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The Official PS3 Thread
PlayStation 3
Official Specs :: F.A.Q. :: Games :: Links Rules 1. Keep all posts on topic. 2. Do not post comparisions between consoles, we already have a thread for that. 3. No recycled criticisms; we've heard them before, no reason to hear them again. 4. If you are posting a rumor, please label it as such. 5. Follow all rules as set up by Gallent Pig in this thread. This is a work in progress, so if you have any new information, please post it so I can update these top posts. I would like to have the same success as we have in the PSP thread, except with all information at the beginning so newcomers won't have to dig for information. If you have any questions I didn't not answer in the FAQ, please post. Subscribe to this thread |
Official Specs
System Product name: PlayStation 3 CPU Cell Processor PowerPC-base Core @3.2GHz 1 VMX vector unit per core 512KB L2 cache 7 x SPE @3.2GHz 7 x 128b 128 SIMD GPRs 7 x 256KB SRAM for SPE * 1 of 8 SPEs reserved for redundancy total floating point performance: 218 GFLOPS GPU RSX @550MHz 1.8 TFLOPS floating point performance Full HD (up to 1080p) x 2 channels Multi-way programmable parallel floating point shader pipelines Sound Dolby 5.1ch, DTS, LPCM, etc. (Cell- base processing) Memory 256MB XDR Main RAM @3.2GHz 256MB GDDR3 VRAM @700MHz System Bandwidth Main RAM 25.6GB/s VRAM 22.4GB/s RSX 20GB/s (write) + 15GB/s (read) SB< 2.5GB/s (write) + 2.5GB/s (read) System Floating Point Performance 2 TFLOPS Storage Detachable 2.5" HDD slot x 1 I/O USB Front x 4, Rear x 2 (USB2.0) Memory Stick standard/Duo, PRO x 1 SD standard/mini x 1 CompactFlash (Type I, II) x 1 Communication Ethernet (10BASE-T, 100BASE-TX, 1000BASE-T) x 3 (input x 1 + output x 2) Wi-Fi IEEE 802.11 b/g Bluetooth 2.0 (EDR) Controller Bluetooth (up to 7) USB 2.0 (wired) Wi-Fi (PSP) Network (over IP) AV Output Screen size: 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p HDMI: HDMI out x 2 Analog: AV MULTI OUT x 1 Digital audio: DIGITAL OUT (OPTICAL) x 1 Disc Media CD PlayStation CD-ROM, PlayStation 2 CD-ROM, CD-DA, CD-DA (ROM), CD-R, CD-RW, SACD, SACD Hybrid (CD layer), SACD HD, DualDisc, DualDisc (audio side), DualDisc (DVD side) DVD: PlayStation 2 DVD-ROM, PlayStation 3 DVD-ROM, DVD-Video, DVD-ROM, DVD-R, DVD-RW, DVD+R, DVD+RW Blu-ray Disc: PlayStation 3 BD-ROM, BD-Video, BD-ROM, BD-R, BD-RE RSX Code:
RSX Vertex Shader Pixel Shader |
F.A.Q.
Hardware What does it look like? http://image.com.com/gamespot/images..._screen001.jpg Horizontal Back Vertical Top What do the Dev Kits look like? Alpha Beta Final What colors are available? White, Silver, and Black Does it sit vertical or horizontal? Like the PS2, the PS3 can be placed in both the horizontal and vertical positions. What size is it? There are no released specs on the size of the console. Those in attendance at E3 estimate it to be one inch shorter and a few inches deeper than the PS2. Other sources tell us the machine is roughly 320mm x 240mm x 80mm (PS2 was 301mm x 182mm x 78mm). What is the release date? Spring 2006 How much will it cost? Inside sources have revealed that the current plan is to release the console at a price less than 40,000 Yen. This is consistant with the PS2 and PS1 release price of 39,800 Yen. Ken Kutaragi is noted in saying that the PS3 will be "very expensive". It is also important to note that he said similar things about the PS2 before announcing its price. Recently, Sony CEO Howard Stringer confirmed that the PS3 will launch in the US at a price between $300 and $400 - no doubt waiting to see how well the 360 does at the higher price point. Why only 7 cells? The processor has 8 cells, with only 7 cells available to programers. This decision was made in order to increase the production yield of the Cell. The complexity of the processor means that producing a perfect processor (with no defects) is even harder than usual. In order to increase the amount of chips they can use, they will use processors with 7 or 8 usual cells (with the processor using a maximum of 7 cells). All processors with less than 7 cells will not be used in the PS3. What will the Cells be used for? The Cells will be used for specialized process. Some mentioned to be used are physics, animation updates, particle systems, and sound. This will leave general high level coding dedicated to the main processor (PPE). Why not just use more general purpose processors? As specialized processors, Cells can process data much faster than a general purpose processor can. Is the Cell easy to program for? The Cell is an open source chip, meaning that developers big and small have access to the inner workings of the chip. Sony has also provided developers with strong libraries and middleware (like Unreal 3 Engine) to ease development. What kind of middleware will Sony provide to developers? Sony has signed deals to provide the Unreal Engine 3.0 from Epic, the Havok Engine, a physics engine from AGEIA, and has acquired SN Systems to provide system development tools. Sony will provide developers with all these tools, making up some of the most powerful tools in the industry. Only 256MB of system memory? There is 256MB designed specifically for processor use and 256MB designed specifically for GPU use. Both the processor and the GPU can access all 512MB depending on allocation. What is the GPU? The graphics processing unit (GPU) is the RSX which is being designed by nVidia and will be produced by Sony. The current top-of-the-line nVidia processor is the 7800 GTX. The RSX will be slightly faster than the 7800 GTX. Is the RSX going to just be a 7800GTX? No. The RSX will be more powerful than the 7800GTX, and could even be a totally different chip. You can see what it currently looks like here. Why 3 ethernet ports? There is one input and two outputs. The input is to connect an Internet connection. The outputs are to link two PS3s together, or to connect to other Cell devices. Can I use it as my router? This function dropped during the early planning stages in order to cut costs. Will it support WiFi out of the box? PS3 will support 108.11 B/G out of the box. Controllers What does it look like? http://image.com.com/gamespot/images..._screen008.jpg Is that really what it is going to look like? The current design is in the concept stage of developement. It has been stated that the final design may differ from the concept, but only slightly. A good example would be the concept PSP compared to the current PSP design. Can I still use my DualShock Controllers? A DualShock was being used to control the Fight Night 3 demo at E3. It is assumed that you will be able to connect up to 4 DualShock controllers via USB adapter. Is that controller wireless? The controller uses Bluetooth wireless