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Should "Gold Traders" mail @ the same time as "Non-Gold Traders"?

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Should "Gold Traders" mail @ the same time as "Non-Gold Traders"?

Old 11-20-02, 08:21 PM
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Should "Gold Traders" mail @ the same time as "Non-Gold Traders"?

Over the last six (6) months a lot of "new" traders have joined the Exchange. I have made a lot of trades with "new" traders only to see them "cancelled" because of the mailing arrangement. Along with this, usually comes some "attitude". Now, should a "new" trader have the right to make demands to "Gold" traders and if the demands aren't met; cancel the trade? It has happened to me so much lately, it has taken a lot of the fun out of trading. The biggest problem I get is from how much "feedback" they have from other sites. (Lets don't forget about A. Murphy, J. Tolliver, J. Wages)

I have only two (2) questions:

#1 Should their "feedback" count on here @ DVDEXchange?
#2 Once a trade is agreed to with a "new" member do they have the right to cancel the trade because of the shipping agreement?

Thanks,

Randy/Stefanie

P.S. Are any other "Gold" traders experiencing this as often as I am?
Old 11-20-02, 08:43 PM
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I have always been selective when dealing with members, be they new, on the GTL, or Gold. I have sent at the same time to many new traders without a hitch. The interesting thing is that while some new users cop attitude when asked to send first, I have to wonder how many Gold Traders started it by saying "Im Gold youre not,so send first...etc" which may be true, but its the attitude of superiority that doesnt help the whole environment.
As a Gold Trader here, I can say that being Gold only demonstrates that you completed at least 10 good trades here....says nothing about the character of the person. I would hope that people trade with me not just because I have GT status, but because I try to offer deals that I perceive as reasonable, and am happy to be corrected or change my offer if I accidentally lowballed a trade offer. Being polite can also go a long way.

I completely understand that once burned, we tend to get more wary of the whole "send first" issue with newer traders on DVDTalk. I think something that we often overlook is that in our haste to make a trade, either because we feel its a good deal, its a rare item, or simply being swept up in the moment, we fail as traders to consider the ramifications of what we do. Maybe if the other trader is offering too good a deal, is too eager, or promises the world, we should stop and say, "is there something here that I should be questioning ?"

I know I have been in this situation a few times, and if it seems fishy to me, I simply back out. Likewise, if a new trader comes across as professional, reasonable, and communicative, I have no issue sending at the same time, trusting my instincts....and to date, have not been burned. In many cases, pleasantly surprised at the deals I could make. Many new traders are honest people, and appreciate the consideration shown them in handing out a little bit of trust in their presumed good faith.
Maybe if more traders considered the deals they made and did not rush hastily to accept deals that appear too good to be true, or where communications have been poor, the outcomes wouldnt be as sour.

This is by no means a slam of any trader here, and certainly not intended as mocking to some of our good community members who have been burned in trades recently. Just a simple suggestion that we have to do what we can to minimize the chances of falling into scams...when in many cases, the warning signs were there.

Randy/Stefanie: My own opinions (debatable/insightful/worthless as they may be) would be that feedback to me isnt something that I use exclusively. If someone has 10,000 good feedbacks on Ebay etc, I still might not deal with them. But it is a valid and objective way to establish a pattern...assuming the people on DVDTalk claiming to be an Ebay etc user really are that person. I dont think a hard and fast rule works here, but a matter of personal comfort and belief in how good those systems are for accurately rating people.

And as far as cancelling a trade based on shipping issues, I do not consider a trade complete until the shipping terms are settled. Yes it can be annoying, but to me, method of delivery is a valid part of the contract, and if something as simple as shipping can't be negotiated, to me its a no brainer that the other person probbaly isnt someone I want to deal with to begin with. In the over 500 trades I have made on DVDTalk (scary, I know), I have never had a trade fall through over shipping. When I have a problem like this, I dont mind the failed trade, note the user so I dont waste time on them again, and move on

Good post by the way....should provide some interesting and hopefully healthy debate.
Old 11-20-02, 08:44 PM
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I have come across this problem a lot recently as well. I try to make it clear up front that if they are not a Gold Trader, they have to send first. Feedback from other sites is something I consider, but if they do not have enough positives, I am fine cancelling the trade rather than going ahead and getting ripped off.
Old 11-20-02, 09:21 PM
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Thespian68 - your very right

theres no easy way to ask a trader to send 1st

i think my problem is that i had to earn my status on the exchange
1 1/2 years ago there was no exception - you had to mail 1st until you became Golden - unless he was new too
Old 11-20-02, 09:22 PM
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I didn't have a problem shipping first when I first joined DVD Talk. I did it until I was a +5 and was a Gold Trader 4 weeks later. Why should it be any different for todays new members?

