Next thing you know someone will mention the PS2 Toy Story comment again lol.

I had to laugh at that myself. DVD players were still $300 when the PS2 hit people. It was a comparible trade off, get a stand alone player or a PS2 that does more for the same price?

Also the PS2 was (and is) a very low quality DVD player. Sure it has all the functionality but the quality of the picture is pretty sub par all told. The same will probably be true of the Blu-Ray player in the PS3. The point of including the player functionality will be to get people on board with the format. It's similar to the razor blade market. Get people to buy the fusion razor for $11.99 and then charge $20 for replacement cartridges. Once they have the blade they are more likely to buy the replacement cartidges. More volume = lower marginal costs = more efficiecy = lower prices yadda yadda yadda

Although all of this silence is getting me a little concerned about the launch date. Even the developers haven't squeaked about anything. The devs will lose a lot of $$ this winter if the PS3 is not launched (or the PS2 is not dropped to $99).

Not to beat a dead horse but there definitely were DVD players at the $99-$129 price range when PS2 came out. At the time I worked for a Best Buy store while still in school. I'm not saying they were quality by any means, but they were there on our shelves. I believe the base model from Sony was selling for $149 and there were cheaper brands for less.

That being said, let's hope that when the PS3 does finally come out that they're able to have at least close to enough stock for the demand (not likely, but I can dream) which will be nuts. Microsoft dropped the ball with the 360 launch in this regard.

Well, I have to stand corrected. This article dated 11/28/00 is discussing $99 DVD Players, so they did exists. Of course, all the comments on the article say how bad the player is, and for people to stay away.

The GDC is three weeks away on the 22nd. Developers and the rest of us may get an answer there at the PS3 keynote.

I'm not saying I doubt you, but I bought my DVD player in the summer of 99 for $350. I doubt the majority of [name brand] players dropped $250 in a 15 month span. They dropped quick, but that seems a bit too quick.

That is a very solid point.

I disagree. Both players will only be sold to the early adoptors. Look how long it's taken for HDTV to make even a small dent in the general population. Six months or a year won't make an ounce of difference to this battle, which let's face it will take years to pan out. Most people, I suspect, will feel even if they have an HDTV that DVD images look good enough and certainly not worth the upgrade. Heck, I'm a pretty big HT guy and saw many HD DVDs and BR DVD up and running, and that's pretty much my impression.

I still think that the PS3 may be enough to push BR over the top since many people won't feel the need to plunk hundreds down to upgrade their DVD system, but might if that system also plays cool games. But I also saw a PS3 BR playback demo and it wasn't that impressive...

You probably purchased the model with the built in DD decoder. Back then receivers were half and half some with 5.1 decoders, and others with just the 5.1 channel input. For that reason DVD players were the same. Some had built in DD decoders and had a 5.1 mutichannel output for receivers (3 pairs of RCA cables) that don't have the decoder along with the optical and/or coax. Others did not have the decoder in them (like most/all players now) and just had standard analog RCA outputs along with optical and/or coax. The models with the decoder built in were about $100 more. I had a ton of customers who bought them for the pure reason that they thought they were better because they were more expensive even after I explained that it wasn't needed because they were also buying a receiver with DD built in. I'm not saying that that's what you did, but it could explain why it was so expensive.

You're right noonan. I remember the one I bought had the DD decoder built in.

Where did you see a PS3 BR demo? I never saw any coverage of this on any news site?

Also can you honestly tell me you can't see a difference in quality between HD broadcasts and DVD quality? DVD's look a lot worse than broadcast images in my opinion. Check out Lost in HD and then check out Return of the Clones or some other reference (Digital transfer) DVD and the difference is startling.

Just FYI, here is a cool example of how good HD looks versus standard 480P DVD's.
http://www.cornbread.org/FOTRCompare/index.html

The movie is Lord of the Rings: FOTR and you have to mouse over the images to compare the HD and the DVD versions of the movie. Startling.

Playstation 3 : Everything We Know (1up.com)
 

http://www.1up.com/do/feature?pager....=0&cId=3148332

by Jake McNeill and Sam Kennedy 3.1.2006

It's easy to understand why many gamers still don't know what to make of the PlayStation 3. To this day, Sony still swears up and down that the PS3 will be released this spring, and yet here we are in March, and much about Sony's next-generation console remains a mystery. What will the system cost? How powerful will it be? What kind of online structure will it have? Some of the answers are still elusive, but little by little the picture is becoming clearer, and as the console's release approaches, it seems like a good time to regroup and look over what we know, what we can speculate, and what we can only guess about the PlayStation 3.

What follows is a summary of everything we know about Sony's machine, and our best guess at what we can expect to hear more about later this year.

