George R.R. Martin again -- what are the criticisms of these novels?
03-11-09, 11:24 AM
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03-12-09, 08:08 AM
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03-13-09, 07:38 AM
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Re: George R.R. Martin again -- what are the criticisms of these novels?
I see that a lot of people seem to have read George R.R. Martin's fantasy novels and enjoyed them. But I've yet to see any serious criticism of their content or writing style.
Tell me - those who've read the series thus far - is this a case where the book is entirely plot and no description? I truly can't stand novels that zip along on a stream of stand-alone quotations, with little to no time spent establishing place and mood. Is "Clash of Kings" this way? Does the reader really get the sense that this is some far-away place in a far-away land? Or is it simply generic fantasy world trappings with a "barn-burner"/"page-turner" type plot?
I guess what I'm asking is: how close to lyricism does the author come in his descriptions of time and place? How would Martin's writing compare to someone a bit more flowery, like say a Harlan Ellison, a Ray Bradbury or a John Crowley? Is he sparse and serviceable? Or does he approach his writing more artfully?
Speaking of Crowley - does anyone have a recommedation for a novel to read in the style and spirit of Crowley's masterpiece "Little, Big?" I'm dying to read something that expansive, descriptive and "totally in love with the written word" this summer.
Tell me - those who've read the series thus far - is this a case where the book is entirely plot and no description? I truly can't stand novels that zip along on a stream of stand-alone quotations, with little to no time spent establishing place and mood. Is "Clash of Kings" this way? Does the reader really get the sense that this is some far-away place in a far-away land? Or is it simply generic fantasy world trappings with a "barn-burner"/"page-turner" type plot?
I guess what I'm asking is: how close to lyricism does the author come in his descriptions of time and place? How would Martin's writing compare to someone a bit more flowery, like say a Harlan Ellison, a Ray Bradbury or a John Crowley? Is he sparse and serviceable? Or does he approach his writing more artfully?
Speaking of Crowley - does anyone have a recommedation for a novel to read in the style and spirit of Crowley's masterpiece "Little, Big?" I'm dying to read something that expansive, descriptive and "totally in love with the written word" this summer.
there is a ton of characters , history, etc....not necesarily a bad thing but when there is so much time between novels it makes it very hard to "orient" yourself back in his world and remember who is who and what is what..etc..
04-02-09, 02:21 PM
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Re: George R.R. Martin again -- what are the criticisms of these novels?
definately not a page turner IMO except in the number of pages as mentioned above..bloated is an understatement..
considering his last book and the new one were originally one novel that got split I gotta wonder why the second half is taking so long
personally ive lost interest in the whole series at this point..it will be too much of chore to pickup again
considering his last book and the new one were originally one novel that got split I gotta wonder why the second half is taking so long
personally ive lost interest in the whole series at this point..it will be too much of chore to pickup again
Last edited by Deke Rivers; 04-02-09 at 02:24 PM.
04-05-09, 10:04 AM
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Re: George R.R. Martin again -- what are the criticisms of these novels?
definately not a page turner IMO except in the number of pages as mentioned above..bloated is an understatement..
considering his last book and the new one were originally one novel that got split I gotta wonder why the second half is taking so long
personally ive lost interest in the whole series at this point..it will be too much of chore to pickup again
considering his last book and the new one were originally one novel that got split I gotta wonder why the second half is taking so long
personally ive lost interest in the whole series at this point..it will be too much of chore to pickup again
04-07-09, 01:54 PM
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Re: George R.R. Martin again -- what are the criticisms of these novels?
I feel the same exact way. I went from loving this series and sitting on the edge of my seat waiting for the next book to arrive, to dropping it and selling the books I have. I thought the last book was bad, and I feel like he lied when he said he split the book and they would come out back to back. I don't think he had even written anything for the other part yet. There is no way rewrites of a completed novel take years.