technology. How many controllers can I connect at once? You can connect up to 7 controllers wirelessly. Why 7? Bluetooth has a capacity for 1 master and 7 slaves. Those seven slaves can be controllers or other wireless controllers like a keyboard or mouse. I love me some cables. Can I connect controller that way? The system will support up to 4 controllers connected via the USB ports on the front of the machine. How long will the batteries last in the controller? The current goal is 24 hours of continuous gameplay. Well... what if I need more than 7 controllers? You will be able to connect controllers to the USB ports and use them at the same time as the wireless Bluetooth controllers. With the addition of the PSP as a controller over WiFi, that will give you a total of 14 available controllers, if a game actually calls for such envolvement. Can I use my PSP as a controller? The PSP can be used as a controller on PS3, either locally or remotely over IP. Storage What type of media will games come on? Games will come on Blu-Ray and DVD, depending on the size required by the developer. What is Blu-Ray? Current DVD technology uses red lasers and has a maximum of 4.6GB per layer. Blu-Ray uses blue lasers and has a maximum of 25GB per layer. They are physically identical in size. Do we really need Blu-Ray? For larger games, developers use compression to fit everything on a single disc. This requires the machine to decompress the data before it can use it. Blu-Ray will remove this need as well as increase possibilities for ingame and extra material. Also, games like GT4 use the entire 2-layer disc. If these games are to get larger, they will need more disc space. Can the PS3 support the 100GB Blu-Ray disc? Current specs only call for two layer support (50GB) as the larger disc are still in development stages and are planned for mass storage use only. What speed will Blu-Ray data transfer at? 36Mbps. PS3 is expected to have a 2X Drive, meaning a top transfer rate of 72Mbps. Is there a hard drive? There is slot for a removable 2.5" hard drive, but it has not been decided if a hard drive will be included with the system or not. Current information points to the realization that Sony will most likely not include a hard drive with the system (this has been further supported by Microsofts lack of hard drive as a standard). It has been rumored that the hard drive will come as part of an online pack. Kutaragi mentioned that the standard PS3 HDD will be most likely 80GB. No price point was mentioned. Will anything come on the hard drive? The hard drive may come pre-loaded with a version of Linux for the PS3. Does it support any other Operating System? Sony has confirmed that PS3 will support any Operation System that is ported to it. What type of memory cards will it support? PS3 supports Memory Sticks, SD, and Compact Flash memory cards. These can be used in the same manner as a hard drive to store large amounts of media. There will presumably be a USB adapter to accept both PS1 and PS2 memory cards. Backwards Compatability Can I play my PS2 games on PS3? You will be able to play both PS2 and PS1 games on PS3. How does it work? PS3 does not use emulation. The chips necessary to run PS2 and PS1 games are built into the PS3. PSP Compatability How does the PSP fit into all of this? The PSP can be used to connect to the PS3 locally via WiFi or remotely via IP to control certain aspects of the PSP. The possibilities include sharing saved game data, using the PSP as a controller for the PS3, or playing content from your PS3 on your PSP (nothing has been confirmed). What do you mean "playing content"? As can been seen in this patent filed at the United States Patent Office, Sony has some ideas about allowing users to play games or other content off their PS3 using a PSP, either locally over WiFi or remotely over IP. It has not been cofirmed. Video What resolutions will it support? 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p What is this thing about two HDTVs? The PS3 comes with two HDMI outputs, meaning that you can either set up two HDTVs next to each other to make a 32:9 screen, or use one for gaming and the other for chatting or another task. What if I don't have an HDTV? The PS3 will also support normal composite, component, and S-video outputs. What is the standard encoding for PS3? The standard encoding will be MPEG-4 H.264, the exact same video encoding used by PSP and Apple Quicktime. Online Will there be an online service? Sony announced that they will start the 'PlayStation Network' which will be a centralized server for all online activity (similar to Xbox Live). There were no mentions of what features would be included in this service. How much will it cost? No price was given, but it was mentioned that microtransactions (or pay to play fees) were more accepted in the United States than a subscription fee. It is yet to be seen if this the overall direction Sony takes with its online servce. Can I surf the Internet? The PS3 will more likely than not have software to make it a web browser. SCEA President Kirai mentioned that the software may be bundled with the machine depending on consumer demand for it. Other Will there be a new EyeToy? There will be a new EyeToy developed for the PS3. It is rumored that it will make use of Bluetooth wireless connection and be HD compatable. Can I connect a keyboard and mouse? You will be able to connect a standard USB keyboard and mouse to the PS3. What about LocationFree TV? LocationFree TV is a way to broadcast movies, music, and photos from your TV to a remote device. With the latest firmware update for PSP, they included software to make it a LocationFree device - meaning it can play media from a LocationFree base that is attached to your home theater. It is expected that the PS3 will be able to act as a base, thus allowing you to watch movies, stream music, and view photos directly from your PS3 on a PSP anywhere in the world. |
Games
