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Disney's The Punisher and the Thin Blue Line Skull

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Disney's The Punisher and the Thin Blue Line Skull

Old 05-31-20, 03:32 PM
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Disney's The Punisher and the Thin Blue Line Skull

This is a response to something said in the Politics forum but I don't think it was appropriate to continue this discussion in that particular thread (which started with post #203) so I'll respond here.


Originally Posted by Red Hood View Post
I'm sorry, but this isn't Disney's or Marvel's fault.
I never said it was Disney's or Marvel's fault for Sean Hannity choosing to wear a "Thin Blue Line" Skull pin. I also never said it was Marvel's fault for cops choosing to adorn themselves with an appropriated logo of a fictional character who illegally brutalizes and kills criminals with a complete disregard for due process, right to an attorney, trial by jury, etc.

What I am saying is that it's problematic that a huge corporation like Disney, who's known for producing children's entertainment, and it's subsidiary Marvel Comics which is known for producing children's entertainment, promotes, publishes and licenses a character like The Punisher, who's considered a "good guy" and appears in the same universe and along side characters like Spider-man and Captain America. It's no surprise to me that unethical cops have adopted the character as one of their own and appropriated the logo.

Our society has a problem with cigarette smoking and kids smoking in particular. Marvel banned their characters from smoking (with the exception of villains) in their comics starting in 2001. Disney took it a step further banning smoking from all their movies starting in 2015. I guess Marvel is blaming themselves for people smoking using your logic.

We have a problem with racism in our society. What about white people doing blackface in the entertainment industry? What about racial tropes? I guess we shouldn't criticize that either? It doesn't contribute to racism to some degree, in your opinon?

Our society has a problem with sexual assault and rape. Various articles after the #MeToo movement came out which were critical of Hollywood's normalization of rape culture. In your opinion were they blaming Hollywood for rape?

Lets see:

Originally Posted by The Guardian
People who watched these movies weren’t inspired to go out and sexually assault other people, of course, but if you were a horny young guy in the 80s, movies such as Animal House suggested there was always a devil on your shoulder urging you to do the wrong thing to get sex. And if you did so, it would be within the bounds of “goofy” behaviour. Nor would such behaviour be an impediment to high office in later life. At the end of Animal House, Belushi’s character is revealed to have become… a US senator.
Originally Posted by VOX
That doesn’t mean that people went to see movies like Sixteen Candles and immediately thought, “Wow, that looks like fun, I’d better go get a bunch of girls drunk and have sex with them without their consent.” Sixteen Candles is not single-handedly responsible for the rape culture of the 1980s. But like all popular culture, it does both reflect and help to shape the social context in which it exists.

The dominant culturalnarrative at the time of Brett Kavanaugh’s high school experience was the one offered by Sixteen Candles. And it taught any girl who went to a party and got assaulted by an acquaintance that whatever happened to her was surely her fault, that it proved she was the wrong kind of girl, that it was funny, that she had nothing whatsoever to complain about, and that it absolutely wasn’t rape.

Under those circumstances, the mystery is not why “any person would continue to go to … ten parties over a two-year period where women were routinely gang raped and not report it,” as Sen. Graham argued. The mystery is why anyone ever came forward with their story at all.
So no, they're not shifting the blame from the actual rapists to Hollywood films. But what they are saying is that the films influence the attitudes of people in society.

America has a problem with mass shootings, ideas of toxic masculinity, and people-blacks in particular-brutalized and killed by "the good guys" aka the police. And yet, the portrayal of a mainstream Disney/Marvel character like the Punisher is above criticism? That makes no sense.


Your comment is akin to blaming the creator of Pepe the Frog when racist assholes stole it as their symbol for racism.
Again, I'm not blaming Disney for the actions of Sean Hannity and the cops who use that symbol.

However, you're not even using a good analogy. You're comparing Pepe the Frog, a character that was made in MS Paint and posted on someone's MySpace page in 2005, and which became popular within the 4chan forums, with a major comic book/cartoon/film/television character with owned by the Disney corporation? And from what I understand the original Pepe comic was stuff like him pissing saying "it feels good man" and barfing on his friend. Somehow random people on the internet took those images and likeness and added their own racist symbols and imagery to it.

Now, what was my criticism of that particular mainstream Disney/Marvel character?
But also, maybe Disney of all companies shouldn't be putting out a character that promotes the most extreme forms of toxic masculinity and gun violence?...Yet, they still publish and promote The Punisher, a white man who's had enough, and takes the law into his own hands using stolen and/or straw purchased guns to murder "thugs."
That's not random people adding to that, that's the official portrayal of the character by Disney.

Punisher is a murderous vigilante that lives outside the law. The fact that assholes like Chris Kyle, people in the military and the police force have taken the Punisher's belief system and symbolism should have disqualified them all from being part of law enforcement in the first place.
We're in total agreement.