The System:

Hardware, Software, and Controller

Sony seems to be promising the world with the PlayStation 3, and while not everything about the console has been finalized just yet, the facts they have released so far have set the foundation for what we can expect from the system. We know what hardware powers the system, what publishers and developers are making games for it, what types of disc formats it will read, and even what the controller we'll be using to play the games is like. Here's what we know so far.

Under the Hood

The driving force behind the PlayStation 3 will be the 3.2GHz Cell processor, a multi-core processor designed to handle multiple tasks simultaneously, and scale to meet the needs of each task accordingly. The graphics will be powered by the NVidia-designed 550 MHz RSX GPU, which NVidia claims will be more powerful than two GeForce 6800 Ultra video cards combined. In addition, the PS3 will have 256MB of main RAM, combined with 256MB of VRAM. The console will support TVs running in 1080p progressive scan mode, and will be capable of running sound in Dolby 5.1, DTS and LPCM. It will also have a 2.5" detachable hard drive, although little information, such as how much storage space it will offer, has been announced just yet.

Blu-Ray

Sony is also using the PS3 to push the new Blu-Ray disc format, which they believe will entice consumers to adopt the format much in the same way that the PS2 encouraged adoption of DVD. Sony believes that Blu-Ray will replace DVD in the same way that DVD technology has replaced VHS. While the PS3's Blu-Ray drive is believed to attribute significantly to the console's cost, Sony sees the format's fast transfer rate and larger capacity (initially 50GB on dual-layered discs) as essential for the upcoming generation of games. The PS3's Blu-Ray drive will also cater to older formats, playing PlayStation and PS2 games, DVD movies, and CD Audio.

Connectivity and Control

The PS3 Hardware will have 1000BASE-T Ethernet, as well as 802.11b/g Wi-Fi (the same wireless technology the PSP uses) and Bluetooth 2.0. Furthermore, the system will have 6 USB 2.0 ports (4 in the front and 2 in the back) and ports for a Sony Memory Stick, SD card and CompactFlash card. However, it won't have ports for the old PlayStation 2 controllers and memory cards, so those looking to use the console's backwards-compatibility features will have to start fresh using PS3 accessories (although, in all fairness, the same goes for the Xbox 360).

The PS3 controller (often mockingly referred to as the "batarang" or "banana" by critics) will be a great departure from the DualShock-style controllers that have previously been Sony's standard, with a look that's like& well, like a batarang or banana. The console will support up to 7 of these standard controllers using its wireless Bluetooth connectivity, although the other connection methods will also be used to interface with the PS3 in various ways, including the ability to interact with the PSP via Wi-Fi. Sony has also noted that the popular EyeToy device will work with the PS3, and it's actually used for a few announced titles.

Third-Party Support

Much like the original PlayStation and PlayStation 2, the PlayStation 3 will have strong third-party support, with most major third-party publishers and developers already working on titles for the machine, including EA, Konami, Namco, Capcom, Sega, Ubisoft, Rockstar, Square Enix, Atari, Activision, Midway, and countless others. At last count (TGS, in September '05), the list of Japanese publishers alone numbered 71. Suffice it to say that game companies seem to have every confidence that the PS3 will be just as successful as the PS2, if not more so.

The Questions: Price, Date, and... Online?

We know the basics about what hardware the PlayStation 3 uses and who's working on it, but some of the more important questions remain unanswered. Questions about price and release date have reached fever pitch in recent weeks, and everyone still wonders how the machine will compare to the competition, particularly the already-released Xbox 360. Here's what we can gather about some of the less-certain questions regarding the PS3.

Just How Powerful Is It?

While Sony has missed no opportunity to tout the potential of the Cell processor and RSX GPU, it still remains unclear just how powerful the PS3 will be, and how it will compare to the Xbox 360 (much less Nintendo's even more mysterious Revolution). Sony claims the machine is 35 times more powerful than the PlayStation 2, and has implied that the machine may be capable of nearly twice the performance of the Xbox 360.

Conversely, many developers, including esteemed Metal Gear series creator Hideo Kojima, have commented that the difference in power between the PS3 and Xbox 360 is negligible. More recently, Sony Online Entertainment artist Josh Robinson was fired after comments in a blog stated "I've also talked with people on the technical side of the Xbox 360. The consistent comment I am hearing from people on my end is, 'the Xbox 360 is better,' [...] They are saying that it is capable of just doing more."

While the hard facts are still tough to nail down, the general consensus is that the PlayStation 3 is the most powerful of the three next-generation systems, although probably not by as much of a margin as Sony would like us to think. The arguments for the technical strengths of the PS3 go into CPU floating-point capabilities and the difficulties surrounding programming for parallel architectures, but the long and short of it is that whether or not the advantages of the PS3 are apparent will depend on developers' ability to utilize the PlayStation 3's unique architecture

All Right... How Much?

