scout

I would like to get a discussion going on current trends/directions that people are seeing in the fantasy genre. Specifically, I think there is a growing trend to write fantasy novels for adults rather than teenagers and kids. I used to read quite a bit of this stuff when I was younger, but I gave it up sometime shortly after high school. Then, several years ago, I was sort of reeled back in by George R. R. Martin's A Game of Thrones, as well as the subsequent novels in the Song of Ice and Fire series.

There are a several things that strike me as significant about SOIF: 1) the multithreaded character perspectives that he uses to tell the story, 2) the gritty realism of his world, including the varying shades of gray that define his characters as good or evil and 3) the limited use of magic in the storyline (you know it's out there but it isn't well understood and it isn't part of any one character's toolkit).

To me, one of the more appealing aspects of SOIF is that it seems to have been written for an adult audience, whereas the Fantasy genre in general seems to pander to kids and teenagers more than anything else. Since reading the first three books several years ago, I've kept my eye open for more of these "grownup" fantasy novels, and I have found a few authors that seem to be stretching the genre in this direction. Robin Hobb, for instance, although I personally find her stories less compelling. I like Guy Gavriel Kay very much as well. Again, not as compelling to me personally as George R. R. Martin, but his stories are well thought out and believable and I love the very sparing use of magic in his books, at least the ones I've read so far. Most recently, I've run across Steven Erikson's Malazan Book of the Fallen. I just finished the first book, Gardens of the Moon, about a week ago, and I have the next two coming to me in the mail sometime this week. Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series seems to be somewhere in the middle between being written for teenagers and adults. There are aspects to it that I like, that I think are very interesting and compelling, while others are less so. The whole concept of the Seanchan, for instance, and their sense of manifest destiny, is really interesting to me. On the other hand, I find the reincarnation aspect less interesting because I don't believe it is handled with enough subtlety.

I think George R. R. Martin and Steven Erikson are probably the two most groundbreaking authors in the fantasy genre right now, at least within this subcategory of novels written with adults in mind. I mentioned before that one of the the aspects of SOIF and the Kay novels that I like is the sparing use of magic to advance the storyline. Erikson goes completely in the opposite direction. In his world, magic is all pervasive and the gods walk the earth, conspire against one another, and interfere daily in the affairs of humans. Interesting contrast, but the pervasive use of magic works for Erikson because he is a really great writer and because his world is so well developed, he is able to overcome the more fantastical.

Anyway, these are just some of the scattered thoughts I have on this genre.

funkyryno

Fantasy is about all I used to read when I was a teenager. Now I have a hard time finding a series or even single books that appeal to me. I have a hard time nowadays even finishing a lot of fantasy novels. Unfortunately, there's not enough variety in the genre. They all seem to follow the same formula.

But there are some authors that I have enjoyed that you've already mentioned: George R.R. Martin and Robin Hobbes.

Robert Jordan's "Wheel of Time" series, as most readers will agree, is turning into an epic train wreck.

Not the traditional fantasy, I recommend Neil Gaiman's "American Gods." A pretty fun read. Doesn't really show too much of a maturation of the fantasy genre, but it does get you to think a little more than the average fantasy novel.

Tad Williams has shown some promise. I just finished his "War of the Flowers" novel. It wasn't perfect, but it was refreshing -- and it wasn't a trilogy. I loved his "Otherland" series, which was a mix of cyberpunk science fiction and fantasy. I think his writing has matured somewhat from his "Green Angel Tower" series, which followed the fantasy formula too closely (but I still enjoyed it). I'm going to give "Tailchaser's Song" a try.

Tom Banjo

I've read a lot of the D&D related stuf, i.e. Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance. I was really into R.A. Salvatore and Weis & Hickman back in high school. And then both of those series started to go downhill, although I've heard that Salvatore's new Lone Drow trilogy is pretty good. I made about halfway through the 4th Wheel of Time book; it's a shame that series started to suck so bad. It really started out looking like it'd kick major ass.
I've read some Gaiman, but (and I know I'm in the minority on this) I couldn't get into American Gods at all.
For my money, King's Dark Tower series is the best fantasy out there right now.

Eric F

There are kids fantasy novels, and then there is more adult fare, no different than any other genre. If you mean there's more graphic descriptions of sex, then yes, I'd agree here, especially in material by some of the authors you've mentioned.

Fantasy for kids is big these days, especially with the success of Harry Potter. Just go to Amazon and look at how much Fantasy is being targeted at them.

Fantasy is really going nowhere. I read it, and I like it, but I know they're all just pale comparisons to Tolkien.

TeeSeeJay

I think Fantasy is primarily a "juvenile" genre because you can't really explore very mature themes. I mean, you CAN, but why would anyone bother?

I want a story about an epic fight between good and evil, I read fantasy.

I want a story about a man's struggle with identity or relationships or any number of "mature" themes, I read a non-genre piece of contemporary literature.

Why? Because putting "mature" themes in a fantasy setting doesn't enhance anything about the story.

