def". BB rep "Yes, we sell HD-DVD, or Blu-Ray" Dad/Wife immediatley equates HD to High Def. "I'll take the HD-DVD". Your average consumer won't care which has higher capacity...but I'm guessing they'll buy whatever is named closer to the product. |
Found this DVD-R with Durabis at CNet:
http://news.com.com/i/ne/p/2004/111504dvdscratch.jpg Yes, it was still playable. Edit: They have been selling these for a while. I've searched the CD Freak board, and it looks like everyone is happy with them. Couldn't find any reviews on the scratch resistant feature though. |
Originally Posted by juicerocket
I think the name is going to be a huge factor.
As for the scratch protection thing, there are murmurs that as effective as Durabis is, it's too expensive/too cumbersome to be used on a wide scale, and Blu-Ray might lean in a different direction despite what's been said. (Word is they're looking at a protective film over a hard coat.) As for whether or not that's true, I have no idea. |
Originally Posted by Adam Tyner
I'd imagine the vast majority of the people who say that older movies won't benefit (or wouldn't benefit much) from a high-definition format haven't actually watched much of anything in HD.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for this and will buy into whichever format wins. I don't think I'll be repurchasing many of my titles, though. |
Originally Posted by renaldow
Maybe I'm being a pessimist, but I don't see them doing more than a simple upscaling to the same master they used for DVD, not unlike the same way an upscaling player does.
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Originally Posted by renaldow
I have seen a lot of HD content, but my comment had more to do with the way studios treat older catalog titles than the technology itself. Maybe I'm being a pessimist, but I don't see them doing more than a simple upscaling to the same master they used for DVD, not unlike the same way an upscaling player does. Sure, it gives you the lines of resolution, but it's still not really HD, even if there's a noticeable difference.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for this and will buy into whichever format wins. I don't think I'll be repurchasing many of my titles, though. The point you are making is one of the many reasons that I'll be taking this eventual upgrade/transition VERY slowly. I'm going to be pretty pissed after reading a rave review of a title to find that (after purchase) it basically looks identical to my upscaled standard-def DVD. It's going to take a while to find sites/reviewers that I trust. ;) |
Originally Posted by Adam Tyner
Right, but there are a ton of high-definition masters already out there. The studios aren't starting from scratch. If they're willing to go to the time, effort, and expense to make such nice looking transfers of movies as obscure as <i>Hero at Large</i> and <i>Night of the Comet</i> (and they have), I think we're probably okay where everything else is concerned.
Night of the Comet? That's not even out on DVD, is there a HD version showing on cable or sattelite? |
Originally Posted by renaldow
Night of the Comet? That's not even out on DVD, is there a HD version showing on cable or sattelite?
Originally Posted by renaldow
Sure, there will be good ones out there, maybe I made it sound like none would be, if so, I didn't mean to. I think it will really be on a studio by studio basis. Some will go out of their way to put out a good product, others just won't. Kind of like it is now with some studios and DVD.
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There's something that hasn't been mentioned about TV on DVD in this thread. Even if the video quality on an HD format disc is the same as DVD, they'll be able to cut down on the number discs required because of the greater capacity. It's obviously not worth rebuying a season or series for 99% of the population, but it'd be a nice convenience to those who haven't bought the DVD version.
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