Keith,

The only abbreviation in an email I want to see is LMK. How hard is it to properly type out (with punctuation and NO CAPS LOCK) an email?

As for your second point, I totally disagree with you in the fraternity metaphor. If someone is new there is absolutely no way of justifying whether they are trustworthy or not. This is not to say that all gold traders are worthy either. To me, I rely heavily on the sustem that Mao has set up but I take into account the amount of activity I see from a particular trader (postings and polishes received) and gold trader status when I am deciding on a trade. I certainly don't think asking a new member to send first is hazing, it's just a way to protect oneself when there is no other way to establish trust and no good course of action to take if a trade goes bad.

My most recent trading snag was a dealing with the now infamous Jason Tolliver. I entered into a trade with him and since he had no feedback whatsoever I asked that he send first. I wasn't particulary eloquent when I asked, I simply asked. He agreed and said the dvds would ship out the next day. A week goes by and I see a thread that Mao closed which he refered to DVD_Trader_#1. I then realized that was who I had made a trade with and contact Jason to see what the story was and whether he shipped my dvds. He said he was sick and that would send as soon as he could. At that moment I was thankful that I had him send first because if I hadn't I fully expect I would never have seen anything from him. In the subsequent days I assisted Darleen in helping to track Jason down and exert some pressure on him (with help from other members) to return her dvds. I do believe that situation was settled, right Darleen? After that situation I had some choice words over email with Jason and we agreed that when and if I received the dvds from him I would send them back (this also has to do with verification of Hason's age and the nature of movie I was trading). Anyway, I received his dvds (which were in a horrid condition, cracked case, scratches) and was happy that we had already agreed to reverse the swap. While certainly not a smooth process, Jason Tolliver actually sent the dvds so I do retract my statements regarding his integrity but I would recommend no one deal with because it was like pulling teeth to get a straight answer from him.

In conclusion, gold traders do not specifically have the right to demand that a new member send first but this is something that I require in my dealings and will ask for. A trade is between me and the person I am dealing with, this forum merely provides a method for bringing two parties together. While I do appreciate this forum, it in no way can protect me in any legal way if the trade goes bad, so I will protect my interests by asking new members to send first. If they refuse I will simply not do the trade.


Chris
Public Defender of Myself and Other Gold Traders

Keith -

Are you talking about me behind my back again ?! I'm sick and tired of hearing this type of *@&! from you! Why don't you just get off my back and crawl back under the rock you came from?!


Alright, I've been keeping an eye on this thread long enough - I think it's time for me to toss in my two cents.

Seriously, this type of thread seems to pop up every so often. Doesn't anybody learn? Or at least go over the Forum Guidelines and the GTL?! The GTL, while not the most reliable, is a very helpful tool in discerning whether or not you're dealing with experienced traders. Note that I didn't use "GOLD" in describing traders - as everybody knows, being "GOLD" simply means you've made over 10 trades. It's not a reflection on how you've conducted yourself to get there. It's not some sort of feedback system a la EBay - positive or negative - it's just a way to keep track of who's doing what. Having said that, there are a few "GOLD" traders here that I wouldn't deal with even if they own the only copy of (insert title here). Some "GOLD" traders are just plain rude and condescending in the way they deal with other traders. Like capt_dallas, I have my own personal *%!@^ list of traders I would never deal with. Granted, new traders don't know better, and experience is their only teacher, but that's how you learn the ropes. This thread brought out some of the better traders in this forum IMO and I wouldn't mind seeing this as a sticky for new traders to peruse. If in doubt, go through the list of traders on this thread, pick a couple, and ask them questions regarding a possible trade scenario. I, for one, wouldn't mind answering questions about whether this and that trader is reliable, is a jerk, or is a reliable jerk. I'm sure Keith, Public Defender of New Traders (capt_dallas) wouldn't mind answering similar questions, as will some other traders on this thread. All I'm saying is, let's help each other out in rearing the young'uns - not only would we ensure a safer and more enjoyable trading experience for them, we also do it for our own sake. If we don't help each other out, who will? Unless we get an official feedback system, this is the next best thing we can do for the forum and ourselves - both new and GOLD. I wouldn't dare ask Michael as I'm sure he's got his hands full already, but just a thought to ponder. Let's look out after each other - that's the only way I can see the forum stay safe and enjoyable.

Off my soapbox,
Ray
Public Assistant Defender of New Traders

I've completed probably 5 trades on here. I hardly ever get feedback though. I have almost 200 positives on ebay. Yet if someone has completed 10 trades here, I have to send first all the time. What I'll do is send my stuff, get the receipt, then scan it and email it to them.

