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Originally Posted by sdcrym
There's something that hasn't been mentioned about TV on DVD in this thread. Even if the video quality on an HD format disc is the same as DVD, they'll be able to cut down on the number discs required because of the greater capacity. It's obviously not worth rebuying a season or series for 99% of the population, but it'd be a nice convenience to those who haven't bought the DVD version.
I actually don't think so. The price will be the same (as the cost to print the media is cheap anyway) and people will still pay an extra $10 or so because there is some "special 2 disc set" which will make the companies continue to make them, even if they don't need to. I don't see people (on average) paying for a special edition that has the same number of discs as the regular edition. |
Originally Posted by juicerocket
I think the name is going to be a huge factor.
Your average consumer won't care which has higher capacity...but I'm guessing they'll buy whatever is named closer to the product. |
I think there are three level's of HT peoples...
Level 1 is your "VHS" guy. He is just recently bought a DVD player(or within the last few years) when they have gone down under $100 a unit. He buys only a select few movies and rents alot from local rental store. Pice isn't a concern because he either spends his money on other things or he dosen't have much to spend. Level 2 is your "light" HT hobbyist. He purchased a DVD player when they came down to $300 or so. His reciever is in the $400 range and his TV is probably 1080i capable. He probably has around 200-300 DVD's. Price is a concern but only to a certain point. Level 3 is the "whammy". Price is not a issue with him and he grabs the latest tech that hits the streets. Own's upwards to 1000 DVD's. He burns cash to heat his house. Level 1 guy won't be interested in the next-gen DVD players. They offer nothing for his system(regular tube television) and he wont be willing to purchase the new players when they hit anyway. Level 2 guy is probably a HD-DVD guy. The increase in DVD prices and fairly new players will be within his budget in a short time. Backwards compatability will be a high priority for this level. Level 3 guy probably will be the Blue-Ray guy. Price isnt a issue and if it holds more capacity then all the better. Me? Im level 2. Price is important to me. I don't want to have to pay more than $25 for a DVD and I would like to pay less if Im simply getting the movie with not alot of fluff. Backwards compatability is HUGE. I must have this in the next format. I have 200 DVDs and no more shelves in my cabnet for another player. It would be several years after the the new formats launch that I pick one up if its not backwards compatable. Not to mention I have had some pretty bad dealings with Sony in the past. Im hoping everyone gets the HD-DVD format mindset. |
Hmm. More like 20 levels. But your points are valid. Many won't even notice HD discs. It will be very interesting to compare the high-rez audio dual-headed mess with the video mess yet to come.
They will all be backwards compatible. They know as well as any of us that to NOT have these machines play DVDs would be the bonehead move of the decade in electronics, beating out Cablevision's Voom fiasco. |
Here's a pretty good article on the coming war...
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...yndication=rss |
There was also an article on slashdot yesterday. I find the "PS3 install base" logic quite compelling. In addition, there was a thread on AVSforum that contained photos of all HD-DVD and Blue loaders from the CES. IIRC, there were about 10 Blue loaders and only 2-3 HD-DVD loaders. That would not seem to bode well for HD-DVD ...
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Fox is officially in the Blu-Ray camp, by the way.
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Originally Posted by gcbrowni
There was also an article on slashdot yesterday. I find the "PS3 install base" logic quite compelling. In addition, there was a thread on AVSforum that contained photos of all HD-DVD and Blue loaders from the CES. IIRC, there were about 10 Blue loaders and only 2-3 HD-DVD loaders. That would not seem to bode well for HD-DVD ...
I don't find the PS3 logic all that compelling. PS3 users have to have a HDCP enabled HDTV to take advantage of BD. Thus you can rule out analog only HDTV and Analog SD TV. The studios support is pretty much even. Early adopters are going to need to have both units. It's likely that there will be a Xbox360 unit that supports HD-DVD as well. What I'm hoping for is a Universal player. Hopefully samsung jumps on this once the pricing comes down on the parts. |
It does not rule out SDTV or older HDTVs. It just means you cannot watch in HD res. Which is obvious for the SDTVs, very annoying for those with component-only HDTVs.
