fujishig

But after the canceling of that series, we got the excellent re-invisioning by Goyer/Robinson/Johns, with all the new legacy heroes right? This is what kinda confuses me about the whole thing, and makes me think that this was a mandate from higher up... Johns seems to love his legacy heroes. He may have too much affection for the heroes of his youth (Barry and Hal, for example) but he loves intertwining mythologies and drawing on the past; it's what made me a fan of his work in the first place. Now most of that is being thrown out the window to get younger, more diverse heroes.

Also finally read Flashpoint 1, and the fact the Andy Kubert art reminded me of the fact that he drew the lead in and parts of AoA at Marvel. I hadn't collected a comic that he did art in in some time...

PhantomStranger

Canceling the JSA strongly implies some sort of corporate mandate from above for the entire DC line to get younger. There is no way Johns, who is a big fan of DC history, would introduce that idea or not stop it if he could. This smacks of demographic re-engineering by a corporate executive who said do this or else to DC.

Boba Fett

David Walker nicely tackles an issue with DC that in a roundabout way says volumes as to why I don't care about their pandering comics nor their gimmicky reboot.

http://dariuslogan.com/?p=623#more-623

kgrogers1979

The thing that really peeves me about Batwing's obvious attempt at racial diversity is that we already had Cassandra Cain who was half-Asian. Why not just bring her back instead of creating Batwing. But no they have to put Barbara back as Batgirl, which nobody wants, instead of bringing Cassandra back, which is what everyone actually wants.

stingermck

I've always wanted Barbara back. I will miss Steph, and Cassie is my least favorite. Just saying.

BTW full solicits are up:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=32768

brayzie

Because Batwing was created by Morrison, a very popular writer, that will be enough to sustain good sales for this new character. I guess the other Batgirls neve caught on.

fujishig

I may just be completely ignorant, but Batwing seems like a title that won't last a year, especially with 52 #1s coming out.

The last Batgirl series was doing ok with Steph, overcoming the initial backlash that they ruined Cassandra with the OYL story and replaced her with a white, blond haired girl (though I was always a Spoiler fan anyway). The problem is that Barbara is THE Batgirl from the old Batman TV show and BTAS (and Brave and the Bold too). kgrogers1979's comment about what everybody wants only holds true for what the majority of comic fans want: they generally like Oracle, and while initially there were many, many fans who wanted Batgirl back, they got used to Oracle and her new role. Babs being Batgirl is what non-comic fans expect, I guess. This may also be the reason why Barry Allen came back when nobody was clamoring for him over Wally (besides Johns).

Like I said before, the only possible saving grace for the Batgirl book from a comic fan perspective is that Simone is writing it, and she's a gigantic fan of Barbara and the definitive Oracle writer.

Brian Hibbs' Tilting at Windmills column is up, to give a retailer's perspective:
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=32716

So what's the buzz at the local comic shop (from owners and other collectors)? Message boards seem split, which makes me think that this might actually work, because I thought for sure everyone would hate, say, Teen Titans. I'm still in Wait-for-the-Trade mode, or perhaps Wait-for-the-99-cents-digital-sale mode, except for Legion (so I guess I'm still a sucker).

sinned

That's because Marvel had already beaten them to the punch (Avenging Spider-Man).

Navinabob

I suspect (half-jokingly) they'll make the character Chole from Smallville fame Oracle as that was basically who they made her into... all they need is a way to get her in a chair.

Preterite

The link was my first exposure to that character, but I'm pretty sure Morrison is riffing on an old Batman tale where three kids each describe what they think the batman is like.

[googles] Yep!


This is why I think the half-ass reboot after the first Crisis failed. DC wants to reset everything - except the history of their most popular characters. Start with a clean slate or don't bother, says I.

Timber

Wow, shows how much I keep up with comics these days.

Timber

Exactly. It's going to be fragmented.

I'm going to show my age but I think New Universe was the perfect way to start a universe from scratch but they only had to maintain 6 or so books not 52. I simply don't think it can be done on the scale that DC is trying to do it on without having a reason for all 52 (or however many start in today's time) different stories starting at the same time. Trying to rewrite the past like Crisis and Zero Hour are simply to confusing and complex to work for any period of time.

madcougar

Timber, I too remember the New Universe. DC tried something like this in the early 90s as I recall with their Impact line and of course Milestone.

As much as people bitch and moan about this (and I'm not saying DC is doing everything right - far from it), but at some point you have to figure that a reboot becomes a necessity. I look at Marvel and wonder at what point is Frank Castle as the Punisher ridiculous. If Castle served in the closing days of Vietnam as an 18 year old, that makes him 55. That's pretty much impossible as he was introduced in the Marvel universe in 1974. Instead of rebooting his history, apparently he's some sort of zombie now. That's not much better than anything DC is doing me thinks.

kgrogers1979

Flash Thompson is a Vietnam vet too, and that is even more ridiculous.

Wolf359

This actually has me kind of excited. I think I'll give comics a try for the first time in 15 years. Probably try out at least ten of those titles.

Not going to mess with actual books though, digital for me. Anyone recommend a cheap Android tablet that you can read comics on?

Preterite

I would actually be enthused about a complete reboot, a clean slate like was done in the 1950's. Shuffle all of the current characters and all of the history off to Earth-Z2@ or whatever and start fresh. The Big 3 (or 5) stay pretty much the same but everyone else is remade. Same names, new identities and concepts.

But that's not what the typical comic fan wants. To him, continuity is king. So I believe that DC will try to reboot some aspects of their universe and keep others. We won't get Day 1 Year 1 of a brand new, exciting DCU. We'll get the same kind of convoluted mess that was the post-Crisis era. And we all know how that turned out - almost everything that was wiped away with the "reboots" were eventually brought back as if they had never gone away.