#1 - Hell no, I don't care if you're a +100 on some other site ( HTF excluded ) you'll still have to ship first unless you're a Gold or Master Trader. I've been ripped off twice so far ( possibly a 3rd at the moment ) and it's not going to happen again if I can help it.

#2 Unfortunately, you can't do much about them cancelling the trade. If they're not willing to ship first then that's just too bad, perhaps you just saved yourself from getting burned.

Jean Paul

Last edited by J.P.V.; 11-20-02 at 09:25 PM.
Old 11-20-02, 09:25 PM
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I have to add something to this conversation, I have done 16 trades on here so far, I know that this number is not high compared to some(Wow Thespian68 where do you find the time), but I am new to dvd talk trading.
I had focused mainly on ebay for the past few years. I love trading here so far but have found that in doing trades on here, I have not been recieving feedback from the Gold traders I have traded with, they apperantly do not think it is worth the time since they are already Gold.
So I still only have a feedback of +8. This is not like other sites like ebay where you always post feedback. Mine is over 300 positives there in just couple years.

This is very frustrating when you want others to trust you, and the people who already have the trust are the ones that are the problem. But I fear that the word GOLD means different things to different people here.

It should mean (I have traded with more then 10 people and they have been satisfied with the trades.) This makes trading much easier and should increase the amount of people who want to trade with you.

But I think that some people want it to mean (I am superior to you since I have been here longer, so you are untrustworthy)
I am not sure that this is what Gold should mean.

I try to use other people's feedback on ebay if they have the same name and e-mail here and there, since that is where I did most buisness before finding this awesome site.

Of course this is just my opinion and I may be wrong.
:-)
Old 11-20-02, 09:28 PM
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My 2 cents..

It is very interesting that a couple of years ago, when I was new, it was expected that I should send first based solely on that fact. I sent first on every trade with a Gold Trader and was never cheated.

Now that I am a Gold Trader many times over, I expect the same courtesy. I do consider a persons trades on other forums, but I put more weight with the record on this forum.

I recently tried to purchase some DVD's from a new member and was told that he would never ship the DVD's without the cash in hand. I told him I was a 'Gold Trader" and he told me that the people on the forum do not even give weight to that title, even Gold Traders. If that is so, why is Michael O'Shea doing all that work?

If it means nothing, then let's forget writing emails to Michael about traders and trades and let him do something else with his valuable time.

For my part, the Good Traders List is an invaluable tool; I appreciate Michael's labor in our behalf, and I am proud to be a Gold Trader.
Old 11-20-02, 09:37 PM
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J.P.V. & Breezy_Pete1 - i agree 100% with you

also i never saw any scams when it was that way - there was no way to lose for a Gold Trader, worst come to worst he didn't mail at all - now a Gold Trader has to risk his dvds with a new member

come on
Old 11-20-02, 09:41 PM
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I think that most Gold Traders feel that they had to send first when they joined, so new traders should have to do the same. You need to prove yourself before others can trust you.
Old 11-20-02, 10:01 PM
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When someone else claims that they have this high status on some other forum, ask them how they obtained that status, by starting off as a newbie and sending first. I'm on 3 different dvd trading forums and I've sent 1st on all 3 until I reached higher status, everyone else should do the same.

I had one guy say he sent payment 3 times to me, and each time a different excuse as to why it didn't get to me. Then he said he would send additional payment since it was probably lost in the mail. I let Mao know, and he promptly corrected the situation and removed the user from the gtl.
Old 11-20-02, 10:21 PM
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codefree - shouldn't get bad murchandice from a Gold Traders
(Maybe a scratched Disc - something of that nature if not rectified) - should count a -1
Old 11-20-02, 10:34 PM
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I am both fairly new and a gold trader, so let me offer some insight. The on thing that I think needs to be standardized is what constitutes a mint disc and what constitutes a non-mint disc. Many new traders do not know what to look for, nor do they know that BBPV needs to be specified. I ask all people who are not gold to ship first and this has saved me at least 20 discs. However, if they disagree, we agree to disagree...most are quite colloquial about it though and we have a great deal and they get a +1. I have completed over 75 trades/purchases/sales on this site with none going completely (aside from mis-description) bad, so I cant complain,
Philip
Old 11-20-02, 10:38 PM
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My Input!!!

When I first started trading on the forum, most Gold Traders did require me to ship out first. This was the case until I started reaching the +6/+7 level. I didn't have a problem with it & I think new traders should come to expect that kind of arrangement as well.

