madcougar

OK, OK! I get it god damnit! Everyone knows who Batman is! Hell Alicia Silverstone knows! The guy is as famous as Bono! Happy!?

Navinabob

Yikes. You stated something was a fact. Evidence contradicted your statement.

Personal recollection is faulty by its very nature. Nobody accused you of trying to deceive anyone; we all just carry a different picture of the same fictional character that has happens to have many different contradictions (Batman carried a gun for years!).

No need to get defensive... a simple "thanks guys, I had figured that the legend reputation was universal. I guess I was wrong" would worked too.

JasonF

No worries. Your post was obviously written in a tongue-in-cheek way that didn't come across to me. I just thought it was funny how seriously you were taking it -- only it turns out you weren't taking it that seriously at all, so that show's what I know.

But you're wrong about the Urban Legend thing -- it was definitely an outcome of Zero Hour, which came out in 1994.

http://forums.comicbookresources.com...d.php?t=114748
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Zero_Hour
http://batman.wikia.com/wiki/Zero_Hour
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Batman

Travis McClain

This "urban myth" thing has been nagging at me, so I pulled out my Legends of the Dark Knight issues. I skipped the issues that I've bought recently, as I couldn't possibly have read anything in those. I came upon the following in issue #46 (June 1993):

"As the current storyline attests, Lee, Batman was hardly 'an idol American youth' during the start of his career. Rather, he was routinely viewed with suspicion by police and public alike. And even now, with years of crime-fighting and good deeds behind him, Batman is probably feared more than revered by most Gothamites."

--Bill Kaplan, assistant editor

Of course, the nature of "suspicion" is open to interpretation. Was it meant that people were unconvinced of his motives, or his existence? Somewhere, I'm certain there was a more specific statement made by a Bat-editor on the topic of whether Gothamites even believed there was a Batman, and if I turn it up I'll be sure to share it.

Also, I was reminded how I used to read with awe the frequent letters written by Uncle Elvis that found their way into print. I always marveled at the regularity with which his letters saw publication. It reached the point where I began to consider him something of an unannounced guest star. I always imagined him living in a house that resembled my local comic book shop, with rows of longboxes everywhere you'd look.

madcougar

It's my way. I always forget that sarcasm, exaggeration and subtlety don't come across on the fancy internet. Take Navinabob’s response to my “rant.” No seriously, take it.


My actual thought process to the response he’s talking about was: “Well, I give up. I ‘spose that 20 years of reading Batman may have become one giant mess in my head. I give up.”

So I post:

Now, I figure that mentioning that Alicia Silverstone knows who Batman is will 1. Get a laugh as I’m referencing the awful Batman & Robin movie where Alicia’s character is ridiculously made a member of the “Bat Team” almost immediately. 2. Show my nerd brothers that I too am a proud nerd, and 3. Mock some real crazy rants I’ve read on these message boards. Never in my mind do I think someone will take this seriously.

Very calmly… I’ve been reading comic books, including most Batman books, mini series, one shots, Elseworlds, tie ins, cross overs, team ups, wrap ups, veggie wraps, and adaptations for 20 years. It is quite possible, although highly unlikely, that these literally thousands of stories – in addition to six major motion pictures, hundreds of cartoons, dozens of fan-created shorts and my own bizarre fantasies, have confused me.

Although I doubt it…

Navinabob

Fantastic. Now cite your source. Please fill us on on any Batman stories from any of these books where the topic of him being an urban legend was clearly illustrated.

For clarification we'll toss out Elseworlds style books, cartoons and movies. We'll also toss out Legend of the Dark Knight because we all seem to agree that in that one series that was a common theme and any book that tells a "year one" type of tale because until he shows up at that crime lord dinner party and tells them that their days are numbered (look, other people have read Batman too!) he was an urban legend.

No need to recite issue numbers, book and plot-line would be great. I understand it'd only be anecdotal evidence, but I'd like at least some evidence on your side of the debate.

Dick Van Dork

No, the editors at the time stated that the stories in LotDK took place "during Bruce Wayne's early years as batman, not just during his first year.
'Course that canard got thown out the window really quickly as did the format of having a single storyline arc over 5 or so issues.

Navinabob

What should kill this debate is Vicki Vale. All her reports on Batman from the Gotham Gazette were not treated like weekly world news in the many plot-lines she was in and the newspaper itself is considered the main paper in Gotham. I can't recall any of her stories being "Does Batman exist?" but instead were usually "Who is Batman?" and ""What is his secret identity?" type of articles.