What this says is that these assholes want to live this murder fantasy outside the confines of the law, which they are supposed to protect and serve. Punisher's creator has been extremely vocal about this and as recently as last year, the comic book writer Matthew Rossenberg made a point on the Punisher book to send this same message. The fact that right wing assholes and racist like Trump have supported this logo and that people in law enforcement have taken it as their own says that there needs to be a reform in who gets hired for these law enforcement jobs. It should have been the government's job to have banned this symbol in their workplace.
It doesn't matter what the Punisher's creator said. It's how the character is portrayed and how mainstream it is that's the problem. How many people even know who actually created The Punisher. Is Gerry Conway a household name?
And what you posted doesn't address what I said about the Punisher, which was about toxic masculinity, gun violence and mass shootings. He's a white "good guy" that uses illegally obtained guns to kill people he deems are criminals. Sometimes following the law doesn't work, you have to break the law to punish criminals, right? They deserve to be killed. That's the message of the Punisher. If someone wants to tell that story, they have that right. But it's just really questionable that Disney/Marvel is the one to do it and pushing the character so hard in the mainstream to the point he's even appearing in kids cartoons like "Superhero Squad."


Maybe they can make a Paul Kersey one.

I wouldn't have even brought any of this up in the other thread, but you mentioned that you hoped Disney would sue them, and my point was that Disney should do more, and not just for the cop skull logo.

With all that said, the whole idea of the "Thin Blue Line" Skull, and cops acting and operating like gang members, and "respected" political commentators like Sean Hannity normalizing that behavior is something I'm going to post about in the politics forum later.

Last edited by brayzie; 05-31-20 at 03:39 PM.
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Old 05-31-20, 03:50 PM
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Re: Disney's The Punisher and the Thin Blue Line Skull

I guess I shouldn't bring up this particular plotline:

https://www.cbr.com/remember-to-forg...e-a-black-guy/

One thing I don't get is how you say they changed Wolverine to curb his smoking habit. They did a similar thing with the Punisher as evidenced above. That panel is not from a decades-old comic, that's Marvel (or the writer they hired) seeing what's going on and addressing it in the present. Isn't that what you're asking for?

As far as him being in the Super Hero Squad, I don't remember if he's in the cartoon but that's problematic with a lot of these characters, especially ones that they try to later tone down. Someone like Harley Quinn should in no way be associated with something like Super Hero Girls, shouldn't be portrayed as a hero at all, and definitely shouldn't have a bunch of child-age costumes (not only super hero girls-type ones but actual Suicide Squad the movie ones, which is insane to me). Same with Deadpool. I remarked some time ago that I was shocked when I went to my kids' middle school Halloween parade and there were a bunch of Suicide Squad Harleys. So in that sense I agree with you, if you want to make characters grimdark don't try to make them appeal to kids.

I have no idea if they made Joker costumes for the recent movie (or any movie) for kids but man I hope not.
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Old 05-31-20, 04:55 PM
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Re: Disney's The Punisher and the Thin Blue Line Skull

The Super Hero Squad figure was done before Disney bought Marvel and it's no different to all the toddler and kids toys of the Joker. There's tons of figures for kids with guns like GI Joes, Transformers, Marvel, DC, etc. It's up to the parents to tell them right from wrong.

Here's the appearance of Punisher in the Super Hero Squad show and it's pretty funny

Old 05-31-20, 05:02 PM
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Re: Disney's The Punisher and the Thin Blue Line Skull

Punisher is not considered a good guy. He's mostly a bad guy and similar to Venom, he's an anti-hero that fights crime but his actions aren't condoned by the good guys. It's just a character and the fact is that racist cops and soldiers and general assholes have misinterpreted Frank Castle from day 1, mostly because they haven't read the book. Same way with Rambo and other gun totting characters. My point is, that it's ridiculous to put the blame on Disney on Marvel for the character and his mainstream popularity doesn't have anything to do with how they have characterized Frank Castle. The popularity among these assholes is because of how they have mis-characterized him.
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Old 05-31-20, 05:32 PM
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Re: Disney's The Punisher and the Thin Blue Line Skull

I just saw this in the other thread:

People LOVE trying to blame an outside source, the media for example, to explain all the shit that happens due to simple shitty human nature. It's not caused by... rock and roll...heavy metal music...
Popular bands like Iggy Pop/The Stooges, The Sex Pistols and Siouxsie and the Banshees were doing Nazi salutes, wearing swastikas, and putting racist lyrics in their music. What a surprise that neo-Nazi skinheads became attracted to their music and started becoming part of the punk scene.


Famous Sid Vicious wearing swastika photo
Spoiler:





...comic books...
Yeah, because comics books never played a part in perpetuating and reinforcing racism.

NSFW racist Marvel Comics/Fawcett Comics covers
Spoiler:








violent video games, etc. People have been pulling this finger pointing game for years now, and it's rarely true.
I know that probably everyone here will deny that violent video games are problematic, but what about sexism in video games? I could be wrong, but wasn't there a thing called "GamerGate"? And criticism of a toxic, sexist culture in a segment of gamers?

Kind of NSFW Dead or Alive game images.
Spoiler:



I'm not saying that these types of games and depictions of women make you a misogynist, but it probably helps to reinforce the sexual objectification of women in society and an unhealthy attitude towards women in general.

I see your and raise you a .

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Old 05-31-20, 05:48 PM
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Re: Disney's The Punisher and the Thin Blue Line Skull

Originally Posted by fujishig View Post
I guess I shouldn't bring up this particular plotline:

https://www.cbr.com/remember-to-forg...e-a-black-guy/
I remember seeing that. I also remember that Luke Cage and Black Punisher were on the cover and their faces were drawn EXACTLY the same. So he became a black guy for a few issues and...?

