Question or two about Batman
 

I've read various places that Bruce Wayne is taking Batman "corporate" ie, establishing Batman/men in various cities around the world. True? If so, this seems a mindbogglingly stupid idea and great way to ruin a character whose whole existence is based around his being a myth. Is this just Morrison trying to "Vertigo" up Batman and the entire Batman mythos?

Re: Question or two about Batman
 

I don't think Batman has been a myth in the DC universe for a long time. He's a member of the Justice League so the whole world know about him.

I'm sure once the Batman Inc story is over, they'll retcon it somehow to go back to normal.

Re: Question or two about Batman
 

His whole existence is not based around his being a myth... though that was one of the concepts that was introduced at one time by a writer, much like this concept was introduced. I always thought that was a little ridiculous, considering he had a brightly dressed kid sidekick and fought colorful villains and was part of the Justice League (and the UN sanctioned Justice League International)

I'm not a huge fan of this concept either, but I wouldn't get all worked up about him not being a myth anymore.

Re: Question or two about Batman
 

It was a pretty well established fact in while I was reading comics in the 80s and 90s that Batman was indeed an urban legend - like the boogy man. The concept behind batman has always been that the criminal element is a superstitious and cowardly lot. Can't imagine a "dude" in a cape being as scary as a shadow that may or may not exsist.

Having abandoned floopys a few years ago, I've recently purchased a few TPB to fill that niche. I was pretty surprised at the fact that Richard Grayson had "reinvented" Batman as a smiling caped crusader who made himself even more visible to the world.

Re: Question or two about Batman
 

My point was that the urban legend thing was a new concept introduced in the 80s/90s, just like this Batman Incorporated is a new concept introduced now. People nitpicked the first idea (the primary reason being that he was in the Justice League! and he had a brightly-garbed kid sidekick/decoy who started the Teen Titans.), just as they do this idea, and no man's land, and Azbats, and yellow-bat Batman, etc. but in a year or so some other writer will come along and come up with something else to upset "fans."

Superman just went through a year or two's worth of stories about "New Krypton" that was promptly thrown in the garbage once JMS came on board.

Look at the bright side, at least you're not a Wonder Woman fan.

Re: Question or two about Batman
 

My point was that the urban legend thing was a new concept introduced in the 80s/90s, just like this Batman Incorporated is a new concept introduced now. People nitpicked the first idea (the primary reason being that he was in the Justice League! and he had a brightly-garbed kid sidekick/decoy who started the Teen Titans.), just as they do this idea, and no man's land, and Azbats, and yellow-bat Batman, etc. but in a year or so some other writer will come along and come up with something else to upset "fans."

Superman just went through a year or two's worth of stories about "New Krypton" that was promptly thrown in the garbage once JMS came on board.

Look at the bright side, at least you're not a Wonder Woman fan.

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And you're probably right. As I said, I began reading comics in the 80s so I have very little point of reference before then. The thing I can argue is that this "phase" of his history lasted more than just a few writers. It was this way for at least 10 years and probably more.

Re: Question or two about Batman
 

I started reading Batman in the late 80s and never remembered him being considered as an urban legend until the 90s when ZERO HOUR happened.

I really doesn't make much sense either. The police using the Bat-Signal, the existance of even more colorful and amazing superheroes in every other city, the Justice League of AMERICA having a satellite near the moon, Gotham itself having criminals like Clayface, The Joker, Killer Croc...but a man fighting crime in a costume and cape is too fantastic for Gotham citizens to believe.

BATMAN INC doesn't interest me, but it has to be better than Knightfall.

Re: Question or two about Batman
 

The "Batman-as-an-urban-legend" thing is mostly limited to the movies; as stated above it would be kind of difficult to the Batman of the DCU to try to present himself as an urban legend considering his high profile in that universe.

The only time in recent memory that I can think where they might have played such an angle would have been in the early issues of the "Legends of the Dark Knight" series that launched in 1989 that covered Batman's early days in the "Year One" milieu.