Rewrite "On The Road" with an elf and a dwarf, and put them in a world of magic. What do you get?

mllefoo

I always enjoyed Alan Dean Foster's Spellsinger series, Philip Jose Farmer's World of Tiers series, and the original Xanth trilogy (before the trilogy became 37 books long). Unfortunately, I'm not seeing anything in fantasy worth reading anymore, apart from an occasional Pratchett, or the next Harry Potter book.

Eric F

Oh there's good stuff, but the Elf/Dwarf stuff is getting tired. Terry Brooks is the perfect example- I was in the library the other day and noticed he has another Shannara book out. I know the stuff sells, but it's average literature at best- at least the last 3 books were.

George Martin's stuff is about as good as we're going to get in the genre.

The really good stuff in "Fantasy" but not really fantasy at all. That's why Gene Wolfe's stuff is so underappreciated- it's a hard, completative read, and most people don't want to tackle those themes- they just want Elves and Dwarves.

funkyryno

I forgot about Gene Wolfe's books. I read the first two novels of his torturer series and loved them. Thought-provoking yet they still contain some action and adventure to wake you up.

I think you hit the nail on the head. There's a distinction between the genre fantasy novels -- Elves, Dwarves and evil Dark Lords -- and fantasy novels, which could include anything from Lord of the Rings to Alice in Wonderland.

I love Pratchet's novels because he's able to take the genre cliches and craft some fun and entertaining reads.

Anyone read "Lord Fool's Bane" by Stephen R. Donaldson? I read them a long time ago when I was in junior high and they seemed to dwell on some adult topics and themes. The main character is afflicted with leprosy and after an accident finds himself in a fantastical foreign land. Contains the typical good guys vs. bad guys struggle, but goes beyond that as it delves into the main character's psychological state. I think I'll have to read this series again now that I'm a little older.

Eric F

Haven't any of Donaldson's stuff yet.

I am reading the Robin Hobb Tawny Man series and it's pretty good. She is writing from a male's perspective, and sometimes she gets too feminine- one line about a guy having a "horse between his thighs" made me shudder a bit. Lol.

scout

In reply to TeeSeeJay's comments: I guess to a certain extent, there is always that escapist aspect to reading fantasy novels over other genres. I suspect, however, that people that write fantasy are doing so largely because they loved the genre growing up and became writers because of it. If those authors, now grown up, find that they need to explore more mature themes, isn't it natural that they would do so within their chosen genre? George R. R. Martin's novels work very well as an exploration of the varying "shades of gray" in human character. His novels have nothing to do with an epic fight between good and evil. To a lesser extent, you can say the same thing about the work of Robin Hobb, Guy Gavriel Kay, and Steven Erikson, which is really what I'm trying to get at in bringing up this discussion. It seems like there is that part of the genre now that is being written for grownups that wasn't there fifteen years ago. Maybe I'm wrong about that. I opted out of the genre years ago because I perceived it was all about elves and dwarves and magic, which when I reached a certain age, I was no longer able to relate to. Then one day, I happened to run across A Game of Thrones, which led me back into finding all these other authors.

SiberianLlama

Wow, this is a pretty good discussions so far. I don't know if I have anything really to contribute yet, but I look forward to reading more posts from you people.

And another vote for George R. R. Martin and Robin Hob as great "adult" fantasy authors.

Blade

RE: "On the Road"

That hardly seems a fair reaction. Could you set On the Road as a murder/mystery? A Romance novel? A techno-thriller?

Fantasy is a genre, and like any genre is going to be limited in certain ways by that. But within those limitations, Fantasy/Sci Fi is certainly able to tackle many of the different aspects of human nature and the human condition.

For myself, I have too little time to venture outside of writers I discovered a long time ago. I really should start going to the library again. At least that way I can try out new authors at no cost.

VoreLord

George R.R. Martin and Robin Hobb are my two favorites in the genre now. J.V. Jones's current Sword Of Shadows series is pretty good too. The first book starts kind of slow, but once it gets going it's quite engaging. I also highly recommend Lynn Flewelling's current series. I picked up " The Bone Doll's Twin " after reading about it on GRRM's website and it is really good.

Has anyone ever read C.S. Friedman's Coldfire trilogy ? That's some great stuff as is Mickey Zucker Reichert's first Renshai trilogy.

SiberianLlama

I've read C.S. Friedman's Coldfire Trilogy. I thought that the first book was really really good, and Gerald Tarrant, as a character, was amazing. The second two books went down in quality, at least to me, because the series seemed to follow the formula of "We beat the bad guy, now we need to beat the bad guy controlling the guy we just defeated." And it went on for the two sequels.

Not to say that they're bad books, but the first one was by far, much better than the subsequent books. The character of Gerald Tarrant is one of the best anti-heroes in fantasy fiction that I've come across.

Chris Camfield

I really love Steven Erikson's books; I think they're the best things being written right now in fantasy. I need to give Martin another try as I didn't think the first book was fantastic enough to read the second.