It truly is amazing that all this is just over the resolution. 480i downconversion is always available, copy that all you want. |
The bad thing is that the HD-DVD players won't even send out full bandwidth video through the component outputs; it'll be downgraded to 480p. So there are a lot of people with HDTVs who won't even be able to take advantage of the new format since their displays don't have DVI or HDMI.
I think there are two mistakes being made right from the start: two different formats with studios backing different ones, and no full bandwidth video over component. I don't see how this is going to succeed, but I'd like to be wrong in this case. But they'll need to sell a lot of players (at least a reasonable amount) before more obscure titles are released on the format, and that's something I don't see happening for a long time. So I really don't worry too much about buying current DVDs, especially catalog titles, because I think it will be years, if ever, before they're released on HD-DVD/Bluray. Again, I hope I'm wrong. I also think older films can look great in HD. MonstersHD shows a lot of old, black and white low budget films, and some of them look amazing in HD. And there are some that look no better (and sometimes inferior) to the DVD, but that is more the exception than the rule. |
Let me see if I get this correctly. Is it any blu-ray player than downconverts to 480i automatically through component cables, or is that just the way the PS3 will be working, or did I miss the point entirely. Either way, that seems like a bad move. If it is just the PS3, it still certainly won't help bring throngs of people to the Blu-Ray camp if most people still use component, and I am guessing that the vast majority will for another few years.
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Originally Posted by kvrdave
Is it any blu-ray player than downconverts to 480i automatically through component cables, or is that just the way the PS3 will be working, or did I miss the point entirely.
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You can forget HD analog output from Blu-Ray. They just haven't announced it but considering Sony has gone above and beyond just the AACS copy protection and added SPDC on top of that I think it would be rather foolish to think they would allow HD thru component.
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http://www.i4u.com/article3983.html
A story (Subscription) in the Japanese Nihon Keizai Shimbun Saturday morning news paper talks about TDK's Blu-ray disc plans. Apparently TDK is already producing 20,000 Blu-ray discs per month today. By the end of 2006 the monthly Blu-ray disc output should reach 500,000 discs. Is TDK just producing Blu-ray discs for the Sony PS3? The whole mess over the next generation DVD format is not settled yet (HD DVD versus Blu-ray), but it looks like TDK is already moving full steam ahead supporting Sony's Blu-ray. If they do it for the Sony PS3 it makes sense. If they do it for HD movies it would be risky. Who knows what format will prevail. I just hope we end up with one and not with two. |
The hardware/technology is done, I think. Has been for months. It's the copy protection, competition from HD-DVD, and other legal issues that are holding things up.
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HOLLYWOOD, Calif.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Aug. 9, 2005--In a move to protect against illegal copying and large scale piracy while leaving consumers the flexibility to manage and enjoy copies of their legally purchased content, the Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA) has adopted the most comprehensive content management system ever employed on an optical disc format. The Blu-ray content management system includes three primary components: Advanced Access Content System (AACS), "BD+", a Blu-ray-specific enhancement for content protection renewability, and ROM Mark, a measure unique to Blu-ray Disc to guard against mass production piracy or the mass duplication and sale of unauthorized copies of pre-recorded media. "Content protection is a critical issue for next-generation media distribution," said IDC's Joshua Martin, Associate Research Analyst, Consumer Markets. "Finalizing the content protection scheme is critical for the launch of blue laser optical disc technology, and new protection schemes should allow for increased consumer flexibility while better protecting prerecorded content compared to current DVD technology." The foundation of the Blu-ray content management system, AACS(1), is a state of the art content management system that is many times more powerful than that used in DVD. Additionally, AACS enables new consumer usage models around network functionality and internet connectivity including managing copies, in an authorized and secure manner. In addition to AACS, the BDA took a dramatic step in the battle against mass production piracy with the adoption of ROM Mark. ROM