One thing I don't get is how you say they changed Wolverine to curb his smoking habit. They did a similar thing with the Punisher as evidenced above. That panel is not from a decades-old comic, that's Marvel (or the writer they hired) seeing what's going on and addressing it in the present. Isn't that what you're asking for?
It's not solely the cops appropriating The Punisher and then a writer addressing it after the fact. It's the problematic nature of the character in general and how he's marketed that I find fault with. Considering we're so concerned as a society with the issues of toxic masculinity, gun violence, mass shootings, and law enforcement's brutality and unlawful killings, and considering that we criticize entertainment for potentially having a negative effect on society for other things (racism, sexism, sexual assault, racial stereotypes, cigarette smoking, discrimination) it's odd that in this particular instance people have no problem justifying it.

As far as him being in the Super Hero Squad, I don't remember if he's in the cartoon but that's problematic with a lot of these characters, especially ones that they try to later tone down. Someone like Harley Quinn should in no way be associated with something like Super Hero Girls, shouldn't be portrayed as a hero at all, and definitely shouldn't have a bunch of child-age costumes (not only super hero girls-type ones but actual Suicide Squad the movie ones, which is insane to me). Same with Deadpool. I remarked some time ago that I was shocked when I went to my kids' middle school Halloween parade and there were a bunch of Suicide Squad Harleys. So in that sense I agree with you, if you want to make characters grimdark don't try to make them appeal to kids.
I don't have a problem with a character like The Punisher existing. It's an issue of art, entertainment, and free expression. But like you said, when it gets to the point that it's so mainstream that a character is even being marketed to kids, it's a problem.


Old 05-31-20, 05:55 PM
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Re: Disney's The Punisher and the Thin Blue Line Skull

Originally Posted by brayzie View Post
I remember seeing that. I also remember that Luke Cage and Black Punisher were on the cover and their faces were drawn EXACTLY the same. So he became a black guy for a few issues and...?


It's not solely the cops appropriating The Punisher and then a writer addressing it after the fact. It's the problematic nature of the character in general and how he's marketed that I find fault with. Considering we're so concerned as a society with the issues of toxic masculinity, gun violence, mass shootings, and law enforcement's brutality and unlawful killings, and considering that we criticize entertainment for potentially having a negative effect on society for other things (racism, sexism, sexual assault, racial stereotypes, cigarette smoking, discrimination) it's odd that in this particular instance people have no problem justifying it.

.
I meant we shouldn't bring that plotline up because it's cringeworthy.

The character represents someone who feels like the law let him down and takes matters into his own hands by killing them. From the start this put him at odds with super heroes like Spider-man. He's not law enforcement (and in many cases is decidedly against them) so i don't see how he in particular is portraying law enforcement abuse or even toxic masculinity. He's not meant to be a hero. Though I have no idea how he's portrayed now in the comics (which kids don't read anyway) and I haven't seen him in a mainstream setting in a while (has he been on any of the Disney Spider-man or Avengers cartoons?)

This is a genre that glorifies costumed vigilantes who take the law into their own hands (though oftentime they don't kill). If you want to remove all things we consider in society to be problematic, the super hero genre is basically dead.
Old 05-31-20, 06:02 PM
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Re: Disney's The Punisher and the Thin Blue Line Skull

Originally Posted by Red Hood
The Super Hero Squad figure was done before Disney bought Marvel and it's no different to all the toddler and kids toys of the Joker. There's tons of figures for kids with guns like GI Joes, Transformers, Marvel, DC, etc. It's up to the parents to tell them right from wrong.
So if in the comics and movies Wolverine was shown having sex with women who were clearly intoxicated and in no way able to consent, and Captain America was portrayed as a MAGA supporter, it would be okay, because it's up to the parents to tell them right from wrong, correct?



Punisher is not considered a good guy. He's mostly a bad guy and similar to Venom, he's an anti-hero that fights crime but his actions aren't condoned by the good guys.
C'mon. He' a good guy. A superhero even. The Marvel and DC universe is divided into good guys and bad guys. Yeah, there's shades of grey once in a while, but the binary, good/bad dynamic is always there.





It's just a character and the fact is that racist cops and soldiers and general assholes have misinterpreted Frank Castle from day 1, mostly because they haven't read the book.
So he's not a good guy but racist cops and soldiers have "misinterpreted" him?

Same way with Rambo and other gun totting characters.
I'd argue that Rambo never should have been made into a Saturday morning cartoon show for kids. And not just because the cartoon was crap.
Old 05-31-20, 06:34 PM
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Re: Disney's The Punisher and the Thin Blue Line Skull

Originally Posted by brayzie View Post
So if in the comics and movies Wolverine was shown having sex with women who were clearly intoxicated and in no way able to consent, and Captain America was portrayed as a MAGA supporter, it would be okay, because it's up to the parents to tell them right from wrong, correct?



C'mon. He' a good guy. A superhero even. The Marvel and DC universe is divided into good guys and bad guys. Yeah, there's shades of grey once in a while, but the binary, good/bad dynamic is always there.






So he's not a good guy but racist cops and soldiers have "misinterpreted" him?


