What do people mean by timbre mathing?
04-26-01, 11:18 PM
#2
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I think they mean "timbre matching." 
Actually, the idea is that all of the speakers in a home theater system -- especially those in the front -- should have the same timbre (tonality, general sound quality).
This way, when something goes across your screen, it doesn't start out as, say, a garbage truck on your left front channel, turn into a toy truck (obviously an exaggeration) when it goes "through" your center channel, and then be transformed again when it gets to your right channel.
Same goes for:
* dialog
* all other effects
* front to back panning, but it's probably a bit less important
Actually, the idea is that all of the speakers in a home theater system -- especially those in the front -- should have the same timbre (tonality, general sound quality).
This way, when something goes across your screen, it doesn't start out as, say, a garbage truck on your left front channel, turn into a toy truck (obviously an exaggeration) when it goes "through" your center channel, and then be transformed again when it gets to your right channel.
Same goes for:
* dialog
* all other effects
* front to back panning, but it's probably a bit less important
04-27-01, 07:38 PM
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so what exactly do you mean by tonality and general sound quality in terms of technical specifications of speakers?
Originally posted by stevevt
I think they mean "timbre matching."
Actually, the idea is that all of the speakers in a home theater system -- especially those in the front -- should have the same timbre (tonality, general sound quality).
This way, when something goes across your screen, it doesn't start out as, say, a garbage truck on your left front channel, turn into a toy truck (obviously an exaggeration) when it goes "through" your center channel, and then be transformed again when it gets to your right channel.
Same goes for:
* dialog
* all other effects
* front to back panning, but it's probably a bit less important
I think they mean "timbre matching."
Actually, the idea is that all of the speakers in a home theater system -- especially those in the front -- should have the same timbre (tonality, general sound quality).
This way, when something goes across your screen, it doesn't start out as, say, a garbage truck on your left front channel, turn into a toy truck (obviously an exaggeration) when it goes "through" your center channel, and then be transformed again when it gets to your right channel.
Same goes for:
* dialog
* all other effects
* front to back panning, but it's probably a bit less important
04-27-01, 11:32 PM
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one of the key things to match is the speaker's sensitivity. If your center channel is 92 dB w/ 1 W @ 1m, and your mains are 88 dB...your center channel will likely be too far forward in the soundstage (and likely too bright) without some further equalization. The easiest way to match things is to make sure that the mid range and tweeter drivers of your mains and center channel speakers are all the same. This (obviously) means that speakers from the same line of the same company are preferable (but not absolutely necessary)
04-28-01, 11:02 AM
#5
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Originally posted by edclem
one of the key things to match is the speaker's sensitivity. If your center channel is 92 dB w/ 1 W @ 1m, and your mains are 88 dB...your center channel will likely be too far forward in the soundstage (and likely too bright) without some further equalization. The easiest way to match things is to make sure that the mid range and tweeter drivers of your mains and center channel speakers are all the same. This (obviously) means that speakers from the same line of the same company are preferable (but not absolutely necessary)
one of the key things to match is the speaker's sensitivity. If your center channel is 92 dB w/ 1 W @ 1m, and your mains are 88 dB...your center channel will likely be too far forward in the soundstage (and likely too bright) without some further equalization. The easiest way to match things is to make sure that the mid range and tweeter drivers of your mains and center channel speakers are all the same. This (obviously) means that speakers from the same line of the same company are preferable (but not absolutely necessary)
How loud the speaker will be at a certain distance given a certain amount of power.
It is not an indicator of treble brightness, imaging ability, forwardness, harshness, overall sound quality, or anything else.
It is possible to find a center speaker with a 4db difference in sensitivity that matches a pair of mains very well. And you will be able to adjust the level reaching the center channel (or mains, or both) to compensate for this difference in speaker output level.
That being said, I completely agree with this:
The easiest way to match things is to make sure that the mid range and tweeter drivers of your mains and center channel speakers are all the same. This (obviously) means that speakers from the same line of the same company are preferable (but not absolutely necessary).
04-28-01, 11:59 AM
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Thanks guys. The reason I was asking about this was that I just bought some Infinity RS-3 speakers as mains (I will most probably get 2 more for rears) but I was having trouble spotting a center channel. I realize the center channel is important but I don't want to spend too much on them. I also want it to match the RS-3s. Any suggestions? I was thinking of the JBL n-center or s-center. The Infinity CC-3 is very hard to find and is quite pricy as well.
Originally posted by stevevt
Sensitivity tells you one thing, and one thing only:
How loud the speaker will be at a certain distance given a certain amount of power.