The whole isuue is honor & integrity. When first starting out on the forum, you're working to convince other traders that you do indeed have such qualities. And even after becoming "Gold", continuing on with the effort. If you've been a fair, successful trader......it will carry with you & others will remember your positive reputation as a reputable trader.

To the questions:

#1 - You can use feedback from other sites as a tool, but I wouldn't rely to heavily on it. I wouldn't make a final decision based on such information. In my opinion, providing a known trader (if possible) as reference would carry more weight.

#2 - Part of a successful trade arrangement involves that final step, "shipping". Both traders need to be comfortable with any arrangement, but new traders must realize that a Gold Trader just might ask you to ship first. They (new traders) should expect it. And in the long run, if a new trader is going to get that bent out of shape over the shipping arrangements, who needs it......move on to your next trade. Maybe that one will be more successful.

See you on the "threads"............................................
Old 11-20-02, 10:43 PM
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Everyone knows by now all the problems I have had with some NEW TRADERS. I am not saying all new traders are dishonest or unreliable. From this moment on, a FIRST TIME TRADER will either send first or there will not be a trade with me. We as Good Traders were forced to mail first ? 10 times. Now, it?s their time! Fair is Fair!

If you mail first to NEW TRADERS, particularly NEW FIRST TIME TRADERS, you may not get their movies in return. And again you may not get yours back either. So you lost twice here. Then you will have to take legal action. I am sticking to OUR Golden Rule. NEW TRADERS MAIL FIRST!

One of my trades (Jason Tolliver) has been successfully resolved with a NEW TRADER who is being very cooperative returning my movies, plus sent an extra one for (as he puts it) for being such a dummy. Now, I am wondering who is the real Dummy here. I should have NOT mailed first ? NO EXCEPTIONS. I have had new traders bring up the fact that they have an excellent trading record on eBay so why should they be forced to mail first. So what! You are on my territory now. I think the name of this site is DVD Talk/Exchange. In my opinion, this site has NOTHING to do with eBay, or Yahoo or Amazon.

I would like to suggest that everyone EDIT their PROFILE and add their LOCATION. I get upset sometimes when I think they are located in the U.S., and then I find out after agreeing to the trade that they are in Malaysia or somewhere. And also, please when you REPLY to an email, please put your USER NAME. I have a hard time finding your thread if your email name and user name is different.

O.K. that's Enough - I'm through! I am going to BURN on my forehead ?NEW TRADERS ALWAYS MAIL FIRST? ? NO EXCEPTIONS.

By the way, I want to thank Mao and many, many traders on this site for their great support concerning the bad trades I recently encountered.

Darleen
Old 11-20-02, 10:52 PM
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Originally posted by TnK4God
I have not been recieving feedback from the Gold traders I have traded with, they apperantly do not think it is worth the time since they are already Gold.
I've posted feedback for every single trade I've done here.

Unfortunately, it also took me at least 17 trades before I became a Gold Trader.

Please post feedback
Old 11-20-02, 10:53 PM
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eureka62 - oh yea

i resently made a trade with a guy who was a +7 or 8 and we had trader early when he had to mail 1st - we both sent at the same time on the 2nd trade - didn't hesitate
Old 11-20-02, 11:05 PM
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I am a new trader only 15 or so trades
I didn't mind shipping first to earn my golden spurs
but since I didn't know anyone here
my first few trades I tried to make sure the dvds were on the cheaper side till I learned wheather I could trust the gold to be
golden
I think new comers should ship first unless I have already done a trade with them where they shipped first and I was comfortable shipping at the same time on the 2nd trade etc
I also think people should list at least their state location
and list if a dvd is scratched or not
I have made a trade just to have someone tell me oooh the dvd has some slight scratches
why can't they tell that up front so people don't make offers for dvds they may not want if its scratched
I have traded for scratched dvds it just depends on what I am trading for it and how bad I want it
Just my half cent worth

Last edited by Jems; 11-20-02 at 11:14 PM.
Old 11-20-02, 11:24 PM
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My formula....

I tend to go with instincts at first.

After hundreds of trades, and having experienced MANY sour trades, you kind of get a general sense about it. And to reinforce it, when I am quite not sure about the trader, I ask for his/her name, address and phone number.

Then, I let my desire for acquiring a certain title take over, though this could mean trouble. If it is a title I most definitely want, I become lenient.

But, generally, and to answer the questions, of course the new members should ship first if the gold trader requests so. Hey, we've earned it! :-) And I don't think it is fair to cancel the trade due to shipping arrangements.