I'd argue that Rambo never should have been made into a Saturday morning cartoon show for kids. And not just because the cartoon was crap.
You argument about Wolverine raping girls or Cap being MAGA is a huge reach, but yeah, if that ever happened, then parents should be responsible enough to tell their children that those actions aren't right. By the way, 4 years ago, Cap was turned into a Nazi during a storyline.

As for old comics promoting stereotypes in the past, yeah that happened like almost every other media including advertising and is not something that is condoned or celebrated today. Characters from that era have been changed in modern times to eliminate those stereotypes. Those mistakes from the past have been righted. The only people who have complained about this changes have been MAGA supporters.

I still don't get your point here. You want Disney to remove a character because of what asshole who have misinterpreted it have done with the skull symbol. What those assholes do isn't Disney or Marvel's responsibility. The character is much more complex that what these simple minded assholes think about it.

Maybe you are having the argument with the wrong person here. After all, my moniker in this forum is the Red Hood, which can be considered DC's version of the Punisher. Both characters are complex and what makes them different from the rest of the heroes is that both think that the line should be crossed and bad guys should be killed for their atrocities. Not all of them, but most villains should be killed instead of jailing them since they can come back and do more damage to people. In some aspects, I'm not completely opposed to that. Clear bad guys, like terrorists, should suffer for their atrocities and be killed. For most of their stories, both Punisher and Red Hood kill people who have no redeeming qualities. The soldiers and cops who use Punisher's logo want to kill people because of their color of their skin or the ethnicity. That's where I say that these bumbling idiots don't understand these characters at all. In simple terms, Punisher and Red Hood would kill these racist assholes for their racist actions.
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Old 05-31-20, 06:38 PM
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Re: Disney's The Punisher and the Thin Blue Line Skull

Originally Posted by fujishig View Post
The character represents someone who feels like the law let him down and takes matters into his own hands by killing them. From the start this put him at odds with super heroes like Spider-man. He's not law enforcement (and in many cases is decidedly against them) so i don't see how he in particular is portraying law enforcement abuse or even toxic masculinity.
You can't see how he's an example of toxic masculinity?

Traditional stereotypes of men as socially dominant, along with related traits such as misogyny and homophobia, can be considered "toxic" due in part to their promotion of violence, including sexual assault and domestic violence. The socialization of boys in patriarchal societies often normalizes violence, such as in the saying "boys will be boys" with regard to bullying and aggression.


How The Punisher Delivered All The Action but For All The Wrong Justifications.

Essentially, he is an angry white man with a gun who murders people because he’s upset with the world. He perpetuates toxic masculinity in so many ways; his origin story is the most efficient example there is. Instead of mourning his family, Castle goes on a furious killing spree. By doing this, he becomes an example of the toxic idea of a “real man”: a man who is always strong, never emotional, and quick to react with violence.


There are also elements of fascism in the Punisher’s character. Fascism is defined as a totalitarian state which restricts liberty and debate and maintains absolute control over its people. People who stand against this state are killed without trial. Under a fascist state, there are no times of peace, there is only warfare. Castle shows this in his black and white view of the world that deals with crime and executes people mercilessly. In Castle’s view, there is a line, and if you cross it, then you die. There is no due process or reasoning. If someone does something that Castle does not agree with, then he kills them. This authoritative point of view is very toxic and it is more than likely that Castle has killed many good people that made one wrong choice.


The show even goes as far as to justify and glorify this fascist view by having multiple characters state that Castle is not so bad because the people he murders were criminals. He is even called a hero many times because of it.
There is even a scene that we find out that Castle murdered an Arab man who did nothing wrong. However, Castle simply says that he is sorry and gets off for the murder without even a being reprimanded. This man is dead but his killer gets to admit he killed him and walk free.
He's not meant to be a hero. Though I have no idea how he's portrayed now in the comics (which kids don't read anyway) and I haven't seen him in a mainstream setting in a while (has he been on any of the Disney Spider-man or Avengers cartoons?)
In the comics he goes after criminals and supervillains and he's the protagonist of his self-titled comics so yeah, he's portrayed as being on the side of the good guys, even if they disagree with him. I could imagine if he was clearly portrayed as not a good guy.

Take Travis Bickle who engages in vigilante behavior. Taxi Driver is a problematic movie IMO, but despite being played by an in-his-prime Robert De Niro, the character is supposed to be a loser, a guy who's racist, patronizes porno-theaters, tries to assassinate a politician for no particular reason, and has an unhealthy obsession with an underage prostitute. We're shown that the character and everything he's involved in is bad, even when he's supposedly doing something he claims is righteous.

This is a genre that glorifies costumed vigilantes who take the law into their own hands (though oftentime they don't kill). If you want to remove all things we consider in society to be problematic, the super hero genre is basically dead.
This is an argument I heard all the time from all sides. For example, when certain racist jokes are considered in poor taste and the comedians saying them catch backlash from the public, many people on the right seize the issue and say, Are we going to ban all jokes now? The SJWs are going to kill comedy!
Marvel banned their superhero characters from smoking. Did that mean they removed all things considered problematic from their comics?

The Punisher is not the typical costumed vigilante of traditional American superhero comics. Traditional American superheroes, especially from Marvel and DC, wear colorful costumes with masks to protect their identity, and while thy take the law into their own hands, they typically don't use guns, and tend to live by a moral code of not killing.