Re: Question or two about Batman
 

Not gonna dig through 30 long boxes of comics to settle a nerd pissing contest, but I know for a fact that from about 1988 until maybe the early part of this century, Batman was considered an urban legend in the DC universe. In fact I even recall a very early issue of JLA (from early 2000s) where a newscaster discusses the lineup of the JLA and says something "mysterious vigilante from Gotham" being part of the ranks.

Understand that I collected every single Batman comic book from 1988 to 2008. Every one.

Re: Question or two about Batman
 

I don't know how well he was considered an urban legend before the early 90s. In 1989's YEAR 3 storyline, Batman and Robin are shown on tv fighting criminals. In fact, that's part of the Tim Drake Robin origin, is that he sees Batman and Robin on television and is able to deduce their identities from the footage.

I haven't read all the Batman comics but I was reading from 89 and up here and there, and I never remember the urban legend thing. There's a storyline in the 90s called "Dark Genesis" where the public thinks that Batman is responsible for a series of killings and want him arrested.

Re: Question or two about Batman
 

You know for a fact? :lol:

Sorry dude, but you remember incorrectly. The whole "Batman is an urban legend" thing was from Zero Hour in 1994.

The DC wiki confirms it.

http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Zero_Hour

I own practically every Post-Crisis Batman title as well, and there is no way in heck that Batman was considered an urban legend in the 80s or even early 90s. How many hundreds, possibly thousands, of people saw Bane through Batman's broken body off the rooftop?

Re: Question or two about Batman
 

DC does so many Crisis and Zero Hour-type continuity reboots that it's impossible and pointless to try to make any sense of the DCU. Not to mention that DC has been putting out about fifty Batman comic books a month that cover points all over his crime-fighting career.

How many first meetings has Batman had with the Joker?

It's like Marvel portraying Wolverine as a loner who's constantly showing up in everyone else's books and is on about eight different superhero teams at the same time.

Re: Question or two about Batman
 

Whatever nerdlinger! Like I said, not digging through thousands of books to make my point. I'm not saying that NO ONE has EVER seen Batman, but that he's like Big Foot - people CLAIM to have seen him but who knows.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go make love to a beautiful woman. Something you probably don't know anything about! So there!

Re: Question or two about Batman
 

The urban legend thing was an editorial edict started by Denny O'Neil, who was in charge of the bat books at the time, because he wanted to take advantage of the opportunity alotted by DC's big 1994 event, ZERO HOUR to change things.

If he was supposed to be an urban legend, the Batman editors wouldn't have had storylines in the late 80s and early 90s where Batman is shown on television.

Or where the citizens meet him and are not shocked by the fact that he's real. There's all kinds of stories where he pops up and the people say "oh thank goodness batman your here!"

Re: Question or two about Batman
 

It's my understanding that the idea of Bats going global is meant to accomplish two things. Firstly, it puts Batman on a much larger scale than Gotham City. I personally favor the Batman stories in which he's overwhelmed in his home city but let's face it: once you accept him as part of the Justice League and see him operate on other planets, it seems rather small potatoes for a hero of his talents and caliber to remain contained in that one city. The other thing is, it's an indication of the Bat-police shown in Kingdom Come. The idea seems to be showing how the Batman we know became the Batman of that series, and this was the first step. I'd be lying if I said it made me personally want to read, but I can appreciate the intent.

Also, I'd like to comment on the "Urban Legend" side topic. I don't remember anyone articulating it as official storytelling policy at the time, but I had a very strong sense reading early issues of Legends of the Dark Knight that the people of Gotham were largely oblivious to Batman. In point of fact, I distinctly recall a letters column in one issue articulating that very point though I can't say now which issue of which title or when it was published. I am, however, entirely confident it was prior to "Zero Hour" because I quit reading most comic books after that mini-series. (It was intended as a jumping-on point, and I used it to jump off.)

Re: Question or two about Batman
 

I think the urban legend has more to do with him having little public presence. In JLA they often had him in the background and listed as being an "unofficial" member. Many of the thugs are often talking about his supernatural powers like being inhuman, unable to stop with bullets or punches, flight, leaping or living inside of shadows... I recall eye-witnesses getting Manbat confused with Batman because a lot of people think Batman is a giant half-bat creature already.