2 Days to Vegas Screens :: Video Alan Wake Screens :: Video Armored Core 4 Screens :: Video Bladestorm: The 100 Year War Video Dark Sector Video Devil May Cry 4 Screens :: Video Endless Saga Screens :: Video Eyedentify Screens :: Video Fatal Inertia Screens :: Video Fifth Phantom Saga Screens :: Video Fight Night: Round 3 Screens :: Video Formula One Screens :: Video Genji 2 Screens :: Video Confirmed Launch Title Heavenly Sword Screens :: Video I-8 Screens :: Video Killing Day Screens :: Video Killzone 3 Screens :: Video Lair Screens :: Video Current Launch Title Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots Screens :: Video Metronome Screens :: Video Mobile Suit Gundam Screens :: Video Motorstorm Screens :: Video Ni-Oh Screens :: Video Possession Screens :: Video Project Assassin Screens Project Delta Screens Project IM Screens :: Video Project Offset Screens :: Video Resident Evil 5 Screens :: Video Shadowclan Screens :: Video Sonic the Hedgehog Screens :: Video Strangehold Screens :: Video Current Launch Title Tekken Screens :: Video The Darkness Screens :: Video The Embrass of Time Screens The Getaway Screens :: Video The Outsider Screens Thesis Screens :: Video Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell Screens Unreal Tournament 2007 Screens :: Video Current Launch Title Vision GT Screens :: Video Confirmed Launch Title WarDevil Screens :: Video Warhawk Screens :: Video Current Launch Title Other games confirmed/rumored to be in development for PS3 (*confirmed): 211 6Gun II* ActiveDogs* Akari P.J.* Alone in the Dark* Angel Rings* Avalon* BB* Battle Angel Alita Black Blade* Bomberman* Brothers in Arms 3* Castlevania Data-Fly Def Jam 3 Derby Stallion* Dirty Harry Driver 5* FIA World Touring Car Championship Fatal Frame Fear and Respect Final Fantasy* Free Radical Project Future GPX Cyber Formula* Goodnavigate Mystery Adventure* Gradius* Hackberry Pachinko Simulator* Hot Shots Golf 5* (Confirmed Launch Title) Indiana Jones Infraworld* Jikkyou Pawafuru Puro Yakyuu* King of Fighers Maximum Impact 3* LA Noire* Little House in the Plateau Madagascar 2 Mahjong Tournament* Mahjong-oh* Makai Wars* Martial Arts* Master P.J.* Mech-based Action Game* Metal of Honor: Airborne Media Mix Anime Game* Monster Carnival* (Confirmed Launch Title) Naxat Plan* Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest Pro-Mahjong Kiwame Final* Project D* Project New Jersey Project Psychic* Psychopath Rengoku: The End of the Century* Returning Alive Saikyou Ginsei Shogi* Section 8 Sekai Saikyou Ginsei Igo* Shin Megami Tensei* Shinten Makai VI* Shogi World Champion* Silent Hill 5 Slotter Mania* Soulcalibur Spider-man 3* Stuntman* Sunrise Eiyuutan* Super Robot* TMNT 2007 The Aquanaut's Holiday* The Eye of Judgement* (Confirmed Launch Title) The Simpsons Tracer Train Simulator Online* Turok Value 2000 Igo* Value 2000 Shogi* Valkyrie Profile Vampire's Rain Way of the Samurai 3* Winning Eleven Xtreme* Yamasa DigiWorld DX* Untitled Games from PS3 Developers AQ Interactive Title Capcom Action Title Cavia Action-RPG Title CyberFront Puzzle Title CyberFront Simulation Title #1 CyberFront Simulation Title #2 DC Comics MMORPG Dice Project #1* Dice Sweden Project Datam Adventure Title ESP Action Title Eidos Action Title Ertain Action Title Genki Racing Title Genki Samurai Action Title Global A Action Title Global A Simulation Title Gust RPG Title Hamster Management Simulation Hudson Soft RPG Title Interchannel Adventure Irem Action Title Koei Guan Yu Title Konami Action Title Konami RPG Title Marionette War Simulation Marvelous Action Title Media Works Adventure Title Namco RPG Title Namco Shooter Title Namco Sports Title Now Production Action Title Page 44 Studios Hockey Title Rockstar Old West Title SCE London Title Spark Unlimited Title Stuntman Success RPG Title Sunsoft Simulation Title Tecmo Action Title Tecmo Adventure Title Yuke Wrestling Title TGS 2005 Confirmed List Acquire New historical action game, action adventure Arc System Works BB (tentative name), next-generation fighting game tool Artdink Bipedal Movement Simulation, Simulation Aquanote no Kyujitsu: Inner Mind Adventure, Inner Mind adventure Astroll Seikan (tentative name), survival Atari Alone in the Dark sequel, action adventure Stuntman (working title), driving action Driver 5 (working title), driving action Athena Pro Mahjong Final (tentative name), mahjong Atlus Shin Megami Tensei series, RPG Bandai Anime related project, TBA Mobile Suit Gundam (tentative name), action Unnamed robot action game, action Banpresto Super Robot series, TBA Capcom action game, action Devil May Cry 4, stylish action Biohazard 5, survival horror Cavia Unnamed action RPG, action RPG CyberFront simulation game A, growth simulation simulation game B, management simulation puzzle game, puzzle action D3 Publisher Dark Sector, shooting action Fighting action game, fighting action Datam Polystar Unnamed adventure game, adventure Digital Gain Naxat Plan (tentative name), adventure Dorasu Slotter Mania series, Pachinko Eidos Unnamed action game, action Electronic Arts Fight Night (tentative name), sports Enterbrain Derby Stallion (tentative name), breeding Entertainment Software Publishing Unnamed action game, action Ertain TBA, action From Software Armored Core 4, 3D mech action Dark RPG (tentative name), RPG Black Blade (tentative name), action Genki Japanese sword fighting series, action Racing game series, racing game Global A. Entertainment Comical history action, action Comical history stimulation, simulation GoodNavigate Mystery adventure game, adventure Gust Unnamed role playing game, RPG Hackberry Pachinko Jikki simulation series, Pachinko Hamster Management simulation, simulation Hudson Unnamed RPG, RPG Bomberman, action Rengoku: The End of the Century, sci-fi action RPG Idea Factory Shin Ten Makai VI (tentative name), Simulation RPG Interchannel Unnamed love adventure game, adventure Irem Software Engineering Action-adventure game, action adventure Koei Blade Storm: Hundred Years War, action Fatal Inertia, racing Ni-Oh, action Mahjong Taikai (tentative name), table Konami Gradius series, shooting Unnamed soccer game, soccer Jikkyou Powerful Pro Baseball series, sports Unnamed action game, action Unnamed role playing game, RPG Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots, tactical espionage action MTO ActiveDogs (tentative name), action sports Magnolia Value 2000 Igo, table Value 2000 Shougi, table Saikyou Ginsei Shougi 7, table Saikyou Ginsei Igo 7, table Mainichi Communications Shougi World Champion Gekisashi (tentative name), table Marionette War simulation game, simulation Marvelous Interactive Unnamed action game, action Mediaworks Unnamed adventure game, adventure Michaelsoft Project D, RPG Namco Unnamed RPG, RPG Tekken, fighting Time Crisis, shooting Unnamed sports game, sports Nippon-ichi Software Makai Wars (tentative name), RPG Now Production Unnamed action game, action Ongakukan Train Simulator Online (tentative name), train simulation SNK Playmore King of Fighters: Maximum Impact 3 (tentative name), 3D fighting Sega Fifth Phantom Saga, action shooting Sonic the Hedgehog, action Sony Computer Entertainment Angel Rings (tentative name), RPG Gran Turismo series, TBA Genji 2 (tentative name), action The Eye of Judgment (tentative name), TBA Minna no Golf 5 (tentative name), sports Monster Carnival (tentative name), action RPG Spike Way of the Samurai 3 (tentative name), action adventure Square Enix Final Fantasy series, TBA Success Hitsuji Mura (tentative name), simulation RPG, RPG Sun Denshi Unnamed simulation game, simulation