Criminals all seem to know who he is. Kids do as well as I recall kids playing with batman toys. Police know him (bat signal, manhunts, arrest warrants)... the general public seems to recognize him.

You have to have read the "War Crimes" arc (Batman #643-644, Detective Comics #809-810) where the friggin' city declares war on Batman and the public is quoted in demanding that the city gets rid of Batman?

The debate is as silly as saying Spider-Man is a urban legend in the marvel universe and ignoring every plot line that involves JJJ and the Daily Bugle.

brayzie

I'm kinda surprised Denny O'Neil would want to treat Batman as an urban legend considering all the stories he's written for the character and his familiarity with the title. I know it's just a comic, but even by comic book story standards it's not very plausible.

Anyways, LOTDK was a great series. The highlights for me were Matt Wagner's FACES storyline and then a storyline called BLADES.

Batman Black & White was also awesome.

fujishig

Ok, next nerd debate: does Superman really just vibrate his head really fast to conceal his identity (at all times, even when he's unconscious) or are the people around him really dumb enough to be fooled by a pair of glasses and a slouch?

Travis McClain

Growing up I always wondered just how anyone at the Daily Planet could be competent at their jobs and not piece this together. In today's news media climate, though, I think it's perfectly plausible that prominent journalists would be so caught up in their sound and fury agendas that they'd be entirely oblivious to such things. I mean, if it turned out that Bill O'Reilly was Superman, do you really think Glenn Beck would have the vaguest idea?

brayzie

Naw, it's like Pleasantville. They just don't notice stuff like that.

But if I had to choose, they're just too dumb. Explaining things that don't need to be explained only makes things worse.

Like George Perez explaining Wonder Woman's star spangled costume.

I did like when Lois figured out Clark was really Superman and says, "You just put on a pair of glasses and that's it? What, are we all just super-stupid?"

And Superman responds, "I've wondered that myself over the years."

kgrogers1979

Personally, I think that because Superman does not wear a mask, no one automatically assumes he is trying to hide anything and is not trying to hide his secret identity or whatever. So people are not going around all the time wondering "who is Superman?" like they might wonder "who is Batman?" So if you aren't really trying to discover who Superman is, it is easy to overlook Clark's similarity to him, especially in a city of millions of people where it is easy to overlook people.

However, I always did figure that a few people closest to Clark like Perry White probably do know Clark is Superman but have too much respect for him to let it be known.

Plus another thing, if you are a "god" like Superman, would you spend your free time pretending to be a feeble mortal human? A lot of people probably think like this, and aren't looking for Superman disguised as a human. Actually, Lex Luthor did this exact thing early in John Byrne's run. In Superman Vol.2 #2, Lex built a supercomputer that calculated that Superman is Clark Kent. Lex dismissed it saying that a "god" like Superman would never pretend to be a mere mortal.

madcougar

I live in Houston and the city is pretty much shut down because of ice on all major roads. I sat down to read some of the TPB and HC that have started to pile up and within minutes I found this in Batman: Bat and the Beast (Batman Confidential #31).



I guess that based on your "rules" this doesn't count since Batman Confidential is much like LODK.

AGAIN, I don't have a fancy Wiki page that some guy put together in his mother's basement with the "official" cannon of Batman memorized like you apparently do, but I do know that I have more than a few memories in my head like the panel above, where somebody basically states "Batman? I thought he was an urban legend." Forgive me for having 20 years of Batman lore get confused in my 40-year-old mind.

Please forgive me.

Navinabob

Thanks for the update. I don't doubt your sincerity or your judgment of key instances that can be cherry picked to prove a point. I didn't feel my "rules" were unfair. It'd just be ridiculous to say that Gwen Stacey was still alive and show issues before she died as "proof"... it'd be just intellectually dishonest.

Personally, I'd love you to be correct. I think Batman was far too over-exposed and I liked him much better in the some of the movie versions and year-one style issues where he was mostly shadow. But what we want the truth to be should never be confused with what the truth actually is.

For example, you read through several Batman TPB and HCs recently. Are you suggesting that in none of those books it was suggested that Batman wasn't an urban legend? He didn't once rescue someone, wasn't seen in daylight, wasn't named by a criminal, wasn't named by a police officer? In all the books you read everyone reacted to him with the same utter shock one would expect to find if the came across Bigfoot in the woods?