The Punisher on the other hand doesn't wear a mask, doesn't hide his identity, wears an outfit that looks closer to that of SWAT team, and uses guns to kill criminals. There's a reason why cops adopted that character and not Spider-man or Superman.
Old 05-31-20, 07:13 PM
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Re: Disney's The Punisher and the Thin Blue Line Skull

Originally Posted by Red Hood View Post
You argument about Wolverine raping girls or Cap being MAGA is a huge reach,
Really? But the hero committing mass murder using guns...that's okay I guess.

but yeah, if that ever happened, then parents should be responsible enough to tell their children that those actions aren't right.
That's not what I asked. I asked if it would be okay if Disney/Marvel depicted their superhero characters that way. We both know if Marvel had right-wing sympathies and was normalizing Trump/MAGA via Captain America we'd never hear the end of it from you.

By the way, 4 years ago, Cap was turned into a Nazi during a storyline.
So you're going to resort to disingenuous, bad faith arguments? You're going to cite a brief story where the hero is brainwashed into being evil?

As for old comics promoting stereotypes in the past, yeah that happened like almost every other media including advertising and is not something that is condoned or celebrated today. Characters from that era have been changed in modern times to eliminate those stereotypes. Those mistakes from the past have been righted. The only people who have complained about this changes have been MAGA supporters.
You misunderstood the point of the post. Cultshock was saying that comic books couldn't possibly have a negative influence on society. I posted examples that they have.

I still don't get your point here. You want Disney to remove a character because of what asshole who have misinterpreted it have done with the skull symbol. What those assholes do isn't Disney or Marvel's responsibility. The character is much more complex that what these simple minded assholes think about it.
If you read my many posts on it more carefully, my criticism wasn't based solely on what cops have done with the Punisher logo. I also mentioned toxic masculinity, mass shootings, and gun culture, and how a major corporation specializing in children's entertainment like Disney promotes the character.

Maybe you are having the argument with the wrong person here. After all, my moniker in this forum is the Red Hood, which can be considered DC's version of the Punisher. Both characters are complex and what makes them different from the rest of the heroes is that both think that the line should be crossed and bad guys should be killed for their atrocities. Not all of them, but most villains should be killed instead of jailing them since they can come back and do more damage to people. In some aspects, I'm not completely opposed to that.
Interesting. So are you a supporter of the death penalty in real life? Maybe gang members should be locked up for life because if they get out due to weak liberal laws they'll just resume their old habits of victimizing their communities.

If even someone with your political beliefs and morals can speak about a character like the Red Hood and Punisher in the way you have, it's easy to see why people on the other side of the political coin idolize these same characters. Don't get me wrong, I also enjoyed the Red Hood storyline, at least when it was written by Grant Morrison, and comics like The Dark Knight Returns, which was inspired by stuff like Death Wish and Dirty Harry.
It's a power fantasy that appeals to many young males. That doesn't mean that I won't criticize it though.

Clear bad guys, like terrorists, should suffer for their atrocities and be killed.
So a comic book like Frank Miller's Holy Terror is something that you might enjoy, or at the very least, agree with?

For most of their stories, both Punisher and Red Hood kill people who have no redeeming qualities. The soldiers and cops who use Punisher's logo want to kill people because of their color of their skin or the ethnicity.
Apparently the Punisher killed an innocent person of color in the Netflix series and never faced any legal repercussions for doing so. Never faced any type of consequences. Sounds a lot like some of these cops out there.

That's where I say that these bumbling idiots don't understand these characters at all. In simple terms, Punisher and Red Hood would kill these racist assholes for their racist actions.
In simple terms, if people like the Punisher and Red Hood existed in real life, they'd probably be more like these racist assholes or violent incels. Or maybe turn out like that ex-LA cop who killed four people.

Last edited by brayzie; 05-31-20 at 07:34 PM.
Old 05-31-20, 07:53 PM
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Re: Disney's The Punisher and the Thin Blue Line Skull

In Holy Terror, Frank Miller was a complete racist asshole by having his Batman-like character attack people more for their belief than for their terrorist actions. That's why DC rejected the pitch and why it was panned when Dark Horse released it.

Do I believe in the death penalty? Not the way is done right now. By this I mean, that the system has been broken and many people who have been on death row have come out of that after DNA evidence. Would I support killing someone who's 100% guilty of a crime, like child rape/kill, terrorism, mass murderers, hate murders and dictators who caused it? Yeah. Those type of people usually have no remorse and are a waste of oxygen, so if they carry the death penalty for them, then yeah, I'm all for it.

Again, I really don't understand your point here. Do you want Disney/Marvel to stop publishing/doing anything with the Punisher? Because he's not a hero like Cap or Spider-Man? As far as we have seen, Disney/Marvel has promoted the Punisher to adults, not kids, since they took over. We don't see action figures of him beside the collector's ones, he's not in the cartoons and not sure if he has re-appeared in video games since 2010. Again, Marvel/Disney can't control how people interpret their characters, but I feel that you are targeting the wrong people in this case. If Cap was MAGA and Wolverine raped kids, they wouldn't be superheroes. Simple as that. That would basically make them villains. That's why I feel like you are reaching here. That means that either Marvel has a storyline that would make some sense out of this or they would simply betray over 50 years of characterization to piss off fans.