Sunrise Interactive Sunrise Eiyuutan series, 3D simulation RPG Shinseiki GPX Cyber Formula series, 3D racing Taito Extreme (tentative name), action Project Psychic (tentative name), action Takuyo Kyougyou AKARI Project (tentative name), simulation MASTER Project (tentative name), action RPG Tecmo Action game, action Action-adventure game, action Ubisoft Killing Day (Japanese title: Assassin), action adventure Brothers in Arms 3 (tentative name), FPS Warashi Mahjong Oh, Mahjong Yamasa Entertainment Yamasa Digi World DX (tentative name), Pachinko Yuke's Pro wrestling game, pro wrestling Incompatible Games This list is based on speculation only. A true list will be generated closer to launch. PlayStation 102 Dalmatians: Puppies to the Rescue Akuji: The Heartless Barbie: Race and Ride Broken Helix Bubsy 3D Driver Gundam Battle Assault Hive, The Hooters: Road Trip In Cold Blood Jampack Vol. 2 Land Before Time: Great Valley Racing Adventure Lunar 2: Eternal Blue Complete NFL Xtreme NHL 2000 NHL 2001 NHL Blades of Steel 2000 NHL Rock the Rink Nuclear Strike One PO'ed Powerboat Racing (VR Sports) Rascal Rush Down Sentient Speed Punks Super Puzzle Fighter 2 Turbo Syphon Filter 2 Syphon Filter 3 UFC: Ultimate Fighting Championship Worms PlayStation 2 ATV Offroad Fury 3 Big Mutha Truckers Big Mutha Truckers 2 ESPN NBA 2K5 Everquest® Online Adventures: Frontiers F1 2001 F1 2002 Fight Night Round 2 Ghost Recon: Jungle Storm (Tom Clancy's) Major League Baseball 2K5 (ESPN) SRS: Street Racing Syndicate Tiger Woods PGA Tour 2005 Tomorrow Never Dies (007) |
Links
Awards Game Critics Awards: E3 3005 Best Hardware/Peripheral (PS3) Special Commendation for Graphics (Killzone 2) DVDTalk The Xbox 360 Compendium The One and Only HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray Thread News IGN GameSpot Official PlayStation.com Cell Technical Papers Press Releases E3 Announcement Technical Introducing the Cell - Part I (arstechnica) Introducing the Cell - Part II (arstechnica) ISSCC 2005: The Cell Microprocessor (realworldtech) The Cell Revisited (realworldtech) E3 PS3 Coverage (Anandtech) Understanding the Cell Processor (Anandtech) A Hardware Discussion (Anandtech) Mirror Examples of Poor CPU Performance (Anandtech) Mirror |
PlayStation 3 to appear at Taipei Game Show
A quarter of Sony's booth will be devoted to showing off the PS3, but will it be anything gamers haven't seen before? Sony will be giving the PlayStation 3 a public appearance at the Taipei Game Show 2006, February 16-20. According to the Chinese-language Commercial Times, a quarter of Sony's exhibit space at the show will be devoted exclusively to the PS3. Since Sony announced the PS3, the console has become the gamers' white rabbit. When the system was unveiled at last year's Electronics Entertainment Expo, it did so accompanied by a trailer reel of games in development for the system, including new Killzone and Tekken titles. Months later at Tokyo Game Show 2005, hopes of playable PS3 demos were dashed, but attendees were treated to a handful of new game trailers, most notably Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots. It hasn't been disclosed whether Sony is planning something similar with the Taipei Game Show, or if the console will finally appear in a playable form. Sony's appearance at "the other TGS" comes just one month before Microsoft launches its Xbox 360 in Taiwan on March 16. Link to Story on Gamespot |
Psssst! joshd, is that really you?
joshd = kenage kenage = joshd -other- |
http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3146659
For those that don't want to click the link, here are the confirmed first Blu-Ray movie titles: Sony Pictures Home Entertainment will deliver The Fifth Element, Bram Stoker's Dracula, Desperado, For a Few Dollars More, The Guns of Navarone, Hitch, House of Flying Daggers, A Knight's Tale, Kung Fu Hustle, The Last Waltz, Legends of the Fall, Resident Evil Apocalypse, RoboCop, Sense and Sensibility, Stealth, Species, SWAT and XXX. Both Black Hawk Down and The Bridge on the River Kwai will be released on on 50 GB, dual-layer discs in the summer. Paramount Pictures Home Entertainment brings Four Brothers, Sahara, Aeon Flux, Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow, The Italian Job, Tomb Raider, U2: Rattle and Hum, Sleepy Hollow, We Were Soldiers and The Manchurian Candidate to the table, though these titles will also appear on the competing HD-DVD format. Paramount will also release the upcoming Mission: Impossible III and the original two movies on the formats. Twentieth Century Fox Home Entertainment's movies include Fantastic Four, The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, Behind Enemy Lines, Kiss of the Dragon and Ice Age, but will announce more soon, totaling 20 films. Liongate's slate includes Lord of War, The Punisher, The Devil's Rejects, Saw, T2: Judgment Day, Reservoir Dogs, Total Recall, Dune, Rambo: First Blood and the upcoming See No Evil. |
Originally Posted by Suprmallet
http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3146659
For those that don't want to click the link, here are the confirmed first Blu-Ray movie titles: Sony Pictures Home Entertainment will deliver The Fifth Element, Bram Stoker's Dracula, Desperado, For a Few Dollars More, The Guns of Navarone, Hitch, House of Flying Daggers, A Knight's Tale, Kung Fu Hustle, The Last Waltz, Legends of the Fall, Resident Evil Apocalypse, RoboCop, Sense and Sensibility, Stealth, Species, SWAT and XXX. Both Black Hawk Down and The Bridge on the River Kwai will be released on on 50 GB, dual-layer discs in the summer. Paramount Pictures Home Entertainment brings Four Brothers, Sahara, Aeon Flux, Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow, The Italian Job, Tomb Raider, U2: Rattle and Hum, Sleepy Hollow, We Were Soldiers and The Manchurian Candidate to the table, though these titles will also appear on the competing HD-DVD format. Paramount will also release the upcoming Mission: Impossible III and the original two movies on the formats. Twentieth Century Fox Home Entertainment's movies include Fantastic Four, The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, Behind Enemy Lines, Kiss of the Dragon and Ice Age, but will announce more soon, totaling 20 films. Liongate's slate includes Lord of War, The Punisher, The Devil's Rejects, Saw, T2: Judgment Day, Reservoir Dogs, Total Recall, Dune, Rambo: First Blood and the upcoming See No Evil. |
Um...For A Few Dollars More, Devil's Rejects, First Blood, T2, Desperado, The Guns of Navarone, The Fifth Element, Robocop, and Bridge On The River Kwai, don't constitute "coming out swinging"? Also, you know that there will be Spider-Man and Spider-Man 2 blu-rays to coincide with the theatrical release of Spider-Man 3.