It is not an indicator of treble brightness, imaging ability, forwardness, harshness, overall sound quality, or anything else.
It is possible to find a center speaker with a 4db difference in sensitivity that matches a pair of mains very well. And you will be able to adjust the level reaching the center channel (or mains, or both) to compensate for this difference in speaker output level.
That being said, I completely agree with this:
Originally posted by edclem
one of the key things to match is the speaker's sensitivity. If your center channel is 92 dB w/ 1 W @ 1m, and your mains are 88 dB...your center channel will likely be too far forward in the soundstage (and likely too bright) without some further equalization. The easiest way to match things is to make sure that the mid range and tweeter drivers of your mains and center channel speakers are all the same. This (obviously) means that speakers from the same line of the same company are preferable (but not absolutely necessary)
one of the key things to match is the speaker's sensitivity. If your center channel is 92 dB w/ 1 W @ 1m, and your mains are 88 dB...your center channel will likely be too far forward in the soundstage (and likely too bright) without some further equalization. The easiest way to match things is to make sure that the mid range and tweeter drivers of your mains and center channel speakers are all the same. This (obviously) means that speakers from the same line of the same company are preferable (but not absolutely necessary)
How loud the speaker will be at a certain distance given a certain amount of power.
It is not an indicator of treble brightness, imaging ability, forwardness, harshness, overall sound quality, or anything else.
It is possible to find a center speaker with a 4db difference in sensitivity that matches a pair of mains very well. And you will be able to adjust the level reaching the center channel (or mains, or both) to compensate for this difference in speaker output level.
That being said, I completely agree with this:
The easiest way to match things is to make sure that the mid range and tweeter drivers of your mains and center channel speakers are all the same. This (obviously) means that speakers from the same line of the same company are preferable (but not absolutely necessary).
04-28-01, 12:12 PM
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Originally posted by mgn2
Thanks guys. The reason I was asking about this was that I just bought some Infinity RS-3 speakers as mains (I will most probably get 2 more for rears) but I was having trouble spotting a center channel. I realize the center channel is important but I don't want to spend too much on them. I also want it to match the RS-3s. Any suggestions? I was thinking of the JBL n-center or s-center. The Infinity CC-3 is very hard to find and is quite pricy as well.
Thanks guys. The reason I was asking about this was that I just bought some Infinity RS-3 speakers as mains (I will most probably get 2 more for rears) but I was having trouble spotting a center channel. I realize the center channel is important but I don't want to spend too much on them. I also want it to match the RS-3s. Any suggestions? I was thinking of the JBL n-center or s-center. The Infinity CC-3 is very hard to find and is quite pricy as well.
Otherwise, I have 2 suggestions:
1) bite the bullet and buy a CC-3
2) go to http://www.audioreview.com (and elsewhere, like newsgroups) and search for reviews that contain the words "Infinity" and "rs-3" and see if anyone lists what center channel they are using with these speakers
No matter what happens, it is my opinion that you'll probably be better off with no center channel at all than one that doesn't match your system. Of course, if you do a lot of off-axis listening, you'll probably need to have a center channel no matter what.
Good luck.
04-28-01, 12:24 PM
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Stevevt, thanks. I doubt I will have the chance to go audition anything. I am just going to buy something from recommendations. What exactly do you mean by off-axis listening?
Originally posted by stevevt
Ideally, you'll want to audition center speakers in your system, and determine which works best for you, in your room, with your equipment, etc.
Otherwise, I have 2 suggestions:
1) bite the bullet and buy a CC-3
2) go to http://www.audioreview.com (and elsewhere, like newsgroups) and search for reviews that contain the words "Infinity" and "rs-3" and see if anyone lists what center channel they are using with these speakers
No matter what happens, it is my opinion that you'll probably be better off with no center channel at all than one that doesn't match your system. Of course, if you do a lot of off-axis listening, you'll probably need to have a center channel no matter what.
Good luck.
Originally posted by mgn2
Thanks guys. The reason I was asking about this was that I just bought some Infinity RS-3 speakers as mains (I will most probably get 2 more for rears) but I was having trouble spotting a center channel. I realize the center channel is important but I don't want to spend too much on them. I also want it to match the RS-3s. Any suggestions? I was thinking of the JBL n-center or s-center. The Infinity CC-3 is very hard to find and is quite pricy as well.