I feel like you are looking at things in black and white terms and that's I keep telling you that as much as you think Frank Castle has been portrayed as a hero, he isn't one or hasn't been in the typical sense or way like Cap or Spider-Man are. Read the Punisher War Journal mini-series from 2012 that tackles exactly that. The Avengers go after Castle for his murders, even though as Black Widow points out, Frank killed child traffickers. According to the laws, Castle is guitly of murder, but is not a simple black and white.
Old 05-31-20, 07:55 PM
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Re: Disney's The Punisher and the Thin Blue Line Skull

Why don't you write a book. Maybe you could call it "Seduction Of The Innocent"!
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Old 05-31-20, 09:07 PM
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Re: Disney's The Punisher and the Thin Blue Line Skull

Originally Posted by Red Hood View Post
In Holy Terror, Frank Miller was a complete racist asshole by having his Batman-like character attack people more for their belief than for their terrorist actions. That's why DC rejected the pitch and why it was panned when Dark Horse released it.
Did "The Fixer" attack people merely for being Muslim in Holy Terror? I've never read it.

Do I believe in the death penalty? Not the way is done right now. By this I mean, that the system has been broken and many people who have been on death row have come out of that after DNA evidence. Would I support killing someone who's 100% guilty of a crime, like child rape/kill, terrorism, mass murderers, hate murders and dictators who caused it? Yeah. Those type of people usually have no remorse and are a waste of oxygen, so if they carry the death penalty for them, then yeah, I'm all for it.
I don't agree with the death penalty, but I see and understand you're point of view. In fact, if they restricted the death penalty to only cases where it was irrefutable evidence, no question or possibility of a wrongful execution, I'd probably be okay with that. Is there a reason that you mentioned "mass murder" and "hate murders" but not murder in general?

Again, I really don't understand your point here. Do you want Disney/Marvel to stop publishing/doing anything with the Punisher? Because he's not a hero like Cap or Spider-Man? As far as we have seen, Disney/Marvel has promoted the Punisher to adults, not kids, since they took over.
Deadpool was marketed as an R-rated film, and yet obviously the adut/kid audience market is blurred. The character is apparently so popular with kids that they released a PG-13 theatrical version of the film in time for the holidays.

As far as what I would expect Disney/Marvel to do? I'd go as far as to say they shouldn't publish the character at all, at least in light of our continuing problem with mass shootings and gun violence.

But if they were still going to use the character in their comics? Okay, but don't portray him as a hero/anti-hero. Portray him as a mentally disturbed vigilante who is wrong andface the consequences for being a mass murderer, because he's killed all these people without having to provide evidence or offer the accused the right to a fair trial. I mean, the guy's a Vietnam vet suffering from PSTD. Dude's an unreliable narrator. Who knows how many innocent people he's really killed. He's probably having flashbacks that he's killing "Charlie."

But realistically I'd settle for Disney divorcing the character from the Marvel Universe completely. Sell the character without the "Marvel" logo and brand. Publish the comic under a completely separate sub-label and have no interactions with the regular Marvel Universe. Disney did something similar when they wanted to make films for mature audiences. They had Hollywood Pictures, and Touchtone Pictures film divisions to separate certain films from the Disney brand.

We don't see action figures of him beside the collector's ones, he's not in the cartoons and not sure if he has re-appeared in video games since 2010. Again, Marvel/Disney can't control how people interpret their characters, but I feel that you are targeting the wrong people in this case.
I'm not targeting the wrong people. As I've said, I blame Sean Hannity for his decision to promote that symbol and I blame those cops for their decision to appropriate it. Just like I would blame racist skinheads for their decision to engage in racist actions. That doesn't mean I can't also criticize bands that used nazi imagery and symbolism and the society that tries to normalize it.

Now if you believe this is similar to the NRA/2A supporters where they want to point the fingers at alleviate responsibility by scapegoating something like video games, that's not the case. As I've said, I plan on making a post in the political forum later about the Thine Blue Line-type police themselves, but since I happen to know more about comic books and movies than I do about police corruption, I've been making these posts first.

If Cap was MAGA and Wolverine raped kids, they wouldn't be superheroes.
First off, I never said anything about Wolverine raping kids. You brought that up. I said if the character was portrayed as having sex with women who were intoxicated, which would be rape. And I used that specific example because at one point in time, it was normal in mainstream films for the protagonists to do that. Ex. Animal House, Sixteen Candles, and Revenge of the Nerds.

And MAGA is a natural progression of racist American "patriotic" jingoism. And it's not clearly agreed upon that it's villainous. Prior to Trump, if you were against invading a Middle Eastern country and against the of killing brown people you were accused of "not supporting the troops." You were asked "Why do you hate America?" At one point patriotic characters like Captain America and Superman were spouting racist epithets and shown fighting against the Japanese who were portrayed as subhuman monsters with claws and fangs. And yet...they were still considered "superheroes."

Simple as that. That would basically make them villains.
Exactly. Just like a person who went on a mass murdering spree, killing people he believes "deserved it" would be classified as a villain. Except in this particular case he's presented as a hero.