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Originally Posted by Suprmallet
Um...For A Few Dollars More, Devil's Rejects, First Blood, T2, Desperado, The Guns of Navarone, The Fifth Element, Robocop, and Bridge On The River Kwai, don't constitute "coming out swinging"? Also, you know that there will be Spider-Man and Spider-Man 2 blu-rays to coincide with the theatrical release of Spider-Man 3.
IMO it is a poor effort. While there will be a few people who will open their wallets and replace their DVD versions with HD DVDs or Blu Ray discs, the biggest sellers are going to be newer releases at this point. Many of the early adopters have already bought those movies, sometimes two or three times already on DVD. Also, you do know that Spider-Man 3 is being release in 2007, that's way off in the distance. |
Sony has also said that they might bundle Blue Ray movies with UMD movies for a few bucks more. That is nice to have if you do have a PSP so you can take your movies anywhere you go.
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2007 is not all that far off. And if anyone thinks For A Few Dollars More is a poor effort, then that's just sad.
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Originally Posted by Suprmallet
2007 is not all that far off. And if anyone thinks For A Few Dollars More is a poor effort, then that's just sad.
And don't call me sad. :) |
Originally Posted by Centurion
Psssst! joshd, is that really you?
joshd = kenage kenage = joshd -other- In PS3 news, there is now a rumor of a hard drive being included (Business Week article said it would - curious) and a working PS3 at TGS this month (Taipei, not Toyko). Also, Sony announced they have linked a deal in Korea (who happens to be the most online country in the world) to support Sony Online. Exciting stuff. |
Exclusive Hands on with the PS3 Dev Kit: http://games.kikizo.com/news/200602/065_p1.asp
Limited 1080p! :wtf: Exclusive: Hands-On with PlayStation 3 Kikizo presents a detailed, early account of its first-hand experience with a little known console called PS3. Is it looking like a new generational leap, or emotion engine tears? We have some answers. Nearly twelve years since Sony entered the gaming space, PlayStation's legacy remains untouchable and its leadership barely challenged. But the industry has never seen one company stay on top this long, and a reorganised Sony is surely hoping it won't be third time unlucky for PlayStation 3. But Sony's silence - deafening ever since the legendary unveiling at Sony Pictures Studios last May - is raising more questions every day. We haven't much of a clue when the next concrete news on PlayStation 3 will turn up - we know it has to be soon, but analysts and gamers alike are seriously beginning to question the machine's ballsy 'Spring' launch date - not to mention its potential, ever since it transpired that the better proportion of its E3 trailers were not the performance indicator we wanted to believe. And that's putting it politely. Now, we are thrilled to provide at least some form of update for anxious gamers - a behind-the-scenes look at PlayStation 3 with a controller in our hands, leaving no doubt as to the realtime authenticity of what we see on the screen. Last month Sony shipped final development PS3 hardware to many developers - albeit a month behind the latest schedule - and Kikizo has been able to sneak in some time at not just one, but three PS3 developers in multiple territories - one very prominent, and boasting some of the strongest experience working on PlayStation 3 in the world to date. Naturally, the hardware is not completely final (but pretty damn close), and as you can imagine, all of our access was utterly privileged on condition of complete anonymity for those who helped us get on the inside. We're not supposed to be shown anything on the format, and software we have played is nowhere near final. Disappointingly we can't mention any games or be specific about any game scenarios whatsoever. But we can tell you everything else about our first, intimate experience of getting our hands on PS3, and offer our educated guesses about the larger implications of what it all means and where things might be going next, resulting in what we believe is the first public PS3 hands-on report of its kind. Firstly however, the box. The stylish PlayStation 3 casing design that SCEI boss Ken Kutaragi revealed last year is, and always has been, empty - and no signs of a final, tangible casing solution appear to be in sight. "I think to fit everything that Sony wants in there AND leave space for a 2.5 inch hard drive," explains one senior developer working on a final kit, who will be our guide for much of this report, "the machine would have to grow. The models they're showing off are way too small for what they want." Integrated into an imposing tower set-up, the PS3 development kit is playable using pretty much any standard USB controller, but developers are designing games with the familiar DualShock 2 controls in mind. PS3 controller specifics are "nothing we need to be concerned about as developers," explains the techie. So we have a USB controller plugged into a machine and we're playing a game off a hard disc with not a trace of BluRay technology evident in the building. "PS3 isn't going to have writing capabilities and for us that's of no concern right now. Our stuff runs off a Hard Disc at the moment and won't exceed DVD capabilities; we're programming the game as if it will be written for a 10-speed DVD drive. Anything less would affect load time." So far the experience isn't exactly the cosy Sony living room vision with an attractive box and a restyled, quick-response Bluetooth wireless controller. It might not be how PS3 is intended for any gamer - but shall we turn it on and give a chance first? Yes. I think we should. RSX on a First Date PS3's RSX graphics chip, dubbed "Reality Synthesiser" - a buzzword not tactically dissimilar from the "Emotion Engine" moniker given to PS2 - is based on Nvidia's cutting-edge Next Gen architecture, and allegedly twice as powerful as its GeForce 6800 Ultra. The goal announced back in May was to fully harness the mythical power and bandwidth available from the Cell processor, to use RSX's crazy multi-way shader pipelines and 128-bit pixel precision, and try to reach movie-quality visuals. Nvidia practically invented this shader stuff, so it's got to be straightforward from here. We expect the visual quality and vivid realism you get from pre-rendered special effects in movies, right now, in realtime on PS3, because that's what has been promised. Now that we've played it, have they reached that goal? Really reached it? The short answer is no, of course not - but it's not an ugly picture by any means. As game technology moves on, so does CG animation, and it seems the former might never catch up with the latter. Our developer offers his view: "We will never reach [up-to-date] Pixar-quality visuals at 1080p, sixty frames per second [in games]. Realtime graphics [technology development] moves fast, but so does CG - you just can't compare realtime games with things that takes a team of 200 people working on render farms for 18 months to make a bunch of stills for a 90 minute movie. If you look at the first animation movie Pixar did, it's stuff that a demo coder could now make with little effort in realtime on a Nintendo 64 or even a PS1." The Enemy of Graphics Perhaps the biggest bombshell