04-13-09, 12:04 AM
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Re: George R.R. Martin again -- what are the criticisms of these novels?
I didn't think the quality dropped off for Feast as much as some have said. It was just such a new cast of characters that I think a lot of folks were disappointed.
Totally agree on the sentiment that he's been lying about the readiness of the other book. He's stuck, and has been stuck for a VERY long time, and does not want to admit it.
I think we'll eventaully get Dance, but I'm afraid that could be it. Martin can then go on working on projects that virtually no one cares about. Yeah George, keep telling yourself that any sizable fan base gives even a little shit about Wild Cards.
Totally agree on the sentiment that he's been lying about the readiness of the other book. He's stuck, and has been stuck for a VERY long time, and does not want to admit it.
I think we'll eventaully get Dance, but I'm afraid that could be it. Martin can then go on working on projects that virtually no one cares about. Yeah George, keep telling yourself that any sizable fan base gives even a little shit about Wild Cards.
04-30-09, 03:06 PM
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Re: George R.R. Martin again -- what are the criticisms of these novels?
Agree with everyone here, Dance is probably going to be the last book. I will still buy it and enjoy it (hopefully more than Feast), but I have no faith that he will ever finish this series.
I do like Wild Cards, but it is not something I really care about. I think he is juggling too many (non-book related) projects like calendar, figurines, boardgames, etc etc etc instead of finishing the book. I can't fault him for his success, but perhaps he should have taken a more hands-off approach to those projects.
I do like Wild Cards, but it is not something I really care about. I think he is juggling too many (non-book related) projects like calendar, figurines, boardgames, etc etc etc instead of finishing the book. I can't fault him for his success, but perhaps he should have taken a more hands-off approach to those projects.
05-01-09, 12:15 AM
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Re: George R.R. Martin again -- what are the criticisms of these novels?
He doesn't want a hands-off approach. All the side garbage allows him to rationalize not writing.
05-01-09, 08:07 AM
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Re: George R.R. Martin again -- what are the criticisms of these novels?
The dude's not our employee. He'll write when he wants to write and when he's ready to write it. And he can write and work on whatever the hell he wants otherwise, just like he's free to watch football or whatever. He doesn't have to slave away at the typewriter for us.
I've been waiting for the rest of the David Gerrold books "The War with the Chtorr". He wrote the first one in 1983 (when I was like 4). The last one to come out was 1993...the next one is "almost done" and they're estimating 2011 for a publishing date. Now that's a wait.
I've been waiting for the rest of the David Gerrold books "The War with the Chtorr". He wrote the first one in 1983 (when I was like 4). The last one to come out was 1993...the next one is "almost done" and they're estimating 2011 for a publishing date. Now that's a wait.
05-01-09, 09:28 AM
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Re: George R.R. Martin again -- what are the criticisms of these novels?
The dude's not our employee. He'll write when he wants to write and when he's ready to write it. And he can write and work on whatever the hell he wants otherwise, just like he's free to watch football or whatever. He doesn't have to slave away at the typewriter for us.
05-02-09, 12:16 AM
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Re: George R.R. Martin again -- what are the criticisms of these novels?
The notion that Martin owes his loyal readers nothing is absurd. He's promised us a complete story. Many of us have shelled out our hard-earned cash on his books based on that promise. If we get concerned that his promise might be broken, we're going to voice that concern.
05-02-09, 01:07 AM
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Re: George R.R. Martin again -- what are the criticisms of these novels?
I think I'll wait until the series is finished, if that ever happens, before I pick up the books again. I have Feast, but only read the very beginning. It had been so long since I'd read the other 3 books, back to back, that I lost track of what was happening and who was where. Then there were a bunch of new characters, and I just had a very hard time getting into it. It would have been nice if he had introduced the key characters over the first couple books, then pretty much kept it there... even though he does like to kill people off! I think the other reason I was turned off to the new books was that some of my favorite characters, like Jon snow and Bran, were not in it.