That's why I feel like you are reaching here. That means that either Marvel has a storyline that would make some sense out of this or they would simply betray over 50 years of characterization to piss off fans.
None of that has to do with my question. You insinuated earlier that Disney/Marvel has no social responsibility, it's solely up to the parents to teach their kids right and wrong. Now you're bring up all this other stuff to avoid answering it directly.

I feel like you are looking at things in black and white terms and that's I keep telling you that as much as you think Frank Castle has been portrayed as a hero, he isn't one or hasn't been in the typical sense or way like Cap or Spider-Man are.
The thing is that kids and young people aren't able to see it beyond "black and white." That's probably why stories and characters like that shouldn't be introduced in cartoon superhero stories for kids. The Punisher is a wish-fulfillment power fantasy. And considering how long the character has been published, and marketed, that's problematic. Even the very exploitive Death Wish film series eventually ended.

Read the Punisher War Journal mini-series from 2012 that tackles exactly that. The Avengers go after Castle for his murders, even though as Black Widow points out, Frank killed child traffickers. According to the laws, Castle is guitly of murder, but is not a simple black and white.
That reminds of Tony Montana in Scarface. Obviously the character is a piece of shit, but we're supposed to root for him anyways. I mean, he at least lives by a code of honor, right? He doesn't kill women or children. He even jeopardizes his own freedom in order to spare the life of a woman and her two little girls.

Many people found the character and his story inspirational. They even made a documentary about it.

Last edited by brayzie; 06-01-20 at 01:55 AM.
Old 06-01-20, 09:37 AM
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Re: Disney's The Punisher and the Thin Blue Line Skull

Originally Posted by ddrknghtrtns View Post
Why don't you write a book. Maybe you could call it "Seduction Of The Innocent"!
No kidding. This whole rant is just bordering on incredibly stupid.
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Old 06-01-20, 12:56 PM
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Re: Disney's The Punisher and the Thin Blue Line Skull

The fact that assholes like Chris Kyle
Kyle used the Punisher's stylized skull as the logo for his company.





How did he not sued for trademark infringement? That's a blatant appropriation of a trademark.
Old 06-01-20, 01:44 PM
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Re: Disney's The Punisher and the Thin Blue Line Skull

Originally Posted by Josh-da-man View Post
Kyle used the Punisher's stylized skull as the logo for his company.





How did he not sued for trademark infringement? That's a blatant appropriation of a trademark.
My understanding is that Marvel sent him a cease and desist to stop using it. They did so privately.
Old 06-01-20, 02:20 PM
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Re: Disney's The Punisher and the Thin Blue Line Skull

Wal-Mart was selling these bootlegs last year.



Old 06-01-20, 02:28 PM
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Re: Disney's The Punisher and the Thin Blue Line Skull

These is the reason why these assholes have misappropriated the Punisher's logo. Why hasn't Marvel/Disney gone after them? I have no clue

Why We Like the Punisher

The Punisher isn’t a super hero.

He’s a straight-up hero.

A man of flesh and blood who uses the tools he knows, the ones he trained to handle while in the Special Forces. He uses handguns, sniper rifles, knives, grenades, and even his own bare hands if he must to wreak justice on criminals.

Since Colonial times, the American military has used skull imagery to adorn their equipment, and that tradition continues today with incorporation of the Punisher skull.

Navy SEAL Team 3 sniper Chris Kyle received several awards for acts of heroism spread across for tours of the war in Iraq. He was one of many SEALS who painted the Punisher symbol on his weapon and vehicle. Chris Kyle loved the Punisher emblem so much that he used it in the logo for the company he started after he left the service.

The Punisher symbol also signifies brotherhood.



Frank Castle’s life is colored by his time in the service. His military code dictates accountability and responsibility, and that’s only the beginning of what drives him.

Guided by strength, perseverance, tenacity, and decisiveness, Castle’s dedication to freedom and justice draws parallels to many who serve in the military.

Does the Punisher drive you?

The Punisher is a Common Soldier

Castle’s ambivalent relationship with the military parallels the experience of many who have served.

On one hand Frank hates the immoral bureaucrats who send naïve soldiers into war. On the other hand Frank loves his fellow brother warriors who have helped him cope with the bitter realities of the service. The brotherhood remains as he faces the tragic realities when he returns home from service.

The Punisher logo serves as bond of brotherhood for those in service. A reminder that those who serve are not alone, that they stand beside brothers and sisters in service.

An American flag often covers the skull of The Punisher logo in the USA.
The Punisher logo is often symbolized with red or with blue. The red line signifies the thin red line of courage of firefighters and the blue line recognizes law enforcement officers.

Another meaning for the blue line on the Punisher logo is to honour those who fell in the line of duty.

But what about criticisms of the Punisher Logo?

Everyone’s Got an Opinion About the Punisher

Yes, there has been criticism about using the Punisher logo, especially for law enforcement agencies.

Police forces in New York and Kentucky put the Punisher logo on their squad cars and they’ve gotten a lot of reaction to it. The stated reason for the logo addition was to celebrate the Blue Lives Matter movement, which advocates for the safety of police.

Critics say the emblem is the logo of a criminal, a vigilante who operates outside the law. The argument is that it is not an appropriate symbol for the police to use.

Most officers disagree, however. They state that the Punisher logo serves as a warning to criminals that if they’re committing violent acts, the police are coming for them.

But despite criticism, there’s no doubt the Punisher symbol has meaning.