we've learned in the world of PS3 development right now is that many (if not most) games are simply running in 720p - not the ambitious, bleeding edge 1080p "Full HD" standard that Sony had us so excited about. And certainly, not two of them stuck together for a ludicrous 32:9 double-1080p. Nvidia was on the money with its President's comments last May: resolution is indeed the enemy of graphics. Our insider explains: "Sony wanted 1080p, but we're working at 720p and 1080i, same as on the Xbox 360. Even with [final hardware] in mind, reaching good frame rates at 1080p with next-gen graphics is almost impossible. Instead many developers, ourselves included, are reworking so they run at 720p. PS3's output takes care of upscaling it - so no native 1080p, but it still looks killer." Perhaps there was always a specific reason why Sony felt it should say "up to 1080p"? But the vast majority of PS3 gamers may not see this apparent hiccup as an issue; the tiny (projected) proportion of players lucky enough to own Full HD 1080p sets will see little difference; both 720p and 1080i are already visually stunning, and PS3 competently upscales. Even if it couldn't, most 1080p screens will supposedly upscale pretty well by themselves. Some developers even see this situation as a positive one: "It's not going to be a big deal for players, but it helps conserve CPU cycles so it's certainly a big deal to us." So is the 1080p dream lost? It's hard to say for sure, but the developer suggests some games will still support it. "I think native 1080p games will be in the minority. Getting the best effects and performance is easier at lower resolution, so we can offer the gamers more thrills. I don't think this situation will change much." Blue Sky in Games Remember the demo where Cell combined satellite images with landscape maps to produce awesome Google Earth-on-steroids scenes at hi-def 60fps? In our first hands-on we're moving in a PS3 game world that's a far cry from the "internal sphere" technique for skies and clouds in past-generation games. A stunning real world we're looking at - this time using RSX meat unlike Phil Harrison's demo nine months ago - gave us some clues about how the experience of freedom in a series like GTA could be enhanced in ways we've just not seen before - not with this sort of impact - and that's before any social simulation and AI is thrown in. Particularly from a first-person or camera-only explorative view, everything from looking at natural, detailed, muddy floor to being in the shade of a tree, feels a bit closer to the being-there experience gamers dream of. A peaceful early morning sunlight scatters through leaves and floods over the darkened branches, softly rendered shadow traces all the way down to a canvas where grains of earth are visible, while dynamic range lets our eyes see it all in accurate contrast together - it's beautiful, almost like they promised this sort of scene would be - and it seems those 100 billion programmable shaders per second are being put to good use. It really is all about dynamic range and surfaces when it comes to realistic game images. We've now seen increasingly sophisticated effects on other high end platforms like Xbox 360 and Lindbergh, and PS3 is cramming all of it into its hardware convincingly. When on-screen action starts to move faster - much faster - later in the level, is when things feel properly impressive. If only the machine could generate a cool passing breeze in the room, this would be totally the real deal, and hell, you can always pick up the recently announced Phillips amBX technology and see if that works for it. We weren't using the biggest HD display in the world during the session either, but bigger screens feel more immersive, and so with these things combined it could be frighteningly involving stuff. There were some pretty noticeable environmental glitches but for the purpose of the report they should be ignored in the same way as obvious early glitches in any preview game code or E3 build. Regardless of the harsh errors though, the depth-of-field optical filtering, astounding texture quality, convincing material movement, and later in a sequence, heat distortion and complex fire-based effects all shine through - and still offer a satisfying wow factor. Stick a Broom Up My HDMI... And this is a key point; while it's clearly struggling to achieve Full HD without heavy compromises, something that PS3 does better than Xbox 360, most straightforwardly, is 'more stuff simultaneously'. An impressive list of simultaneous, wonderfully shaded, dynamic visual effects was evident, but PS3 was also able to throw around tonnes of geometry in terms of realtime 'explosion' calculation - and convincingly affect dozens of objects all at the same time. The development source concurs: "Unlike Xbox and PS2, where Xbox had a host of built-in effects that were a generation ahead of PS2, the Xbox 360 and PS3 are same-generation machines. One doesn't have additional effects over the other - 360 can do the same effects, just not as many of them simultaneously and with less geometry [because of the speed difference], but memory bottlenecks can kill part of the PS3 speed advantage anyway... the overall visual difference it makes will depend a lot on the developer's skill, and how much time and money the publisher spends on a game." The hands-on evidence is beginning to mount up. We're talking about a machine barely superior to Xbox 360 - not by any significant margin. It's certainly obvious this machine is not "twice" as powerful as 360, let alone a generational leap ahead. But the gap could become bigger: "Realistically, as libraries and experience with both machines grow, I think the PS3 will start showing things the 360 will choke at," offers the source. "But Sony will have to make available to us libraries and new routines for that to happen - something they've been severely lacking at so far." Some developers are finding other ways to get the most out of things, though. For example, a middleware application called SpeedTree effortlessly creates lifelike 3D trees with fully detailed branches and leaves, although it's nothing bleeding-edge anymore: "We're not using SpeedTree at the moment, but it's something that can already be seen in Project Gotham 3, so why don't you go play that instead of asking me stupid questions?" our flustered source barks. "Programmable shaders need huge power... the increase in power means that skilled artists become more important; games will look incredible thanks to the skilled artists." Sure, there's still some framerate optimisation to go in this particular game build, but generally, framerate shouldn't be an issue for long. SCEI's Masa Chatani describes PS3 architecture as elegantly simple with outstanding performance, and developers say they love the streamlined Open GL environment. But our guide adds: "Cell is weird and difficult to work with... coding has progressed with high speeds and paper specs in mind, it's one of the reasons framerate specs aren't met yet. We've been anti-aliasing through software which also means a performance hit, although the 720p upscaling minimises that problem a bit." Cell is technically capable of more sophisticated volumetric physics, and while there were some decent highlights during our playtime in this regard, we haven't exactly played anything that made us gasp in the same way as Half-Life 2's physics, and we've not yet seen anything to