Does Martin supposedly have the plot at least outlined through till the end? I think that's one reason I thought the storytelling in the Harry Potter series was so good, is that it seemed like Rowling knew what she wanted to have happen, and how the whole thing was going to end, before she even released the first book. Everything fit together.
Does Martin supposedly have the plot at least outlined through till the end? I think that's one reason I thought the storytelling in the Harry Potter series was so good, is that it seemed like Rowling knew what she wanted to have happen, and how the whole thing was going to end, before she even released the first book. Everything fit together.
Last edited by bdshort; 05-02-09 at 01:10 AM.
05-02-09, 01:32 PM
#115
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Re: George R.R. Martin again -- what are the criticisms of these novels?
The dude's not our employee. He'll write when he wants to write and when he's ready to write it. And he can write and work on whatever the hell he wants otherwise, just like he's free to watch football or whatever. He doesn't have to slave away at the typewriter for us.
I've been waiting for the rest of the David Gerrold books "The War with the Chtorr". He wrote the first one in 1983 (when I was like 4). The last one to come out was 1993...the next one is "almost done" and they're estimating 2011 for a publishing date. Now that's a wait.
I've been waiting for the rest of the David Gerrold books "The War with the Chtorr". He wrote the first one in 1983 (when I was like 4). The last one to come out was 1993...the next one is "almost done" and they're estimating 2011 for a publishing date. Now that's a wait.
05-03-09, 02:08 PM
#116
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Re: George R.R. Martin again -- what are the criticisms of these novels?
The dude's not our employee. He'll write when he wants to write and when he's ready to write it. And he can write and work on whatever the hell he wants otherwise, just like he's free to watch football or whatever. He doesn't have to slave away at the typewriter for us.
I've been waiting for the rest of the David Gerrold books "The War with the Chtorr". He wrote the first one in 1983 (when I was like 4). The last one to come out was 1993...the next one is "almost done" and they're estimating 2011 for a publishing date. Now that's a wait.
I've been waiting for the rest of the David Gerrold books "The War with the Chtorr". He wrote the first one in 1983 (when I was like 4). The last one to come out was 1993...the next one is "almost done" and they're estimating 2011 for a publishing date. Now that's a wait.
05-04-09, 01:00 AM
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Re: George R.R. Martin again -- what are the criticisms of these novels?
I have finally come to the conclusion that I need a partner for the DANCE as well, a collaborator to help me finish the remaining books in A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE.
Once I reached that realization, there could be only one possible choice -- my oldest friend in this field, winner of the Nebula and the World Fantasy Award, multiple Hugo loser, the brilliant, irascible, and ever-stylish Howard Waldrop.
Once I reached that realization, there could be only one possible choice -- my oldest friend in this field, winner of the Nebula and the World Fantasy Award, multiple Hugo loser, the brilliant, irascible, and ever-stylish Howard Waldrop.
05-04-09, 04:13 PM
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Re: George R.R. Martin again -- what are the criticisms of these novels?
The notion that Martin owes his loyal readers nothing is absurd. He's promised us a complete story. Many of us have shelled out our hard-earned cash on his books based on that promise. If we get concerned that his promise might be broken, we're going to voice that concern.
That said, he'd be better off never giving potential dates of publication until he has a book signed, sealed and delivered. It is annoying when he says 'it'll be published in the summer of 07' and then changes that to 'the fall of 08' and so on and so forth. He does somewhat set himself up to get reamed by fans by throwing out possible deadlines and then failing to come anywhere close to them.
The sad side-effect of his publicly-stated, shifting deadlines is that his books will sell less. I, for one, won't be buying Dance when it comes out, unless he announces it's the last book in the series and wraps the story up. Otherwise, I'll just wait and see if series is finished some day. If that happens, I'll re-read the first four books and then keep reading through to the end. Honestly, though, I've lost faith in his ability to wrap it up. They're great books, but I have little interest in continuing to read them unless the story will be completed. I don't think Martin owes his fans anything, but I also don't think we owe him our money when he gets the next book out.