I don't think it's about "if he exists" but it is more like "what is he?" Most of the core JLA don't have secret identities (Superman, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter) so him being reclusive adds mystery.

Also, each writer will have his own take on Batman. Previous stories may have little or no influence on what the current writer wants to do. Marvel is generally far more strict on continuity then DC is in my opinion.

Re: Question or two about Batman
 

How to be the coolest kid on the internet in three easy steps:

1. Find an internet message board where Batman is being discussed and weigh in on the conversation.
2. When someone corrects your statement, get angry and point to your collection of 20 years of Batman comics as proof that you're right.
3. When people still insist that you're wrong, call them all a bunch of nerds and brag about how, unlike them, you're going to have sex with a real live woman!

If you follow these steps, everyone on the internet will be totally impressed with you, not to mention jealous over the fact that they are all nerds and you get to have real sex with a real woman who is totally not made up.

Re: Question or two about Batman
 

Dude... calm down! I was joking! Anyone with as many comic books as me knows that calling another comic book collector a "nerd" is ridiculous. Hell, "nerdlinger" is a word that Homer Simpson says! I thougth surely adding that last jab about having sex with a woman would be enough to let everyone in on the joke.

You remember things your way, I remember them my way. No big deal. The only reason I rememember that JLA book was because it was so poorly written. I remember thinking "They sure are going out of their way to explain that Batman is an urban legend."

At the end of the day We've both obviously spent thousands of dollars on nonsense, I'm sure we've both had sex with women, and we both get on DVDTalk from work. Cool?

But I'm right...

Re: Question or two about Batman
 

You kind of make my point here. If there was all this video of the guy everywhere, why would people be shocked to see him and find out his real?

Perhaps DC was inconsistent with the concept of him being an urban legend.

Re: Question or two about Batman
 

I think you read his quote wrong as it clearly states that people are NOT surprised to find out he is real and recognize him by sight and name him correctly.

Though yes... inconsistent is probably right.

There is a really nice article on Daredevil I just read that explores his early character starting point and discuses the effect on how multiple writers can evolves a character. This thread made me think of it.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=30499

Re: Question or two about Batman
 

I've only read part of the article so far, but thanks for the link! I always thought it was odd just how many times Daredevil's identity is compromised in the worst possible ways, over and over and over again, and how tragic his life was overall.

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Yeah... I'm sure your job interview to get that writing gig is "In two hundred words, describe how you plan on punching this character in the nuts."

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That explains why Affleck got that role...

Re: Question or two about Batman
 

Besides the effects of ZERO HOUR, Legends of the Dark Knight was another Batman title, with the angle being that the stories would take place during Batman's first year of crime fighting, so that's probably why he was portrayed as being a myth to the citizens of Gotham.

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OK, OK! I get it god damnit! Everyone knows who Batman is! Hell Alicia Silverstone knows! The guy is as famous as Bono! Happy!?

Re: Question or two about Batman
 

Yikes. You stated something was a fact. Evidence contradicted your statement.

Personal recollection is faulty by its very nature. Nobody accused you of trying to deceive anyone; we all just carry a different picture of the same fictional character that has happens to have many different contradictions (Batman carried a gun for years!).

No need to get defensive... a simple "thanks guys, I had figured that the legend reputation was universal. I guess I was wrong" would worked too.

Re: Question or two about Batman
 

No worries. Your post was obviously written in a tongue-in-cheek way that didn't come across to me. I just thought it was funny how seriously you were taking it -- only it turns out you weren't taking it that seriously at all, so that show's what I know. :lol:

But you're wrong about the Urban Legend thing -- it was definitely an outcome of Zero Hour, which came out in 1994.

http://forums.comicbookresources.com...d.php?t=114748
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Zero_Hour
http://batman.wikia.com/wiki/Zero_Hour
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Batman

Re: Question or two about Batman
 

This "urban myth" thing has been nagging at me, so I pulled out my Legends of the Dark Knight issues. I skipped the issues that I've bought recently, as I couldn't possibly have read anything in those. I came upon the following in issue #46 (June 1993):

"As the current storyline attests, Lee, Batman was hardly 'an idol American youth' during the start of his career. Rather, he was routinely viewed with suspicion by police and public alike. And even now, with years of crime-fighting and good deeds behind him, Batman is probably feared more than revered by most Gothamites."