illustrate how the increased power could potentially be used to improve a gameplay scenario in any significant way yet. That's not to say that someone, somewhere, has not already thought of creative new ways to do just that. "Everything will continue to depend on developers," it's pointed out. "Some things that weren't possible before are now possible, and some previous ideas can now be made into games." And of course, there are many other original applications for Cell's power as it becomes more flatteringly unlocked - high definition IP webcams is just one example that keeps us excited. Ain't Got Nothin' But Real Time One memorable point in another game build altogether observed some intense character based interactivity. Finally being able to control on a PS3 the sort of visual quality we realistically expect, with convincing and varied human facial expression, did feel like a moment of relief - this stuff is realtime after all. We had lighting effects and specular highlights used to great effect, shadows forming realistically on wrinkles of skin, precise colours, ultra-detailed rippling materials (though the ripple needed some work) - and that's not even talking about the surrounding environment, which had its own moving objects and particle elements. As far as "emotionally believable" experiences go, this moment was more solid than we've experienced in a past generation title. It was nothing we couldn't imagine running to the same sort of effect on Xbox 360, but it was reassuring to see it in genuine realtime and with some developer perseverance, a few required improvements seem within reach. Later, one non-interactive (but, based on playable sections that followed, clearly realtime) cut-scene also demonstrated exceptional draw distance (think perhaps Great Wall of China in terms of its setting - distance, geometry, texture variation) that 'felt' next generation - like a feeling of legitimacy, of confirmation, that we've only occasionally felt towards the new generation so far. We were also hoping to see some water and maybe take a swim or something, to see if water looked as amazing on real hardware as we've previously seen in the TGS trailer of WarHawk for example, but we'll have to wait a bit longer. Another thing we've not been able to see on real hardware is hair: with increased speed, there's a likelihood PS3 will be able to handle free-flowing hair with the authenticity seen in Nvidia's impressive "Luna" demonstration. With Xbox 360's Dead or Alive 4 fresh in memory, one graphical element in the Team Ninja game that stood out as disappointing was the long-haired characters; their hair just crumpled around in blocks unrealistically and clipped into shoulders and clothing - frankly we've seen better hair coded on past-gen systems. So wavy hair is still something we want to see on a real PS3. Come to think of it, we want girls to look like exactly like Luna. Generally speaking we're playing stuff that easily has potential to offer realism and believability, but again for the sake of detail, it was marred by early glitches and offered something of a grating experience. If we looked past this, then our PS3 virginity-busting experience pretty much had us convinced for now - and now that our early gameplay craving is satisfied, we're dying to see more complete products coming together and seeing them as they're intended. I Want to Believe Everyone knows that the Killzone trailer was rendered to reflect what the developer thought they might be able to achieve on PS3 architecture, but some of Sony's most talented studios will be questioning the ambition they showed nine months ago. In hindsight, there was some stuff that looked decidedly more like what we've been playing now - UbiSoft's Killing Day seeming like it was a good, honest estimate. Rewatch that below, and consider this is comparable to the technical visual quality of what we've played, and you'll likely conclude that this is, for now at least, really same-generation stuff next to Xbox 360. We'd previously seen PlayStation 3 in "realtime" action in three demonstrations - the stunning Metal Gear Solid 4 trailer taken into a simulation to show off game engine and graphics, Sonic the Hedgehog's realtime demo at TGS, and also a realtime demo of Sega's Fifth Phantom Saga, also at TGS (all available to watch below). Based on what we've now played for ourselves, we can answer a question we all asked back at E3 2005. Does PS3 really look like the Killzone trailer? No way. Does it look like Metal Gear Solid 4? Sure, near enough, although now that it's on near-final hardware, things just need a little polishing to look as complete as what was shown by Kojima-san in September. What we played was still extremely early, but we've been able to build a healthier picture of things. Another point of reference is the aforementioned Fifth Phantom Saga realtime demo from TGS, which we daresay is a slightly more honest representation of today's exact PS3 graphics status, and closer to current playable content than anything fuelling PS3's notoriety since E3 last year. The difference in physics, detail and scene complexity between the Killzone or MotorStorm trailers and MGS4's realtime demo is quite severely obvious, and it's now abundantly clear to us that everyone's early PS3 gaming experiences will be a whole lot more like the latter, but that's not exactly a bad thing. We'll have dynamic range and depth of field optics, maybe even a 'solid' sixty frames. But MGS4 stands on its own as the single most impressive thing anyone has seen on a sufficiently convincingly box to date. Based on what we've seen and played, launch software will look like nice Xbox 360 material - Dead or Alive 4, Gears of War. The main issue now is when is this "launch" actually going to happen? Based on this evidence, things aren't exactly rocketing ahead, and we wouldn't be the first to question the potential of some kind of delays. Our developer is first to chip in: "We think that in Japan it will most likely release during Summer, Q4 in the US, and Europe in Winter or Spring 2007 - these are our internal projections." And right now, it seems most observers would agree. But Spring could mean as late as late June, which is pretty much Summer. Some, including the folks at next-gen.biz, have pondered whether Sony's recently appointed British CEO might change traditional strategy and focus an initial launch in America, where it's argued that the most vital battle PS3 will be fought - BluRay's battle. But the other school of thought suggests that Howard Stringer would need to have been running the show a bit longer to reasonably affect significant plans for the company's most important project, relatively late in the day. But then, nobody seems to know for sure yet. The cost of a final PlayStation 3 is the other issue, and some are remaining hopeful, considering PSP launched well below its projected price thanks to publisher pressure on Sony. Could it be a similar story with PlayStation 3? Sony could do well to absorb some creator investment costs, but BluRay's success against HD-DVD is more vital to Sony, particularly compared to its relatively insignificant aspirations for UMD. Yet, the sheer scale and cost of PS3 is surely looking like an increasing problem for some creators, as many had predicted. Having more power is great, but the real challenge is going to be filling 25-50GB with material that's as convincing as it is compelling. Reaching anywhere