But Gold Traders, jeez, if someone has like 200 on ebay and 5000 posts here, do you think they are really gonna rip you off?

i-bystander- Ray:

I wholeheartedly agree with your comment re: making this thread a sticky for reading. It might prove helpful to new traders/board members, as it presents real life experiences, several positions on the issue, and a few words of wisdom gleaned from experience. And the beauty of it is, no one opinion is right/wrong. I may be in the camp of "Gold doesnt mean an absolute credo that the other person who isnt Gold has to send first", but there are some very valid and well argued positions from the other side of the coin. And unlike so many threads, this one has not degenerated into name calling and petulant whining <knock on wood>.

And like you and Keith (capt_dallas), I have a small list of people whose trade offers I always acknowledge politely, but will never trade with for poor attitude or obsession for lopsided trades in their favor. Sadly, all but one are Gold Traders.

Ray, I remember the first trade we made...in fact I also remember the first one Keith and I made...neither of you guys were Gold...I was...but I didnt give it a thought. You both are class examples of why I dont worry about sending first to newer traders...clearly trusting my own judgment paid off, as our trades were flawless, and you both made Gold in short order.

And as so many people posting in this thread....new, GTL listed , or Gold have pretty much inferred....go with your instincts. Guidelines, whether flexible or rigid are always up to each trader to decide for themselves. For those new or getting to know the DVDTalk trade world, read up a little, note the opinions and views of the people here, and decide whats best for you.

Greg
Philosopher Emiratus

Well,

I guess I'll contribute here as well and reiterate points I see coming up here and there.

I had to send first on my first trade. This was back in early 1999, and the GTL was just getting started. The trader (actually seller) in question didn't leave any feedback for me. I totally trusted that person, and had it not turned out good, I perhaps wouldn't have gotten into trading as I have. I don't hold a grudge for him requiring that I send first. I do not think that gives me the right to require anyone else to send first. Had it not been such a good deal for the next three trades, I might have had to send first there as well. Luckily they didn't ask me (just too good of a deal for them ). However, once I had obtained a +2 or more, I would have questioned someone who requested that I send first due to the fact that they (theoretically) had only 8 trades more than I. Of course there are Gold Traders on here that have significantly more trades than that, but you get my point. I had references at that point. If I had such a request, I feel confident in having every right to back out of the deal, as should any of these people who are forced to trust you. That is, if they want the deal that bad. Trust CAN'T be forced. The GTL is only a gauge, just as my +2 was a gauge way back when. The more references you have the better of course. I like the HTF version of the GTL better than here because you can see how "golden" the person is. Trading is risky whether you are a gold trader or not. In fact, the only time I have been duped or had problems on this board is from someone posing as a gold trader. I do request that someone who has absolutely no references on this board send first however. If I have a good feeling about the trader (or prospective trader as the case may be) then, if I have a delivery confirmation of something like that I may decide to send semi-simultaneously anyway.

I like the "Golden" rule comment. That applies here as well. Just because you are "Gold" doesn't mean you can stop acting "Golden". You haven't earned trust with that individual until they have had dealings with you personally. That personal relationship is what governs that trade, not some list that can (and has in some cases) be manipulated. On another note, I always ask that the person leave feedback for me, and, whether or not they are a "Gold" trader I try my hardest to at least ask if they want me to leave feedback for them. I don't think I've forgotten to add feedback for anyone I've traded with.

I keep seeing in people's threads how they are adding additional rules to this forum trading practices by stating that if the other trader isn't gold, they would have to send first. Did you ever wonder how many decent offers you have missed out on due to that attitude? Just remember the Golden Rule is "Do unto other as you would have them do unto you" and not "Do unto others as you have been done to"

I'm not even going to get into personal $hit lists, huh Keith?



David
Just Another Trader


edited to ad my humble title

edited again to add the word $hit

As soon as Mao updates the DVD trader list, I'll be a Gold Trader, so here goes my point-of-view:

In regards to sending first, I take it on a case by case basis. Unlike what other people have said, I do and would use eBay feedback history. Speaking of myself I have a +238 on eBay and that's NO neutrals, NO negatives. 283 positives both as a buyer and a seller.

Anyone experienced with eBay and their feedback system knows this is a very big rarity. Some people's feedback even gets trashed accidentally sometimes as newbies who do not understand the system will leave neutral or negative feedback with comments like "Where do I send payment?" and eBay feedback system is irreversible!

For Gold Traders, so you have +10 or more transactions . . . and? How did those trades go through? If the feedback system similar to eBay was in place, how many of your 50 trades would have neutral or even negative feedback even though the trade did go through?

I would take eBay feedback over a Gold Trader status anytime.

I've had better luck dealing with new traders, better trades are worked out. It seems many more experienced traders make it their business to try to squeeze blood out of the new trader's turnip. I've got the crappiest offers from those who are constantly on the forum and constantly bumping up their posts.