--Bill Kaplan, assistant editor

Of course, the nature of "suspicion" is open to interpretation. Was it meant that people were unconvinced of his motives, or his existence? Somewhere, I'm certain there was a more specific statement made by a Bat-editor on the topic of whether Gothamites even believed there was a Batman, and if I turn it up I'll be sure to share it.

Also, I was reminded how I used to read with awe the frequent letters written by Uncle Elvis that found their way into print. I always marveled at the regularity with which his letters saw publication. It reached the point where I began to consider him something of an unannounced guest star. I always imagined him living in a house that resembled my local comic book shop, with rows of longboxes everywhere you'd look.

Re: Question or two about Batman
 

It's my way. I always forget that sarcasm, exaggeration and subtlety don't come across on the fancy internet. Take Navinabob’s response to my “rant.” No seriously, take it.


My actual thought process to the response he’s talking about was: “Well, I give up. I ‘spose that 20 years of reading Batman may have become one giant mess in my head. I give up.”

So I post:

Now, I figure that mentioning that Alicia Silverstone knows who Batman is will 1. Get a laugh as I’m referencing the awful Batman & Robin movie where Alicia’s character is ridiculously made a member of the “Bat Team” almost immediately. 2. Show my nerd brothers that I too am a proud nerd, and 3. Mock some real crazy rants I’ve read on these message boards. Never in my mind do I think someone will take this seriously.

Very calmly… I’ve been reading comic books, including most Batman books, mini series, one shots, Elseworlds, tie ins, cross overs, team ups, wrap ups, veggie wraps, and adaptations for 20 years. It is quite possible, although highly unlikely, that these literally thousands of stories – in addition to six major motion pictures, hundreds of cartoons, dozens of fan-created shorts and my own bizarre fantasies, have confused me.

Although I doubt it…

Re: Question or two about Batman
 

Fantastic. Now cite your source. Please fill us on on any Batman stories from any of these books where the topic of him being an urban legend was clearly illustrated.

For clarification we'll toss out Elseworlds style books, cartoons and movies. We'll also toss out Legend of the Dark Knight because we all seem to agree that in that one series that was a common theme and any book that tells a "year one" type of tale because until he shows up at that crime lord dinner party and tells them that their days are numbered (look, other people have read Batman too!) he was an urban legend.

No need to recite issue numbers, book and plot-line would be great. I understand it'd only be anecdotal evidence, but I'd like at least some evidence on your side of the debate.

Re: Question or two about Batman
 

No, the editors at the time stated that the stories in LotDK took place "during Bruce Wayne's early years as batman, not just during his first year.
'Course that canard got thown out the window really quickly as did the format of having a single storyline arc over 5 or so issues.

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What should kill this debate is Vicki Vale. All her reports on Batman from the Gotham Gazette were not treated like weekly world news in the many plot-lines she was in and the newspaper itself is considered the main paper in Gotham. I can't recall any of her stories being "Does Batman exist?" but instead were usually "Who is Batman?" and ""What is his secret identity?" type of articles.

Criminals all seem to know who he is. Kids do as well as I recall kids playing with batman toys. Police know him (bat signal, manhunts, arrest warrants)... the general public seems to recognize him.

You have to have read the "War Crimes" arc (Batman #643-644, Detective Comics #809-810) where the friggin' city declares war on Batman and the public is quoted in demanding that the city gets rid of Batman?

The debate is as silly as saying Spider-Man is a urban legend in the marvel universe and ignoring every plot line that involves JJJ and the Daily Bugle.