Mark, which is unique to Blu-ray Disc, is a new technology designed specifically to thwart large scale, mass production piracy, a problem that experts estimate costs the movie industry alone in excess of $3 billion per year in lost revenue. To combat this, the ROM Mark technology embeds a unique and undetectable identifier in pre-recorded BD-ROM media such as movies, music and games. While invisible to consumers, this ROM Mark can only be mastered with equipment available to licensed BD-ROM manufacturers, essentially preventing unauthorized copies of a disc. The BDA also adopted "BD+", a Blu-ray Disc specific programmable renewability enhancement that gives content providers an additional means to respond to organized attacks on the security system by allowing dynamic updates of compromised code. With these enhancements, content providers have a number of methods to choose from to combat hacks on Blu-ray players. Moreover, BD+ affects only players that have been attacked, as opposed to those that are vulnerable but haven't been attacked and therefore continue to operate properly. "The level of unauthorized copying and industrial piracy associated with DVD not only jeopardizes studios and other content creators, but also results in increased costs and limited flexibility for consumers," said Maureen Weber, General Manager, of Hewlett Packard's Optical Storage Solutions. "It is good news for everyone that the BDA has adopted a series of measures that gets it right for the next disc format." |
I give it 2 months before someone hacks these "improved" measures of encryption and security.
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I think it'll take longer than 2 months, mostly just because the hackers aren't going to want to drop a grand to buy a player at launch. :)
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Originally Posted by Adam Tyner
I think it'll take longer than 2 months, mostly just because the hackers aren't going to want to drop a grand to buy a player at launch. :)
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Originally Posted by Adam Tyner
I think it'll take longer than 2 months, mostly just because the hackers aren't going to want to drop a grand to buy a player at launch. :)
Only the early adopters will put up with limited titles and buggy first generation players after they have dropped their 1000 dollars. Then they will get on the internet to complain about it ;) |
Good article. Thanks for posting it. I don't actually believe it will do much to stem bootlegs, but it is probably the type of stuff that the movie studios want to hear, so that may lend more support towards BR. I think they like the cost saving idea of using the same equipment that makes DVDs to also make HD-DVDs, but if they can be shown, or lead to believe, that the added cost to set up production of Blue-Ray will be saved quickly by additional sales from the lack of bootlegs (if one buys into that theory) then it is a huge deal for Sony.
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According to the Wall Street Journal, you probably won't be seeing much in the way of HD-DVD this year.
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Originally Posted by Brian Shannon
And neither will the overwhelming majority of consumers.
Only the early adopters will put up with limited titles and buggy first generation players after they have dropped their 1000 dollars. Then they will get on the internet to complain about it ;) |
Originally Posted by Spiky
We'll be waiting for your comments, Brian. :cool:
I respect the discussion but I still believe that we are 1-2 years from having anything substantive to talk about. Nearly everything so far is marketing hype, brand positioning and posturing. When I can buy HD shot and mastered DVD's and play them on a player that is nearly free from defects, I will take notice. Until then, I am just sitting in my theater enjoying what I have! |
Originally Posted by Brian Shannon
And neither will the overwhelming majority of consumers.
Only the early adopters will put up with limited titles and buggy first generation players after they have dropped their 1000 dollars. Then they will get on the internet to complain about it ;) I think the people who pay 1000 for a new Hd-dvd player will be the same ones that are putting up 500-3000 for current mid to high end dvd players. what interests me is how the hardware is brought into the lower priced market. The plan is probably to just phase out cheap dvd players with equally priced hd players, though that will take a few years. |
Yep, that would be all of them. (current players with bugs)
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Lions Gate has pledged Blu-Ray support - again because of the recent DRM announcement.
http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/76228/dr...y-recruit.html |
Heh. Toshiba has recently jumped onto the next generation of holographic storage media. Could they be ready to concede this round?