Anyhoo, I think all this hubbub is mostly over nothing. I think we will learn in a year or two that the "reboot" DCU is one of the 52 alternate and the "real" DCU will be brought back - with a few reboot changes that were deemed popular.

Timber

That's what I would like to see but I was never a fan of the DCU so I don't have any ties to these characters. Take what works and rewrite it for 2011 and throw out what doesn't but start with a fresh uncluttered universe.

PhantomStranger

That is the likely outcome. If DC is really committed, maybe the reboot lasts a little longer than a year. But most of the new books and concepts will eventually get tossed or ignored, keeping the select few that succeed. I do think things like Barbara Gordon returning as Batgirl will be more permanent, to bolster synergy with the multimedia platforms. Apparently DC is going to get an aggressive mainstream advertising push, including an entire block of shows on Cartoon Network later in the year.

kgrogers1979

There's no reason they can't use Barbara as Oracle in other media. Barbara is Oracle in the Arkham Asylum video game and nobody complained.

stingermck

Babs as Batgirl just goes back to the classic interpretation the public knows.

"Excuse me random person, who is Batgirl?:"

A. The daughter of Commissioner Gordon
B. The daughter of David Cain and Lady Shiva
C. The daughter of the Cluemaster, formerly Spoiler, formerly Robin, formerly dead.

I also agree in the end, this will be a big test to see what works and what doesnt, then roll it all back together in the proper universe.

kgrogers1979

The thing that peeves me most about comics is that things rarely ever permanently change. Going back to Babs as Batgirl just to please people who only know that version of Batgirl is absolutely absurd. With a little wiki reading, anyone can get caught up easily on Batgirl's history. It is FAR easier to catch up on past history now in the internet era than it was in previous decades before the internet.

Batman: The Animated Series in the 90s started with Dick as Robin, but eventually he graduated to Nightwing, and Tim became Robin. If the general public can handle that happening in B:TAS, then they can handle Babs graduating to Oracle and someone else taking the Batgirl mantle.

Heck, the general public loved Under the Red Hood, when they had never even heard of Jason Todd before that movie. If the public can love Under the Red Hood with no previous knowledge of Jason, then there is no reason that they won't also love Cassandra or Stephanie.

Travis McClain

What I find most curious about the "Barbara Gordon is the public's Batgirl" argument is that after years of John Stewart being "the public's" Green Lantern on Justice League, they went with Hal Jordan for this year's Green Lantern movie. I suspect Batgirl (regardless of alter ego) is more familiar to many than GL (regardless of alter ego). The move to Hal could be taken as particularly bothersome, because it suggests 1) John was chosen exclusively to be a token gesture of racial diversity on the TV show and 2) Hollywood still doesn't believe it can sell a movie without a white guy in the lead.

Now, I say all this as a Hal Jordan fan (though, personally, I dig Kyle Rayner a shade more). But I couldn't help thinking about all this ever since I first heard about production of this movie, only at the time I was laughing about how insecure DC/Warner have been about whether or not "the public" knows who the hell Nightwing is. Personally, I think they need to be more responsible about these kinds of identity issues in the first place, but when they do make these kinds of changes they need to have the conviction to stand by them. Someone at DC needs to be willing to say, "This is what we've done and this needs to be reflected on screen."

I grant, you, of course, that there's more flexibility with Green Lantern, as we've had several over the years and I honestly do think that Hal was the right choice for the movie. Once Ryan Reynolds prices himself out of the franchise (which, as a longtime GL fan, I hope this becomes), I'd like to see John Stewart on the big screen, though.

One other remark: I read one of the recent interviews someone posted and it really came across that DC's editorial leadership is really proud of this massive undertaking, primarily because it's massive. It affects lots of things and it involves the publication of a ton of comic books. This obsession with large-scale stories, in my personal view honed over a life of reading comics, is precisely the very problem with comic book storytelling and until someone takes the reins who doesn't subscribe to the "bigger is better" doctrine, and until publishers re-embrace the mass market, they can continue to watch their sales figures decline. This may provide a brief bump, but outside of dedicated fans who already flock to the Internet and their LCS's (or order their comics online), who the hell even knows about all this?

boredsilly

And for all of the grumpiness you see on online forums, you're the reason why DC is doing this. The potential audience of comics readers (be they totally new readers or lapsed comic fans) is worth risking losing the current audience they do have. Flashpoint 1 only sold 90k issues. That is DC's big event book, and for them to only be able to sell 90k shows that they needed to do something drastic, because as things stand now, there won't be a comics industry in 10 years if they just keep on the current path.

One thing I think hurts the potential of digital sales is that the tablet is taking off, but it isn't quite ubiquitous yet -- like mp3 players or cell phones are. It's certainly going to get there, and soon, but it's not there yet. I know you can read comics on the iphone and ipod, but that doesn't do the material any favors -- comics are made for tablets. When there are viable tablet options for $200, then shit will get real. $100? Then we start to take that leap towards becoming a true paperless society.

boredsilly

I think studio's place too much importance on what the public knows, because Iron Man pretty much debunked that whole line of thinking, since very few people probably knew he existed before the movie came out.

Travis McClain

Marvel is far more confident and forward-thinking when it comes to movies. For God's sake, Daredevil got a movie before Green Lantern! Marvel's philosophy seems to be, "We've made a business out of these characters and their stories and we believe they'll all be a hit as movies." DC's philosophy seems to be, "Movies? Um, yeah, let me look around and see what we've got that might work..." It's pathetic, and what was once a healthy rivalry is now a lopsided joke. Take away Bruce Timm and Batman and I don't think anyone gives a damn about DC outside of longtime readers, and this apparently extends to DC itself!