05-05-09, 02:00 AM
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Re: George R.R. Martin again -- what are the criticisms of these novels?
That said, he'd be better off never giving potential dates of publication until he has a book signed, sealed and delivered. It is annoying when he says 'it'll be published in the summer of 07' and then changes that to 'the fall of 08' and so on and so forth. He does somewhat set himself up to get reamed by fans by throwing out possible deadlines and then failing to come anywhere close to them.
The sad side-effect of his publicly-stated, shifting deadlines is that his books will sell less. I, for one, won't be buying Dance when it comes out, unless he announces it's the last book in the series and wraps the story up. Otherwise, I'll just wait and see if series is finished some day. If that happens, I'll re-read the first four books and then keep reading through to the end. Honestly, though, I've lost faith in his ability to wrap it up. They're great books, but I have little interest in continuing to read them unless the story will be completed. I don't think Martin owes his fans anything, but I also don't think we owe him our money when he gets the next book out.
The sad side-effect of his publicly-stated, shifting deadlines is that his books will sell less. I, for one, won't be buying Dance when it comes out, unless he announces it's the last book in the series and wraps the story up. Otherwise, I'll just wait and see if series is finished some day. If that happens, I'll re-read the first four books and then keep reading through to the end. Honestly, though, I've lost faith in his ability to wrap it up. They're great books, but I have little interest in continuing to read them unless the story will be completed. I don't think Martin owes his fans anything, but I also don't think we owe him our money when he gets the next book out.
To add to that, I also think part of the problem was splitting the 4th part of the series in half while saying that the second half should be published within a reasonably short time frame. It's pretty irritating to knock out a somewhat lengthy book and have it take 4+ years for the second "half" to make it to publication knowing that many of the primary plotlines of the first "half" will be likely be left hanging until the 6th book if the author can't find room to address them in the 5th book.
05-07-09, 12:05 PM
#122
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Re: George R.R. Martin again -- what are the criticisms of these novels?
You know...
I read the first 3 books back-to-back, what, I guess 8 years ago or so and LOVED them. Absolutely loved them. So it was with great anticipation I waited for Book 4... and waited. By the time the 4th book was about to be published, I had long since forgotten much of the book's many plot threads, characters, situations, etc.
So I bought an Audible subscription and got the first 3 books (read by a PHENOMENAL narrator whose name eludes me right now) and got reacquainted real fast. Obviously, it's a LONG listen but given I spent about 2+ hrs in the car every day, it was a godsend.
But even that was a few years ago. And I'm completely in the dark again. And honestly, my desire to go back into that world is much more muted now, especially given the fact that things seem to be moving so glacially at this point.
Groin
I read the first 3 books back-to-back, what, I guess 8 years ago or so and LOVED them. Absolutely loved them. So it was with great anticipation I waited for Book 4... and waited. By the time the 4th book was about to be published, I had long since forgotten much of the book's many plot threads, characters, situations, etc.
So I bought an Audible subscription and got the first 3 books (read by a PHENOMENAL narrator whose name eludes me right now) and got reacquainted real fast. Obviously, it's a LONG listen but given I spent about 2+ hrs in the car every day, it was a godsend.
But even that was a few years ago. And I'm completely in the dark again. And honestly, my desire to go back into that world is much more muted now, especially given the fact that things seem to be moving so glacially at this point.
Groin
05-07-09, 03:16 PM
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Re: George R.R. Martin again -- what are the criticisms of these novels?
Interesting choice. I always pictured Tyrion as being taller than Dinklage, about midway between a midget/dwarf and an average-sized person. I also pictured him being hideously ugly, but I suppose make-up can help with that. The question is, if the show is incredibly successful and does one season per book, what are they going to do when they run out of source material in four years?