Thanks guys. The reason I was asking about this was that I just bought some Infinity RS-3 speakers as mains (I will most probably get 2 more for rears) but I was having trouble spotting a center channel. I realize the center channel is important but I don't want to spend too much on them. I also want it to match the RS-3s. Any suggestions? I was thinking of the JBL n-center or s-center. The Infinity CC-3 is very hard to find and is quite pricy as well.
Otherwise, I have 2 suggestions:
1) bite the bullet and buy a CC-3
2) go to http://www.audioreview.com (and elsewhere, like newsgroups) and search for reviews that contain the words "Infinity" and "rs-3" and see if anyone lists what center channel they are using with these speakers
No matter what happens, it is my opinion that you'll probably be better off with no center channel at all than one that doesn't match your system. Of course, if you do a lot of off-axis listening, you'll probably need to have a center channel no matter what.
Good luck.
04-28-01, 12:56 PM
#9
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Originally posted by mgn2
Stevevt, thanks. I doubt I will have the chance to go audition anything. I am just going to buy something from recommendations. What exactly do you mean by off-axis listening?
Stevevt, thanks. I doubt I will have the chance to go audition anything. I am just going to buy something from recommendations. What exactly do you mean by off-axis listening?
And the farther off-axis (away from the center) you sit, the worse this will be.
Make sense?
04-28-01, 03:14 PM
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FYI: From Dolby Lab's 5.1-Channel Production Guidelines PDF Document;
Key words for the professional mixer also applies to the consumer:
1) . . . all three should be identical
2) . . . same acoustic polarity
and the end result would be to "achieve uniformity" in your entire HT System and surround sounds.
So, if you're keeping your front speaker, I agree with stevevt recommendation to
"1) bite the bullet and buy a CC-3"
Another FYI: The JBL "N" and "S" series are 'timbre' matched within their own respective series. The key is their high frequency driver's, which is, . . .
"N"-Series
High-Frequency Driver: 3/4" Titanium-laminate dome with EOS waveguide
"S"-Series
High-Frequency Driver: 1" Pure titanium dome with EOS waveguide
Phil
3.2.1 Front Speakers
Multichannel sound systems add a center speaker to the Left/Right pair used in stereo systems. To promote good imaging, all three should be identical, just as conventional
L and R stereo speakers must be matched. If all three cannot be the same model, the center speaker may be a smaller model from the same product line.
3.2.2 Surround Speakers
Whenever possible, use the same speakers all around to achieve uniformity. If this is not feasible, the surround speakers may be smaller than the front speakers but should
maintain the same character; i.e. they might be smaller speakers from the same manufacturer.
The Surround speakers must exhibit the same acoustic polarity as the front speakers. It is highly recommended that electronic signal polarity be maintained throughout the
entire monitoring system.
Multichannel sound systems add a center speaker to the Left/Right pair used in stereo systems. To promote good imaging, all three should be identical, just as conventional
L and R stereo speakers must be matched. If all three cannot be the same model, the center speaker may be a smaller model from the same product line.
3.2.2 Surround Speakers
Whenever possible, use the same speakers all around to achieve uniformity. If this is not feasible, the surround speakers may be smaller than the front speakers but should
maintain the same character; i.e. they might be smaller speakers from the same manufacturer.
The Surround speakers must exhibit the same acoustic polarity as the front speakers. It is highly recommended that electronic signal polarity be maintained throughout the
entire monitoring system.
1) . . . all three should be identical
2) . . . same acoustic polarity
and the end result would be to "achieve uniformity" in your entire HT System and surround sounds.
So, if you're keeping your front speaker, I agree with stevevt recommendation to
"1) bite the bullet and buy a CC-3"
Another FYI: The JBL "N" and "S" series are 'timbre' matched within their own respective series. The key is their high frequency driver's, which is, . . .