I also noticed, its something I do, that the one clip you showed it appears to some a foreigner (Japanese) talking on the phone to someone that appears also to be not of this country. I imagine that in the DC universe, Batman would seem like an urban legend in Japan. Especially at the time-frame of Bats early career (where that series takes place).

kgrogers1979

Batman Confidential is like Legends of the Dark Knight in that both series are set very early in Batman's career. It makes sense for most people to assume he is myth early on.

Also unlike Legends, I don't think most Confidential stories are considered canon.

JasonF

Also, Batman Confidential #31 came out about a year and a half ago, so it doesn't really speak to whether DC was doing the "Batman is an urban legend" thing in the late 80s.

Travis McClain

None of the interactions you mention would necessarily debunk the "urban legend" myth. How many people have insisted they've seen Bigfoot only to be dismissed by everyone else? Additionally, just because Batman saved you doesn't mean that your reaction to him would be of instant acceptance. Likelier than not, it would be overwhelming--after all, the incident itself would be traumatic for people even without Batman's participation. We rarely follow up with Gothamites, so who's to say how these individuals processed their fleeting encounters with Batman?

Which reminds me, I think the key evidence I was trying to find to support the pre-"Zero Hour" claim lies in the mini-series, Batman: Gotham Nights (1992). I'm almost certain that somewhere, either within those four issues or in another Bat-issue discussing that mini-series, that it was made clear that the purpose of that mini-series was to show the disbelieving and suspicious nature of Gothamites regarding Batman. I no longer own those four issues, nor do I own any other Bat-issues published around that time (excepting some Legends of the Dark Knight that I've already checked, and Batman Adventures). The cover dates were March through June 1992 if anyone's inclined to go rummaging.

Navinabob

That's a good point. Having eye-witnesses doesn't keep something from being a legend. But there have been media reports on Batman. We've had bad guys study footage of Batman. There was even a pre-crisis issue of Batman where he gets the key to the city. The hospital staff at Arkham have walked beside him and spoken with him, the police have as well, the press covers him (not as a myth), thousands of witnesses here.

While one eye witness is basically useless... a consensus of witnesses hold much more weight. This is especially true when outside data exists like photographs, character references like Superman, left over weapons, ect...

fujishig

John Wayne isn't real?

If Batman were in his own little world, I could understand people not knowing whether he was real. But there are hundreds of guys with even more fantastic and outrageous powers out there that everyone knows about, not to mention dozens of costumed mass murderers in Gotham itself... do they just think the police are really, really competent?

I would buy the whole uncertainty of what he really is in the criminal community. There was an episode of Batman TAS (not in comic continuity, of course) where kids were telling stories of who they thought Batman was, and it included an homage to Miller's Dark Knight and Sprang's early Batman.

I do seem to remember Batman not wanting to be in the spotlight post Legends, when the JLI (then just the Justice League) was refounded...

bluetoast

Batman was seen to be a myth as late as 2004 in the War Games storyline, where people were incredulous that he first off actually existed, and secondly was out in broad daylight.

brayzie

I don't know what Denny O'Neil was thinking when he started this urban legend business. If you reboot the character and his universe as this costumed vigilante taking out mobsters in a semi-real world, it's pretty cool.

But in the DCU, sharing a world with superheroes that can fly, and in the very same city, super powered villains are the norm, it makes absolutely no sense.

PhantomStranger

The urban legend stuff never made sense in a comic book universe where aliens regularly attack the entire Earth and everyone knows it. They did it solely to add a little mystique to a character that did not need it in Batman.

Comic book writers have never really explored this territory in the DC or Marvel universes, but the culture of Earth would be radically different if hundreds of superhumans showed up claiming to be Gods and aliens while regularly battling for no apparent reason. Almost every institution would be changed on levels unimaginable to us.

Travis McClain

I thought it worked quite well in Legends of the Dark Knight, where the reader need not concern himself with any other characters or storylines. Essentially, Batman operated in a vacuum in that title.

It's rare, but it has happened. Look at Powers, for instance, or the way that both Moore and Miller included running commentary from the media, talking heads and regular people in Watchmen and Dark Knight. It would be interesting to see what daily life would be for, say, an insurance claims adjuster in Metropolis. Or a pawn shop owner in Gotham.

Preterite

Astro City is great for this sort of thing.