near MGS4 standards - let alone impossible Killzone standards - is still going to be tough for everyone but the most elite developers, and achieving photo-realistic scenes is as much about committed creators as raw power. Nonetheless, Sony has already sewn up the developer support it needs more effectively than Microsoft has been able to, with Edge reporting that one publisher for example is committing 50 per cent of resources to PS3, 30 per cent to Xbox 360, and 20 per cent to Revolution - so on a needs-must basis it could be a traditional territory roll out after all. If only some early hands-on time could also answer questions about date and price, we'd be much happier. Marks Out of Ten Sony's showings of PS3 to date have been seriously sexy. But the reality, while still impressive, is nowhere near the leap beyond Xbox 360 Sony wants you to believe, and it seems many projects are still at an early enough stage for things to start getting a little worrying. We don't have much idea why Sony has been so quiet about PS3 lately, but in light of today's manufacturing and development status, one theory is that it's simply having a bit of an internal think about how best to proceed, and of course, how best to communicate their strategy to the industry and gamers, without taking the slightest PR setback in the process. In fact, considering Sony, they'd be more likely to turn it all around back into massive excitement all over again. Based on what we've played versus the hype of the last year, it's impossible not to be slightly disappointed, yet we're still hugely excited and most of all, relieved that all the claims, confusion and debate now make more sense. We can't wait to get more of PlayStation 3 to draw some more specific conclusions, so we'll see you for more hands-on with final, cased hardware (and presumably a final controller) in surely not much longer than a couple of months' time. And, if ours (and many industry) estimates are accurate, then maybe everyone will need to mark 'summer' on the calendar as the time to get sued for importing their final Japanese PS3. The Future Is Almost Here... and even in 720p, it looks bright. |
Originally Posted by Binger
Dude, were talking about the launch lineup, 2007 is a long friggin time from now. Yes, I think launching a new product like this without new release support is a mistake. Most of us already own those titles. Most of us have bought them more than once on DVD in various incarnations. There are probably quite a few who will buy them once again. But, I will not change my opinion that giving us the same movies that we have bought over and over again to entice people to buy a new format is weak.
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Originally Posted by Binger
Doesn't look like anyone is coming out swinging with their releases so far. HD DVD looks to have a few more new releases slated at this point.
I've debunked that notion more times than I care to remember. See here: http://forum.dvdtalk.com/showthread.php?t=452801 Total titles = 87 Available in BD only = 43 Available in HD DVD only = 19 Available in both = 25 Total available in BD = 43 + 25 = 68 Total available in HD DVD = 19 + 25 = 44 Hence, A buyer of a player, at launch, will have access to: Buyer of a Blu-ray player: 68/87 = 78% of all launch titles Buyer of an HD DVD player: 44/87 = 50% of all launch titles |
Nice article Flay.
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Originally Posted by Flay
Exclusive Hands on with the PS3 Dev Kit: http://games.kikizo.com/news/200602/065_p1.asp
Limited 1080p! :wtf: I have to say that this is a quite reassuring article. Sony's hardware strength has always been its ability to evolve (name a first generation PS2 game that looks anywhere close to MGS4 - or a first generation PS1 game that can compare to Tekken 3). As long as they set a good platform (which the article conveys they did), they have much room to grow. |
Originally Posted by Suprmallet
Blu-Ray isn't going to take off all at once. Not everyone has an HDTV yet. The format is not going to live or die in its first year. It's going to start off slowly, and then grow bigger. Besides, these first titles won't even be the top of what blu-ray can do. Your dissapointment fails to take the bigger picture into account.
Hey man, let it go. I'm entitled to my opinion, you to yours. I am fully aware of the "bigger picture" as you put it. I have been following Blu Ray and HD DVD for quite a long time. I, personally, would prefer Blu Ray to win over HD DVD. I also believe that, in order for either format to succeed, they are going to have to win converts quickly. This is a format war, plain and simple. In order for one side to win they have to offer people a reason to buy thier product over their competitor. I am fully aware that there will be future product support with new titles and day and date releases. But, and this is the last time I will say this, IMO if you want to get the public "wet" when you release a new product, you have to come out blazing. I don't think that titles that a good portion of the public, espeically those likely to be early adopters, already own (again how many just on this forum bought T2 more than once on DVD) are the best choice. I respect that you have your opinion and I would hope that you can respect that I have mine. Let's agree to disagree and move on. This thread is about the PS3, not about an argument over the Blu Ray format and marketing decisions. I made one comment earlier about the fact that I was not impressed with their launch titles and we have been going back and forth since. How about we let it go? |
Originally Posted by Grubert
Oh dear God, not again...
I've debunked that notion more times than I care to remember. See here: http://forum.dvdtalk.com/showthread.php?t=452801 Total titles = 87 Available in BD only = 43 Available in HD DVD only = 19 Available in both = 25 Total available in BD = 43 + 25 = 68 Total available in HD DVD = 19 + 25 = 44 Hence, A buyer of a player, at launch, will have access to: Buyer of a Blu-ray player: 68/87 = 78% of all launch titles Buyer of an HD DVD player: 44/87 = 50% of all launch titles I am not advocating HD DVD. Personally, I support Blu Ray. My comments in this tread are simply my opinion that the launch titles announced so far are weak. I think it's alright for me to support a product and still be dissapointed with their early offerings. |
That's very well, but not adding "HD DVD looks to have a few more new releases slated at this point". Which is wrong, as I proved.
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Not to mention that the very fact that the PS3 will play blu-ray discs for its video games means that Blu-Ray has a significant leg up in this format war that will help overcome what Binger thinks are "weak" releases.
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Originally Posted by Grubert
That's very well, but not adding "HD DVD looks to have a few more new releases slated at this point". Which is wrong, as I proved.
You have proved nothing. Maybe you misunderstand the definition of a new release vs a catalog release. I am in no way talking about the quantity of releases, I am talking about current films (again not catalog titles) that will better help to sell J6P, who like it or not is going to determine the outcome of which format is the standard. Let's all get back on topic, shall we. |
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