Right now, one of the biggest missing pieces in the PlayStation 3 puzzle is the price tag. In a January article, CNN Money suggested that their analysis pointed to a $499 price tag, which was reached by observing the projected costs of the hardware. In addition, the $499 price tag seemed to mesh with the opinions from a sampling of anonymous developers, who expect it to cost between $399 and $700. And while consoles generally don't stray above the $299 mark (even the Xbox 360 came in a Core version that was only $299), just about everyone seems to agree that this is probably too optimistic. Even Sony Computer Entertainment president Ken Kutaragi has been quoted as saying "It'll be expensive [...] I'm aware that with all these technologies, the PS3 can't be offered at a price that's targeted towards households."

Speculation about the price has kicked into overdrive recently, thanks to a report from analysts at Merrill Lynch that claim the PlayStation 3 could cost upwards of $800-900, and while consoles are often sold at a loss, if this is true Sony would be taking a tremendously huge hit to the pocketbook to sell PS3 systems for $400-500.

Okay, So When?

As previously mentioned, Sony has long maintained that the PlayStation 3 will be released in Spring '06, and this is a target date they still claim to be aiming for, most likely for the console's Japanese release. According to some, the U.S. release seems to be on track for Fall '06, possibly even as early as September. However, these already suspect claims were thrown even more into doubt recently when analysts at Merrill Lynch claimed the PS3 may not be released until 2007, which have now been joined by recent PC Magazine reports raising questions about Sony's ability to meet its schedule when the PS3's final specs have yet to solidify, and these doubts have been echoed by other publications, such as Forbes.com, and The Washington Post, who observe that the uncertainty over the release date could even hurt game companies. This could also turn around and bite gamers, as a rush to meet a reasonable release date may see system shortages (although that's really nothing new, is it?).

In any case, Sony's increasingly unrealistic target release date is starting to make people lose confidence in Sony's ability to have a successful launch for the PlayStation 3, and their refusal to address concerns with anything more than a blunt "we're still on track for a Spring release" isn't doing much to relieve people's worries.

What About Online Functionality?

The big question revolving around Sony's PS3 online strategy is just what they'll do to compete with Microsoft's very successful Xbox Live service. In the eyes of many gamers, Sony dropped the ball when it came to the PS2's online functionality, and with the wildly successful implementation of Xbox Live features in the Xbox 360, it seems certain that Sony is watching this very closely.

It's known that the PS3 will have a far more comprehensive online functionality than the PS2, including a yet-unnamed online service akin to Xbox Live, albeit apparently still continuing the PS2's legacy as an "open platform" (with publishers maintaining their own servers), rather than Microsoft's more hands-on approach. What remains a mystery are the juicy details: Will Sony charge users for a subscription? What should gamers expect to pay? Will players be able to download games a la Xbox Live Arcade (recent rumors say yes)? Even information developers have received seems to be a bit uneven.

Whatever the case may be, Sony is definitely doing its homework - in fact, it's been headhunting people from Microsoft's Xbox Live team. Mike Kavallierou, a director for Sony's networking team, comes from Microsoft and spent two and a half years working on Xbox Live.

What's With the HDD?

While the PlayStation 2 did receive an add-on hard drive, it was supported by very few titles and was prohibitively expensive, and many saw it as a failure. Not to be discouraged, Sony is redoubling their efforts and has made it clear that the hard drive will play a much larger role on the PS3. However, while Sony's drive to correct past mistakes is clear, just what form the hard drive will come in is still unknown.

It's still unknown whether the hard drive will be included with the system, and size estimates range anywhere from 20GB to 200GB. Ken Kutaragi has specifically made mention of 80GB and 120GB sizes, but nothing has been finalized just yet. Recently, questions have been raised as to whether Sony would follow Microsoft's lead and release two versions of the PS3- one with a HDD and one without. However, Sony VP Phil Harrison has said he believes it is unlikely this will happen, although there is still the possibility that people will have the opportunity to upgrade their PS3s later.

The Games: Details on Every PS3 Game Known to Man

With much of the information about the PlayStation 3 so scarce, many people probably don't realize that there are between 100 and 150 titles currently announced for release on the PS3. These games range from big-budget projects by industry leaders, to ambitious projects by upstart development houses, to small-budget parlor games from tiny Japanese developers. Here's a look at what you can expect to see.

Click this Link, this Link, this Link and this Link to view the games.


Chris

mrpayroll, I just took a look at some of those games, and I gotta say I am pretty impressed. Nice assortment of genres and some of those games looked good to great. I can't wait for this thing to hit the market and start getting the competition going. I likely will have to wait due to the price of the ps3 at launch, though some of those games might force me to use a tax return or something if it isn't over $400. Well, that and of course if the games I liked there are not on the 360.

There was a demo running at CES in Jan. It was behind the huge HD PS3 game trailer display. They were running a BR disc showing movie previews on what they calimed was the PS3 system (though they were clear to point out that it WAS just a demonstration.