Anyhow, on to some thoughts about other good books. I think that Martin and Erickson, in writing grittier fantasy stories, are following in the footsteps of Glen Cook whose Black Company series is pretty dark. The books may not be as sophisticated as theirs, though, and no they're not Gene Wolfe by any stretch of the imagination. He also wrote a great standalone novel with an Arabian Night(mare!) flavour called The Tower of Fear.

Some other books to consider, maybe.

Bridge of Birds, by Barry Hughart. This is a totally delightful novel set in a fantastic version of ancient China. Not particularly an "adult" novel (which I would use to refer to a maturity of themes rather than sexual or violent content), but it's so wonderful that everyone should read it.

Mythago Wood, by Robert Holdstock. Hard to describe... it involves exploration of a forest which in some way contains remnants of myths housed in the human subconscious

The Scavenger trilogy (first book called Shadow) by K. J. Parker. Very low-magic fantasy about a man who wakes up on a battlefield with amnesia and gradually discovers that he's some sort of horrible monster of a person (as people try to kill him). Amnesia certainly has been used before, but Parker is a really great writer even when he's describing everyday farm life at great length in the second book.


Anecode... I recently re-read a book from my childhood, relatively speaking - The Misenchanted Sword, by Lawrence Watt-Evans. The first of the Ethshar books by this author, it's about a lone soldier who gets an enchanted sword which will keep him pretty much immortal... until he's killed 100 men with it, whereupon IT will kill HIM. What's interesting about this from an adult point of view is how the author contrasts what his protagonist does from what other characters might expect him to do. He DOESN'T choose to carve out his own empire, or go on fantastic adventures, so it's a sort of a counterpoint to that sort of fantasy novel.

Sn0

Donaldson was a good read and deals with his almost self-loathing, about his lack of confidence to do anything in his "Real" world. His wife has left him the town shuns him, and he gets pulled into a world where he is basically sent from the gods, he is the ultimate reluctant hero. It is gritty fantasy like Martins stuff and has adult themes that run through it. The only thing that brought it down for me was his constant complaining through out all of the books. I figured he would mature just a bit.

As far as adult themes another book I have read that did a good job was Kusheil’s dart. It is about a land basically alternate British empire type thing where there are orders of Prostitutes that have different qualities, and they have to earn there way out of these “ Houses” the main characters house is one full of Sadists where they love to be punished. I know what it sounds like but it is really a good read. The Female hero uses her skills to find out what is happening in their land. The story goes on from there but I felt it was really well done.

Adult themes also show up in Children’s fantasy take a read of Phillip Pullman’s His dark Materials and what he describes in them a feeble god versions of heaven and hell some really powerful stuff that gets the church in an uproar already.

scout

Some good additions to the conversation since I last checked this board. Strangely enough, I haven't read Glen Cook or Gene Wolfe, although I've always known about them. I think when I looked at them years ago, they were probably too adult for me, but now that I'm all grown up, maybe I should look again! I'm currently dividing my reading time between Erikson's Deadhouse Gates and the fifth and final volume of Paul Kearney's Monarchies of God series, called Ships From the West. Regarding the latter, talk about a series the author needed to shelve for a few years and think about! He's actually not a bad writer, and the story is very gritty, which is what I like, but structurally this thing is a mess. He really should have sat on this thing for a while and worked on it, or found another author to collaborate with him, because the raw potential is there for a great story, an epic fantasy series, but it just comes up short. The biggest problem I have with it is this sense that the story is being hurried along, that there should have been a lot more to tell. The timeline of the first four books is within a single year, or thereabouts, but it seems like he would have been better off stretching it over four or five years. That's just a feeling I get. Also, to call this a series is a little bit deceptive, because the first four books all read like they're part of the same novel, which I'm sure they originally were before his publisher laid down the law. But now, I'm starting the fifth and final book and the timeline is roughly seventeen years later. But, this book isn't any longer than the others so my expectation is that the new plotline will be woefully underdeveloped as well. Imagine reading a 1200 page novel and then the sequel comes out and it is only 350 pages; not very balanced in my opinion.

Eric F

Gene Wolfe is one of the best authors in the English language today, in any genre.

scout

I should read Gene Wolfe. I'm almost convinced, but I'll probably start The Black Company next and see how I like that.

dcswirl

I read SOIF to this point and I loved it. I can't wait til the next one comes out. I'm reading Tad Williams "The Dragonbone Chair" in the meantime. It's very good, but not up to par with Martin. Martin did say though that reading Tad Williams inspired him to do SOIF.

msdmoney

Just started "A Game of Thrones" (up to page 500) by Martin on the advice of this board. So far I am enjoying it, a little too soap-operish in some parts, but it has enjoyable characters thus far and the story seems to be picking up more and more. Thanks to those who reccomended it. This has to be the first time since elementary school reading Terry Brooks that I have gotten back into the genre and reading (other than school) for that matter.

Also picked up the first two books of "The Book of the New Sun" by Gene Wolfe so I will hit those next.