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I'm kinda surprised Denny O'Neil would want to treat Batman as an urban legend considering all the stories he's written for the character and his familiarity with the title. I know it's just a comic, but even by comic book story standards it's not very plausible.

Anyways, LOTDK was a great series. The highlights for me were Matt Wagner's FACES storyline and then a storyline called BLADES.

Batman Black & White was also awesome.

Re: Question or two about Batman
 

Ok, next nerd debate: does Superman really just vibrate his head really fast to conceal his identity (at all times, even when he's unconscious) or are the people around him really dumb enough to be fooled by a pair of glasses and a slouch?

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Growing up I always wondered just how anyone at the Daily Planet could be competent at their jobs and not piece this together. In today's news media climate, though, I think it's perfectly plausible that prominent journalists would be so caught up in their sound and fury agendas that they'd be entirely oblivious to such things. I mean, if it turned out that Bill O'Reilly was Superman, do you really think Glenn Beck would have the vaguest idea?

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Naw, it's like Pleasantville. They just don't notice stuff like that.

But if I had to choose, they're just too dumb. Explaining things that don't need to be explained only makes things worse.

Like George Perez explaining Wonder Woman's star spangled costume.

I did like when Lois figured out Clark was really Superman and says, "You just put on a pair of glasses and that's it? What, are we all just super-stupid?"

And Superman responds, "I've wondered that myself over the years."

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Personally, I think that because Superman does not wear a mask, no one automatically assumes he is trying to hide anything and is not trying to hide his secret identity or whatever. So people are not going around all the time wondering "who is Superman?" like they might wonder "who is Batman?" So if you aren't really trying to discover who Superman is, it is easy to overlook Clark's similarity to him, especially in a city of millions of people where it is easy to overlook people.

However, I always did figure that a few people closest to Clark like Perry White probably do know Clark is Superman but have too much respect for him to let it be known.

Plus another thing, if you are a "god" like Superman, would you spend your free time pretending to be a feeble mortal human? A lot of people probably think like this, and aren't looking for Superman disguised as a human. Actually, Lex Luthor did this exact thing early in John Byrne's run. In Superman Vol.2 #2, Lex built a supercomputer that calculated that Superman is Clark Kent. Lex dismissed it saying that a "god" like Superman would never pretend to be a mere mortal.

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I live in Houston and the city is pretty much shut down because of ice on all major roads. I sat down to read some of the TPB and HC that have started to pile up and within minutes I found this in Batman: Bat and the Beast (Batman Confidential #31).

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j3...iega/photo.jpg

I guess that based on your "rules" this doesn't count since Batman Confidential is much like LODK.

AGAIN, I don't have a fancy Wiki page that some guy put together in his mother's basement with the "official" cannon of Batman memorized like you apparently do, but I do know that I have more than a few memories in my head like the panel above, where somebody basically states "Batman? I thought he was an urban legend." Forgive me for having 20 years of Batman lore get confused in my 40-year-old mind.

Please forgive me.

Re: Question or two about Batman
 

Thanks for the update. I don't doubt your sincerity or your judgment of key instances that can be cherry picked to prove a point. I didn't feel my "rules" were unfair. It'd just be ridiculous to say that Gwen Stacey was still alive and show issues before she died as "proof"... it'd be just intellectually dishonest.

Personally, I'd love you to be correct. I think Batman was far too over-exposed and I liked him much better in the some of the movie versions and year-one style issues where he was mostly shadow. But what we want the truth to be should never be confused with what the truth actually is.

For example, you read through several Batman TPB and HCs recently. Are you suggesting that in none of those books it was suggested that Batman wasn't an urban legend? He didn't once rescue someone, wasn't seen in daylight, wasn't named by a criminal, wasn't named by a police officer? In all the books you read everyone reacted to him with the same utter shock one would expect to find if the came across Bigfoot in the woods?

I also noticed, its something I do, that the one clip you showed it appears to some a foreigner (Japanese) talking on the phone to someone that appears also to be not of this country. I imagine that in the DC universe, Batman would seem like an urban legend in Japan. Especially at the time-frame of Bats early career (where that series takes place).