Last edited by jinjen; 11-20-02 at 11:28 PM.
Old 11-20-02, 11:29 PM
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As far as sending first... hasn't always been the case. But most of time, I request for someone to send first. I DO NOT post feedback for other gold traders.. I don't see the point. Just takes up space. How much more Gold can one person be? I think I have done at least 50 plus trades and sales.. could be more, and I have yet to be burned. I guess I am just lucky.

Even when I was a Gold Trader, I was asked to send money first, which I did, but was then told, I am not going to wait for the money, we have dealt before and I trust you. Earning the trust is very important. This trading knows who he is and thanks for that trust.

Most new traders will think of us as ganging up on them which is not the case. We are no different than they are as people, just different when it comes to status. It is almost like a job... we earned what we got. In the short time I have been here, I believe I have made myself known as a fair trader and a reliable one.

Recently, I decided to make a second trade with a "newbie" and a day or two later, he was suspended. We continued to talk a little through email and was told, "You will get your movies." 3= weeks later, nothing. Thankfully I never sent the discs... was given some information from another trader that told me not to deal with him for certain reasons.

Gold traders should contact each other and see how certain traders are. Feedback between the two would be a good idea which could avoid problems.

And as far as other forums, it means nothing. It is what you do here is what matters. It has to do with the trust factor. However, I have relied on ebay feedback previously and felt okay sending before I received their discs... even though I had them send first. I later notified them I sent soon after they did.

One thing that must be mentioned is, what if someone who is new gets ripped off by a Gold Trader? Is that Gold trader then put in the bad traders list for not sending regardless of the number of trades they have done? What are the consequences? Do we as Gold traders have an advantage?

Overall... I am for the sending first if you are under Gold trader status.
Old 11-21-02, 12:06 AM
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I don't know how other forums work, so I don't trust feedback from anywhere else. It's somewhat helpful, but not enough. It's too easy to use someone's Ebay name and say, look, I've got great feedback...

On that note, yes, the EBay name I give with my rating in my trade list is my own! :-) I only include it for the people who care about such things...

Last edited by aeron; 11-21-02 at 10:01 PM.
Old 11-21-02, 12:49 AM
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I frequent some of the other forums, so I take feedback into consideration (be it even ebay feedback, heatware, etc.) Some of the newbies got to start somewhere, right?

I agree with many that it's a case by case basis and you learn to trust your instincts. Bad traders usually offer ridiculous deals or deals that are too good to be true, and usually don't send more than one or two emails before they try and move on to another potential victim. If someone is willing to take the time to negotiate with you over emails and I feel comfortable, I usually don't have qualms about sending simultaneously (usually they have feedback anyway).

And yes, I think the good traders list is an invaluable tool. Above all, courtesy and patience dictate the experience.
Old 11-21-02, 01:05 AM
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Re: Should "Gold Traders" mail @ the same time as "Non-Gold Traders"?

Originally posted by lugslady
#2 Once a trade is agreed to with a "new" member do they have the right to cancel the trade because of the shipping agreement?
No personal offense is meant by this, but this to me seems a silly question with an obvious answer: ANY member has the right to cancel ANY trade up until the point when both parties have shipped out their DVDs.

I wrote it before in the half a dozen other threads where we've debated this point, and I'll write it here now...,

NOWHERE in the exchange forum guidelines does it state that the GTL establishes an hierarchy of traders. The forum's own guidelines do not support any attempt to establish a Gold Trader's RIGHT to have non-Gold Traders send first. And I WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree with Thespian68 when he wrote above, "the attitude of superiority... doesn't help the whole environment."

If you've been burned by new traders before, and you refuse to ship simultaneously to new traders, then that is your perogative, and you are entitled to it. But Gold Traders are staining their own reputation with this "holier than thou" attitude about their status.

Gold Traders need to explain POLITELY and COURTEOUSLY to new members that they've been burned before by new members claiming to have excellent ratings in other forums, and because of this, they would like the new members to send their DVDs first.

In my experience, new members respond favorably to POLITE, DETAILED explanations and unfavorably to RUDE, BRIEF, HAUGHTY DEMANDS.

I'm not directing my comments to any ONE member here, but to me, it's no surprise when I read threads here from Gold Traders who write, "I demanded he send first, and he backed out." Did you ever think he backed out because you DEMANDED him to send first instead of EXPLAINING why you want him to send first?

Treat people with respect and you'll get respect; treat people as your subjects and you're going to get attitude.