First and foremost, when criminals see that skull on the Punisher’s shirt, they know justice is coming. The skull elicits fear and those long, ugly teeth are likely the last thing the criminal will see, too.

Military personnel and law enforcement enjoy using the Punisher symbol for these same reasons: “Justice is coming, and it’s starting with me.

Whether you think the Punisher logo is totally badass or a totally bad idea, it’s here for the long run. Frank Castle settles wrongs. Ask any cop or service member who’s seen bad guys walk, and you can understand the Punisher’s appeal.
https://www.tacticalprosupply.com/bl...he-us-military
Old 06-01-20, 03:42 PM
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Re: Disney's The Punisher and the Thin Blue Line Skull

Originally Posted by robin2099 View Post
No kidding. This whole rant is just bordering on incredibly stupid.
Aren't you the guy that complains about feminist themes and "the liberal agenda" in comic books and superhero TV shows?

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Old 06-01-20, 03:48 PM
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Re: Disney's The Punisher and the Thin Blue Line Skull

Originally Posted by Red Hood View Post
These is the reason why these assholes have misappropriated the Punisher's logo. Why hasn't Marvel/Disney gone after them? I have no clue
I saw that. It's crazy that a grown man wrote that.

I'm not up to speed on the whole Chris Kyle "American Sniper" story. So at one point he was using the logo as well for commercial purposes?

Maybe Disney thinks it’s bad optics. If they go after Thin Blue Line, it makes them look like they're anti-police maybe. Especially considering what the Thin Blue Line supposedly represents (fallen police officers). Why you'd use the Punisher skull to to represent respect for officers who died in the line of duty, I don't know. Seems like a ribbon of some kind would be more appropriate, or something less associated with violence?

Oh, unless you're really using it to send a message that you're going to avenge their deaths, by any means necessary. Just like Frank Castle! 'Cause he's a real man! Due process...fuck all that.

Originally Posted by Josh-da-man View Post
Kyle used the Punisher's stylized skull as the logo for his company.

How did he not sued for trademark infringement? That's a blatant appropriation of a trademark.
That doesn't seem like something an American Hero should be promoting. You serve your country because that was your job. What's up with this romanticization of being a "bad ass"? These people want to live out their own "thug life" fantasies.

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Old 06-01-20, 10:30 PM
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Re: Disney's The Punisher and the Thin Blue Line Skull

Originally Posted by brayzie View Post
Aren't you the guy that complains about feminist themes and "the liberal agenda" in comic books and superhero TV shows?
Hey! He has a cousin who is a police officer in a city of at last 100,000 people!
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Old 06-02-20, 12:00 PM
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Re: Disney's The Punisher and the Thin Blue Line Skull

Hey, thanks for using my quote from another thread and taking it out of context to help with your rant.

Media is not the cause for all society's ills, it reflects what already exists. Hard to understand, I know. People have been pointing their fingers at media as the cause of society's problems for decades, it's an old, tired argument. If you want to be the Fredrick Wertham of this era and write your "Seduction of the Innocent" go for it. Your arguments are as flawed as Wertham's were.
Old 06-02-20, 04:00 PM
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Re: Disney's The Punisher and the Thin Blue Line Skull

Originally Posted by cultshock View Post
Hey, thanks for using my quote from another thread and taking it out of context to help with your rant.
How did I take your quote out of context? I even put a link to the initial discussion in the first post for background. The only thing I didn’t include was your last line, which still didn’t misrepresent your post, since you’re the one that brought up Elvis, rock and roll, video games, etc.

Media is not the cause for all society's ills, it reflects what already exists.
For someone that complains about being taken out of context you like to insinuate I said things that I didn’t. I never said “media is the cause for all society’s ills.” What I did say was that entertainment can shape and reinforce negative attitudes and beliefs, and even give a sense of legitimacy to it.

Hard to understand, I know. People have been pointing their fingers at media as the cause of society's problems for decades, it's an old, tired argument.
I provided examples of other entertainment mediums promoting and mainstreaming things such as racism, Nazism/white supremacy, sexism and rape culture.

And yet you didn’t bother to address them. I guess it’s okay for bands to promote Nazism using your logic? That it has no effect on the public to be wearing swastikas in public and in promotional photos? Depicting non-whites in entertainment as subhuman caricatures has no effect on society? Or is it only depictions of violence that are okay? All other subjects are okay to criticize?

If you want to be the Fredrick Wertham of this era and write your "Seduction of the Innocent" go for it.
So you’re saying anyone critical of certain elements in entertainment is a Frederick Wertham? I guess it was okay for Marvel and DC to portray Asians and black folks that way? Being critical of that is flawed somehow?

Your arguments are as flawed as Wertham's were.
The thing is you’re not making any counter arguments. I provided examples, and also cited articles from mainstream news organizations. What are you doing? Saying I’m acting like Frederick Wertham?

I guess you can’t argue or defend your point of view. This is a discussion forum but some people don’t want to discuss things.
Old 06-02-20, 11:26 PM
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Re: Disney's The Punisher and the Thin Blue Line Skull

I know bleedingcool is not the most reliable, but I believe it (wearing of the pin) might be related to this:

https://bleedingcool.com/comics/rece...n-recruitment/

https://themilsource.com/2020/04/18/...-the-punisher/
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