"N"-Series
High-Frequency Driver: 3/4" Titanium-laminate dome with EOS waveguide
"S"-Series
High-Frequency Driver: 1" Pure titanium dome with EOS waveguide
Phil
04-28-01, 11:04 PM
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Thanks for all your replies. I tried to look around for a CC-3 but I can't find one anywhere. I would consider paying up if I could at least find it. I would like to consider other options at this point. Here are the specs for the Infinity RS-3 speakers:
Frequency response: 40 - 20,000Hz
Sensitivity: 89dB spl @1m/2.83V
Impedance: 8 ohms
Amplifiier Power: 15-150 watts
Drivers: (1) 6 1/2"(160mm) long throw co-injected woofer, (1) 1" (25mm) silk-dome tweeter with elliptical waveguide
Here are some center channels I have been looking at:
Cerwin-Vega LS6C - Dual 6 1/2 Inch Woofers and
thermal overload protection
LS-6C Description: 6 1/2" 2-Way Center Channel
Frequency Response: 50 Hz - 20 kHz
Power Handling: 125 watts
Sensitivity: 92 dB
Impedance: 8 ohm compatible
Crossover Frequencies: 3.5 kHz
JBL N-Center
Sensitivity dB @ 1m/2.83V: 90
Impedance (ohms): 8
Bass Driver: 5" PolyPlas™
High Frequency Driver: 3/4" Titanium-laminate dome
Power Rating: 150W
Frequency Response: 75Hz -- 20kHz
Crossover Frequency(ies): 3500Hz
JBL S-Center
Maximum Recommended Amplifier Power 150 Watts
Impedance 8 Ohms
Sensitivity (2.83V @ 1m) 91dB
Frequency Response (–3dB) 75Hz - 20kHz
Crossover Frequency(ies) 800Hz, 3200Hz
High-Frequency Driver 1" Pure-titanium dome with EOS™ waveguide
Midrange Driver 4" PolyPlas™
Low-Frequency Driver Dual 5-1/4" PolyPlas™
Also, I was wondering if its a bad idea to use another RS-3 as a center speaker? I saw this in some threads before - people using a bookshelf or a tower speaker as a center channel..
Frequency response: 40 - 20,000Hz
Sensitivity: 89dB spl @1m/2.83V
Impedance: 8 ohms
Amplifiier Power: 15-150 watts
Drivers: (1) 6 1/2"(160mm) long throw co-injected woofer, (1) 1" (25mm) silk-dome tweeter with elliptical waveguide
Here are some center channels I have been looking at:
Cerwin-Vega LS6C - Dual 6 1/2 Inch Woofers and
thermal overload protection
LS-6C Description: 6 1/2" 2-Way Center Channel
Frequency Response: 50 Hz - 20 kHz
Power Handling: 125 watts
Sensitivity: 92 dB
Impedance: 8 ohm compatible
Crossover Frequencies: 3.5 kHz
JBL N-Center
Sensitivity dB @ 1m/2.83V: 90
Impedance (ohms): 8
Bass Driver: 5" PolyPlas™
High Frequency Driver: 3/4" Titanium-laminate dome
Power Rating: 150W
Frequency Response: 75Hz -- 20kHz
Crossover Frequency(ies): 3500Hz
JBL S-Center
Maximum Recommended Amplifier Power 150 Watts
Impedance 8 Ohms
Sensitivity (2.83V @ 1m) 91dB
Frequency Response (–3dB) 75Hz - 20kHz
Crossover Frequency(ies) 800Hz, 3200Hz
High-Frequency Driver 1" Pure-titanium dome with EOS™ waveguide
Midrange Driver 4" PolyPlas™
Low-Frequency Driver Dual 5-1/4" PolyPlas™
Also, I was wondering if its a bad idea to use another RS-3 as a center speaker? I saw this in some threads before - people using a bookshelf or a tower speaker as a center channel..
04-28-01, 11:30 PM
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I can only recall matched timbres twice in my life. The first time, while in a music store, a bar band singer was checking out a run-of-the-mill Shure microphone and at least he and I were stunned that he could speak and move the mike closer and move it away and the timbre remained the same regardless of the volume. It was plugged into a guitar amplifier! He was just walking around, plugging it into different amps, setting off blasts of feedback.
I don't remember if it was on Northwestern's campus or off, but a semi-large jazz club had such neutral sound that I could not tell where the pa tapered off and the live sound began. I'm sure I annoyed some of the crowd, walking around them. There were no seats, just a sloping carpeted room with ElectroVoice (sp?) speakers suspended from the ceiling. The amplification was transparent, you could sit anywhere.
I don't remember if it was on Northwestern's campus or off, but a semi-large jazz club had such neutral sound that I could not tell where the pa tapered off and the live sound began. I'm sure I annoyed some of the crowd, walking around them. There were no seats, just a sloping carpeted room with ElectroVoice (sp?) speakers suspended from the ceiling. The amplification was transparent, you could sit anywhere.
04-29-01, 09:08 AM
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I don't know a lot about the technical stuff. But, when I was buying my new speakers, a lot of people told me that the JBL N-series speakers were all timbre matched. I got their NSP1 box set that came with an N-center and 4 N24's .. this was supposedly the best way to go for that timbre matching thing.. and well even though I don't know what that is exactly, I DO know that these speakers really sound great, IMO as good as most of the really expensive ones I've heard, so I'd recomend them to anyone 