Last edited by capt._dallas; 11-21-02 at 01:10 AM.
Old 11-21-02, 01:24 AM
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lol good point capt._dallas
the GOLDEN rule should apply do unto others as you would have them do unto you
unless you get a nasty feeling they are up to hanky panky (grin)
Old 11-21-02, 04:53 AM
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Many good points being made here; I'd like to agree wholeheartedly with everyone who's stated that there's nothing stronger than instinct when dealing with people; if someone is curt and non-communicative about a deal it's less likely I'll be willing to take a risk if I haven't dealt with them before. It costs absolutely nothing to use courtesy and...god forbid...punctuation :-) in your emails. If someone doesn't have the time to write back more than a 4 word answer that goes something like this: ny othrz 4 trad? then I'm not sure we're actually on the same wavelength. We're all dealing with other people here; if you haven't got time to communicate even briefly to the other person, why would they think you're going to deal honestly with them? BTW, this is more the exception, I think, than the rule, but I've been surprised at how often it does happen...

I've made about 30 or so trades here, and for what it's worth, the only time I got burned was from a Gold Trader who asked me to ship first. He'd done "over 100 trades" which I think was legitimate, but I, and at least one other person here, never got our stuff. So Gold is a good guide, surely, but nothing's 100%. I do, however, check the GTL and have more confidence if I see that someone has that status. Especially if I see that they're constantly on the boards and making trades. And I shipped first to several others that went just fine.

Bill G., you're certainly right about Gold Traders not really needing the feedback with our system. However, I will chime in that, for me, if I haven't traded in a couple of weeks or so, I think of the current good traders thread as advertising, from both ends. If several people have just posted wonderful things about a trader, hey, it can't hurt to have others see it if you're trying to get some other deals going...

In the end, though, as someone stated above, if you're not comfortable with a trade, don't do it. Even if it's the exact disc you've been trying to get for a long time. This is supposed to a good time here, not a source of agitation. Unfortunately, there are always going to be predators in the pool...
Old 11-21-02, 10:30 AM
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Originally posted by PThron
It costs absolutely nothing to use courtesy and...god forbid...punctuation :-) in your emails.
That is a GREAT point! I too have received ridiculously abbreviated emails.

the only time I got burned was from a Gold Trader who asked me to ship first. He'd done "over 100 trades" which I think was legitimate, but I, and at least one other person here, never got our stuff. So Gold is a good guide, surely, but nothing's 100%.


I've been a part of at least 60 transactions here since May 2000. About 6 or 8 months ago, I started keeping a personal $%&! list to remind me of DVDTalk members who either ignored my email proposals or backed out of deals when we've finalized arrangements or simply acted rudely in our correspondence. The list is only 6 members only, but guess what? Yep, they're all Gold Traders (including, not surprisingly, one member who has contributed to this thread).

Again, I'm not directing the following comment to any specific member or to any specific comment made on this thread, but I am amused by the hypocrisy of many Gold Traders.

Too many Gold Traders here DICTATE terms to new members but don't even have the decency to respond to the proposals made to them. In fact, I can relate one experience I've had with a Gold Trader here who has repeatedly made a stink about new members sending first and new members treating him with the respect he has earned because, dammit, he's a Gold Trader and thou shalt bow before him:

I had a trade thread up about six months ago, and he emailed me a prosposal: my "Brainstorm" for his "Apocalypse Now Redux." I replied that I would like to do that trade, and we had traded before but I had forgotten his address so could he remind me of it. Well...

One day goes by and he doesn't respond back.

A second day goes by and he doesn't respond back.

Finally, on the third day, I emailed him again asking if he had received my previous email and if we're still doing the trade. He replies that he's reconsidered and he doesn't want to do that trade.

Well, thanks for keeping me informed, you jerk! (Right now DVDave is LOL. David isn't the trader I'm writing about, but he knows who I am writing about, right David?)

My larger point here is that Gold Traders NEED TO GET OFF THEIR HIGH HORSE, RIGHT NOW!! This whole fraternity boy mentality ("Well, since I got hazed, the new pledges have to get hazed too") is for the birds!

Actually, I change my mind, I think we should petition Mao to change the forum guidelines. From now on, all new members must address Gold Traders as "his/her Eminence." If they fail to do so, they're suspended from the forum for a week. I mean, who the heck do these new members think they are!?

By the way, when I was a new member back in May 2000 I didn't have to send my DVDs first. When all I had was an Ebay rating to support me, no member ever asked me to send first. I guess I seemed honest enough in my correspondence to earn the other member's trust (and let's face it I was trading for stuff like "Sleepy Hollow" and "Chicken Run," not "Sid and Nancy:CC" and "Salo:CC").

Keith
Public Defender of New Traders

Last edited by capt._dallas; 11-21-02 at 09:09 PM.

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