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Originally Posted by Pistol Pete
Heh. Toshiba has recently jumped onto the next generation of holographic storage media. Could they be ready to concede this round?
http://www.cdfreaks.com/news2.php?ID=8067 |
That's what I'm waiting for. 3.5 TB for 18 minutes of video. :eek:
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Originally Posted by kvrdave
I actually don't think so. The price will be the same (as the cost to print the media is cheap anyway) and people will still pay an extra $10 or so because there is some "special 2 disc set" which will make the companies continue to make them, even if they don't need to. I don't see people (on average) paying for a special edition that has the same number of discs as the regular edition.
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Does anyone have a link to a summary of which studios have come out in favor of each of the formats?
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Off the top of my head:
Blue Ray Supporters: Fox Lion's Gate Sony Hardware-wise: Sony, Dell, Hewlett-Packard, Hitachi, LG Electronics, Matsushita Electric Industrial (Panasonic), Mitsubishi Electric, Philips Electronics, Pioneer Electronics, Samsung Electronics, Sharp, TDK, and Thomson Multimedia. HD-DVD supporters Time Warner (Warner Bros and New Line) Paramount Universal Microsoft Hardware-wise: Toshiba, NEC, Sanyo, and Memory-Tech No idea about Disney, Dreamworks. |
Didn't realise Microsoft was in the HD-DVD camp. If thats the case they could have given the format a much needed shot in the arm by including an HD-DVD drive in the XBOX360 just as Sony is doing with the Blue Laser and the PS3.
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Well, I yanked that one off some site I was looking at a while back. It also said there might be blue-ray support too with MS, so I'm not really sure what to believe.
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Well Bill Gates came the other day to Japan to do some business and he had a meeting with Toshiba President and agreed that he will support HD-DVD.Not sure about Blue-Ray.And Maybe X-Box 360 Next Gen will have a HD-DVD player capabilities
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Originally Posted by Brian Shannon
Not me.
I respect the discussion but I still believe that we are 1-2 years from having anything substantive to talk about. Nearly everything so far is marketing hype, brand positioning and posturing. When I can buy HD shot and mastered DVD's and play them on a player that is nearly free from defects, I will take notice. Until then, I am just sitting in my theater enjoying what I have! I'm sitting this one out until I can buy a player in the $250 range and pick up disc titles at prices comparable to what we pay today. Like Brian, I'm sitting in my home theater enjoying what I have until then. I have no faith in the industry making the most of the technology for years to come anyway. Oh, there will be some incredible releases in the coming days, if for no other reason than to capture the consumer's desire to make the switch....but I bet many titles won't look much better than their DVD counterparts. We see striking instances of this today, constant upgrades of this and that title for better PQ, proper aspect ratio. To be honest I don't think DVD has reached it's full potential and if there were no advent of HD, standard DVD could improve in the years to come. Take titles like Concert For George, Blade II, The Incredibles, Lowry digital releases and pop them into a player in a home theater setup......just how much better does a release need to be than that? Those titles didn't need an HD release to look and sound terrific at a low price, nor do many others when given the proper care. HD will have incredible potential, but I'm betting we'll see rereleases of many of the first titles down the road improving on their original HD releases. |
Thing is, though, it's not like our present DVDs will be obsolete. Most players will have the ability to upconvert for HDTV. Really, the only difference is the space on discs, which could be used for more extras. I don't think the consumer is getting screwed here.
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Originally Posted by Thrush
Didn't realise Microsoft was in the HD-DVD camp. If thats the case they could have given the format a much needed shot in the arm by including an HD-DVD drive in the XBOX360 just as Sony is doing with the Blue Laser and the PS3.
So, I am going to buy the PS3, this way I can play games for both boxes and I will have blue ray HD - good deal. |
Originally Posted by Deftones
Thing is, though, it's not like our present DVDs will be obsolete. Most players will have the ability to upconvert for HDTV. Really, the only difference is the space on discs, which could be used for more extras. I don't think the consumer is getting screwed here.
I'm happy with what I have and I forsee that I will still be happy five years from now. |
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