I would never claim that there's no appreciable difference between DVD and HD-DVD. I'm just saying there's not a HUGE difference. Remember it took several years for DVD to rival VHS and that was with enormous advantages in the DVD format (picture, sound, special features, durability and the ability to buy movies the day they became available for home viewing without a rental window). Compare that to the advantages HD-DVD or BR-DVD has over basic DVD (improved PQ, but not to the same extent as VHS --> DVD). Both formats will sell to the big spenders, the HT geeks and the techies; but for mainstream America to hop onboard, it might take a while. Just ask anybody who bought a SACD or DVD Audio player. :(

The PS3 is being delayed to fall 2006. This is according to a Variety article. I took the part out about the PS3 and will link to the rest of the article. You need a subscription to see it.

"Now, electronics and games can take center stage, although major questions loom at those divisions as well.

Sony's new PlayStation 3 was widely expected to be introduced this spring, but will be delayed as the company fine-tunes the chips that are crucial to the success of the console's Blu-ray function.

The PlayStation 3 --- which is being called "the poor man's Blue-ray" --- is vital to Sony's plans because it plays Blu-ray discs as well as videogames.

Sony will roll out the PS3 by year end, in time for the holidays. If PS3 "delivers what everyone thinks it will, the game is up," Stringer boasts.

Blu-ray is the system developed by Sony to view next-generation high-definition DVDs. Rival format HD DVD is championed by Toshiba. Microsoft recently joined the HD DVD camp, a move that came as its Xbox 360 videogame console is trying to grab market share from PlayStation, the industry leader.

Software makers, electronics firms and Hollywood studios have lined up behind one or the other, or both.

For Sony, the stakes of the rivalry are colossal. The new discs are seen as a way to energize flattening DVD sales. Both the systems also make movies harder to pirate.

Some believe Stringer is betting the company on Blu-ray. The technology is more advanced than HD DVD and would allow the players to incorporate interactive features and others still to be developed. But HD DVD is easier to manufacture and the boxes will be cheaper.

Stringer, and just about every other media exec, studio chief and retailer, fears a Betamax-VHS redux -- a format war that would irritate and confuse consumers. After all, if folks don't know which player to buy, they might walk out empty-handed. "If that happens," one top entertainment exec quips, "I think someone from Wal-Mart is going to take a gun and shoot one of them."

"Once Microsoft picked sides it was clear we were going to be in a battle royale," Stringer says, vowing to protect his turf. "We won't be stampeded" by Microsoft into rushing decisions "that are there forever."

One strange twist in the battle is that Toshiba is working with Sony and IMB to produce the cell chip that's the foundation of Blu-ray -- a topsy-turvy scenario that only serves to underscore the contortions Stringer finds himself performing these days. "One day my enemy is my enemy," he says. "The next day the enemy is my friend.""

http://www.variety.com/article/VR111...goryid=13&cs=1

Fall 06 for Japan(spring 07 for USA) or are they going to attempt a worldwide launch like MS?

As I understand it, this is a bit inaccurate. The Cell is not the "foundation" of Blu-ray in general. Most standalone Blu-ray players will not have or need the Cell. However, the Cell is an integral part of the Blu-ray player in the PS3 because it is going to decode Blu-ray in software only, and that task requires the substantial processing power the Cell reportedly offers.

In general, software video decoding is not as good as hardware decoding, so I wouldn't expect the PS3 to be a top performer in the Blu-ray player arena. However, foregoing an expensive hardware decoder in favor of a "free" software decoder via the Cell (which as the main CPU would be in the PS3 no matter what) should allow Sony to cut down on the cost of the PS3 as compared to standalone Blu-Ray players, though a noticeable level of quality will likely be sacrificed.

BTW, I wonder whether the recent estimates of the manufacturing cost of the PS3 took this into account. If they didn't, those estimates could be off quite a bit.

Toshiba has said they will be making TV's with the cell chip in them.

What is the point of having it in them?

I too wonder about that.

My gut feeling is that they will go for a worldwide release to not miss out on the XMas season in the U.S.

Signal upconversion. More robust menu system. Additional interaction features.

Its a lot power that they can potentially use.

Maybe they'll have it so you can decode 100+ HD feeds at the same time like they did in that Cell demo when PS3 was first shown. Like a visual channel guide or massive PIP functionality.

Ahh I doubt it. Doesn't sound like they'll use it for anything useful or innovative. If they can build some sort of Windows MCE functionality into it, that'd be cool but they'll need more than just the CELL to do that.

Not only that it will add a lot of $$$ to the price of the TV. Just give me a TV that does TRUE 1080p and looks amazing, I don't need it to cook my eggs and make me toast.

Sony will not rest until they dominate both the video game and breakfast preparation industries.