My first few trades (done with DVD Gold Traders: simdarhan and Jonathan Habers) were great, however, they did not ask for me to send the DVDs first . . . I appreciated that and it looks like I lucked out in those regards.

I'd also like to add something about Ebay references. They show sucessful transactions sure, but if you have a problem (as a ebay buyer or seller), you can take action through ebay. Its not like you can go and post feedback on their ebay account. Sure, its a consideration, but not an accountable one.

Would also be nice if some Gold Traders would actually
leave feedback. Its bad enough sending first.
But then you have to email again and beg to leave it.
I am not saying all don't. But lately I have noticed this.

As for some of the incoherent trade emails I have
recieved. I wonder if some traders even graduated
Grade School. And that includes some Gold Traders.
Its a big turn off for me, maybe others do not care.

Plus if a trader sends first. Do not delay shipping our
items to us once you get your item. No excuses like
I addressed it wrong or the cat coughed up a hairball.

I just became a gold trader, and as a non gold trader, I had to pay or send first before I got the discs in most cases, I think it is easy enough to become a gold trader here, a new trader has to prove him/herself first, and Ebay feedback does not matter in this board, as that is a different forum all together. Non gold members need to earn this and it does take a little time, but look at all the unsuccessful trades listed on the gold board, that is proof enough that you must send first as a new person.

Chris,

Actually I agree that you have the right to request new members that they send first. I've stated in a previous post that ANY trader is entitled to trade any way he/she wishes.

HOWEVER, what's ridiculous is how some Gold Traders get bent out of shape when new traders don't wish to send first and then cancel the trade. That is the new member's RIGHT. If they don't wish to send first, fine, no trade.

I'm NOT stating that requesting new members to send first is a form of hazing here. What I AM stating is that the ATTITUDE that "I sent first when I was a newbie, so these newbies now have to send first to me" is a hazing mentality.

Most of my trades don't involve expensive OOP or multiple titles or Season box sets. If a new trader wanted to trade for my... let's say... ST:TNG: Season 4, a set I would have to spend between $70-90 to reacquire, I admit I would "request" that the new trader send his/her DVDs first because I wouldn't feel comfortable sending that expensive a set to someone who isn't established on the forum. HOWEVER, I would make sure the new member understood exactly why I'm requesting he/she send first, and yes, I would reference the "Bad Trader's list" on the GTL and briefly mention how Alex Murphy and others tried to scam multiple people out of DVDs. In my experience, new members respond well to honest, detailed explanations. If I simply stated, "I'm a Gold Trader: that means you send first. I sent first when I was a newbie, that means you send first because you're a newbie" I would be presenting a hazing mentality. A hazing mentality isn't good for the forum.

Now it's time to prepare a reply to my old nemesis from Chicago... i-bystander

Ray--
How many times have we traded? Well, I regret each one of them. I mean, trading with you is like beer-goggling. At the time I feel like I'm getting a great deal, and then after the hangover, I'm hanging my head in shame. Trading you my "Hard Boiled:CC" for your "Justice League" seemed like a good idea at the time. Any way we can reverse that trade?


DVDave--
I knew if I called you out, you'd have to join this party, right? Hey, I'm not on your $%^! list, am I? What am I, Anime_Guy? I owe you an email buddy, don't lose faith


Greg (Thespian68)--
Thanks for your compliments. You taught I-bystander and I how to be GOOD traders, and I thank you for having faith in me when we traded WAY back when.

One great thing about this site that everyone is entitled to their own opinion! A couple of gold traders are complaining about being screwed by other gold traders. This isn't even the point of this thread. First of all, it's about new traders and how they should ship. A gold trader obviously has had to make 10 successful traders. Right? Now, if a gold trader doesn't send on his end or cheats another trader; he should be suspended immediately? Now back to the new traders, there is no way that you can convince me to send at the same time"roll the dice" with a new member - Why do we even have a gold traders list and not even use it? I think its something that we have gotten away from.

P.S. Trust and respect is not something you demand; it is something you earn. Not just on this site but in life in general.

Fine, and you're entitled to that opinion. If you refuse to send first to new members..., I'll say it AGAIN..., that's YOUR perogative.

BUT you have no right to get mad at the new traders who refuse to ship first to you and consequently back out of the deal. If they don't agree to your terms, that's THEIR perogative!

Ok....Gold Traders....

Please leave feedback for all trades.
Problem is not all of you do.
Its like you are keeping the the new traders down.

So if you are going to make ship first rule, then
at least you should leave feedback for us.
Sadly many do not of late..
Or we have to beg beg beg...and still NOTHING.

Why is that so many of late do not leave feedback???

i'm not getting mad, this thread is for everybody - lol

"just an opinion" and i also think 3 or 4 traders with the so called **** list as they call them just might happen to be on my, as i call it "no trade list" or "no personality list '

Well, I know there's no way me, David (DVDave), Greg (Thespian68) and Ray (i-bystander) are on ANYBODY's "no personality list" because our personalities just SPARKLE all over this forum! Right, guys?

(grin) aaah so thats why everyone wears sun glasses

lol - just having some fun with you guys

another thought is the personality of the 2 traders making the trade - something they just clash or just trade too much alike.

after reading all the replies, its has makes me want to approach "new trader" a little differently about sending 1st

heck - i might even send at the same time now with a new trader

how big is a mite ?

I agree that in small trades it may be okay to send at the same time--I take it on a case-to-case basis. Like you said, in a large deal, things are different. But I don't understand why it would be necessary to explain why you want someone to send first. Of course you would request that exactly because you're afraid of being ripped off...What other reason would there be?

I always try to politely request that they send first, and usually traders agree to it. If not, I offer to send if they use confirmation. And I've never been refused, nor had problems in this situation...

Basically, I've adopted the following general principle: if I am trading for an expensive item or a lot of items, I will mostly only trade with a gold trader, or, better, someone with whom I've dealt successfully before; otherwise, I'm lenient...Small trades aren't huge deals. I'm willing to send at the same time often, or immediately after confirmation...

As for the people who aren't getting feedback posted...Just remind us! I do try to post, and I promise that if I get an e-mail, I'll post...

-- Aeron

P.S. Lugslady asked "how big is a mite?", to which I respond: Mite-y big! :-)

I hear you, and I'm just playing around with you too. I NEVER intend my comments to be taken personally. I mean, geez, we're discussing DVDs here, if we take all of this too seriously, we need a shrink.

You're right before though: you never did state you were "mad" at new members, so I take that comment back, and I hope it didn't rub you the wrong way.

Alright, I think I've opened my big obnoxious New York mouth long enough on this thread.

Take care, everyone, and look forward to trading with you all in the future.

Keith

Hahaha...thats it....I figure its either my wry sense of humor, or the fact I have ready access to good Canadian beer that makes me so popular....the jury's still out

Randy/Stefanie: I'll give you credit for commenting you might ship first to a newbie...even if its a small "mite". Likewise, I know there are situations where I would ask a new trader to ship first, as Keith pointed out, perhaps if a larger value shipment were involved. Its not my usual approach, but shows that each "camp" of thought on the topic can see that there is merit to the other's sides views. Good lesson for all of us.

Maybe one thing we are all seeing out of this thread is that a hard and fast rule is good as a guide, but need not be etched in stone for each and every situation. For those who have a non-flexible rule that makes them happy, great. I prefer to look at each situation. But I stay open to the possibility I may change in time and become less flexible should I ever get burned in a trade <knock on wood>.

And should I ever miss posting feedback, please remind me. I'm always happy to give credit where credit is due.

Since you said no one is getting your point, allow me to address your question with my opinion:

1. What kind of "demands" from new traders are you talking about? Please be specific. There are certain situations where not seeing eye to eye would result in a cancelled trade, thus resulting in losing the fun out of trading.

2. If you're referring to feedback from other sites, having it count here is entirely up to you. If you feel the other trader is sincere and that they earned that type of feedback that they are presenting you, then I say yes it should count. Note, though, that it should be assessed on a case-by-case basis - just because new traders don't have feedback here doesn't mean they're not honest & reliable traders. We all had to start somewhere, and good feedback from other sites is definitely helpful. It doesn't mean you have to accept it as a form of "reference", but at least acknowledge it. Again, and let me just stress this out, this matter is entirely up to you.

3. A trade is not complete or agreed to unless shipping has been addressed! Shipping is a major part of the trade, and it could very well be the most important part of the agreement - if you can't agree on how to ship, how can you make a trade?! In other words, you can't consider a trade as being "agreed to" until you hammer out the shipping aspect of it. Just because you both agreed to trade Title A for Title B doesn't mean it ends there - that's simply the first part of the trade. This applies to everybody, not just with new traders. Do you seriously consider a trade as being "agreed to" when you can't agree on shipping? Come on!

Ty -

I'm sure it's nothing personal and your numbers are certainly impressive, but it's more for "protection", rather than lack of trust. Quite a few of us have been burned in the past, and it's simply a matter of establishing the above mentioned trust. I know where you're coming from, but a few of us have become jaded that we can't see the forest for the trees!

Ray

Greg -

Thanks for the kind words!

Suffice it to say that we're on the same side of the coin - others might not see it as such, but "GOLD" doesn't necessarily mean "GOOD". The GTL is a counter, not a popularity contest - I'm sure you'll agree.

jarsim -

I haven't had the pleasure of trading with you, but you're "GOLD" in my book already!

That's exactly my sentiment, and you put it so eloquently that all I have to do is quote it.