PixyJunket

Yes, no game will need space over standard DVD media for quite some time.

mrpayroll

http://xbox.ign.com/articles/607/607265p2.html



Using the size of the disc drive as a constant (every DVD drive is the same size) we were able to estimate the size of the Xbox 360 compared to the older system. The black Xbox is approximately 12 and 3/4 inches across and 3 1/2 inches high. The Xbox 360 appears to be about 10 and 1/4 inches across and about 3 and 1/4 inches high on the sides. At the slimest point in the center of the system it only measures about 2 and 1/2 inches high.

Chris

PixyJunket

I still can't help but think that that picture is a fake.

Look at the shading and the big green.. "thing". It looks pre-rendered.

joshd2012

I think we can all agree that this picture was rendered. But if MS chose this rendering to be the final design, then that would be the Xbox 360.

DVDChris

It looks pretty real to me.

DamingR

The part that looks fake is the font on the DVD drive. No way that's final production. I think (as IGN suggested) that this is a MS render of the proposed final product.

Rob V

My dork $0.02: I don't think it's pre-rendered. This fit & finish around the drive and the oblong cutout to the right are inconsistent - just like they would be on a manufactured product. If it was pre-rendered, I'd expect all the gaps to look perfect.

Josh H

To be fair, those aren't cases like with the X-box or PS2 where the drives die and have to be replaced. That was just a limitation of cartridge based systems.

The contacts in the system and the game carts had to be kept clean and free of dust or they would't work.

But still a quick cleaning and they're good as new, so it's an apples and oranges comparison.

PixyJunket

Ah!! Thank you for posting that. Josh is too right, any problems with the original NES were probably dirty cartridges and blowing into either the cartridge or system just makes it worse. You can't scratch the shit out of a CD and then blame the Playstation hardware for not being able to read it.

I think the true test of the Nintendo hardware myth will be how well the Gamecube holds up over the years. Problematic game systems really became common at the inclusion of disc-based drives. I've got a Sega X'Eye that can't read CDs worth a damn (after I spent so much time bribing my friend to give it to me, sigh), and I'm on a TG16/PC-Engine mailing list where CD system problems and repair topics are pretty common, so it's not like the Playstation was the first system to show frequent hardware problems (it was just the most up front).

SteelgearX

Have any of you finished Ninja Gaiden on Xbox? That's hardcore.

SteelgearX

Believe it or not, developers are still having to leave stuff out of their games due to space limitations. Blu-ray and HD-DVD (to a lesser extent) will make it possible for developers to pretty much put anything they want into their games. Also, more space is needed for bigger textures and other such things for next-gen games to look good. Sound will no longer be compromised either, so hopefully we'll get games supporting true 5.1 surround and (ghasp!) DTS tracks. Overall, more is better. Bigger is always better... don't let that nice girl across the street fool you.

And BTW... (gotta find a server for this)... N1NT3ND0 4EVER B1TCH3S!!!

Michael Corvin

I doubt it. Most likely it will lead to lazy programming and less compression. The only ones I see using it are the games that are 80% cut-scenes and 20% game, like the FF series.

PixyJunket

Links to examples?

PixyJunket

But even then, most cut-scenes are no longer pre-rendered video files that would require tons of space, most are done in-game now. I'd really love to see an example of a developer that was limited on the current media in any way that did not involve massive amounts of raw, uncompressed audio or hours of pre-rendered video footage.

fujishig

Exactly. It seems that developers don't put things in games because they run out of time.

Unless we're talking about features that were just too advanced for the hardware, like an insane amount of textures or something that brought gameplay to a crawl. otherwise, I doubt space is a consideration... as you can always just have two disks, right?

joshd2012

I've done this before, but I'll do it again for those who care:

DTS 96/24 = 1.536Mbit/s = 0.192 MB/s
1 hour = 60 min = 3600 sec
3600s x 0.192MB/s = 691.2 MB

So for every hour of music a game has, there is required nearly 700 MB of data storage. That is equal to one CD. So figure that games like GTA: Vice City soundtrack was 7 CDs, that is almost 5 Gigs for just music. I'm thinking this space can be used.

Josh H

Bah, I generally dislike real music in games.

Mainly because I dislike games set in the real world. I like "escaping" to a fantasy setting when gaming to take a break from the real world.

I guess composed music could still be done in DTS or whatever, but that's not a huge deal to me.

I'd like to see DTS and/or DD5.1 just used more effectively for gameplay purposes. Halo is a great example where the 5.1 for sound effects really enhances gameplay. Unfortunately most games I've played don't use it nearly as effectively.

SteelgearX

I think you guys are misunderstanding. Pixy, I'm at work right now but there was an article on EGM with Hideo Kojima about MGS3. Should be on 1up.com, where he mentioned running out of space and having to cut some stuff.

Josh Hinkle, lol, "real music" has nothing to do with compression. Whether it's a fantasy-like score or Snoop Dogg blasting from your speakers makes no difference on the amount of space it's going to take. The reason we're going to bigger discs is mainly because a two hour movie no longer fits on a single DVD if it's to be in HD. TWO HOURS! Have you looked into HD tivo-like devices? Look at the difference in the space it takes to record regular tv as opposed to HD programs. More space is crucial for the next generation.

Josh H

That's true to an extent, but a lot of composed game music isn't in redbook audio, but rather still done in much smaller, more compressed formats. So the only real advantage to more space with music is less compressed formats, but I'm not an audiophile and don't really care.

I get the point on HD, but it's off no benefit to me as I couldn't care less about HD next gen though as there's zero chance I'll have an HD TV during that generation.

PixyJunket

I'm at work too but I'll take your word for it. Okay, so that's still a single single-layered disc. Just by moving up to dual-layered they've got an extra 4 gigs just for audio (considering that the game and existing audio fit onto the first layer), that's a lot. Don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to a new format, I'm just pointing out that breaking the requirements for the current media will be the exception, not the norm, and they'll primarily be due to audio usage (we'll ignore full-motion video since its been mostly phased out by in-game animation).

Josh, do you think uncompressed DTS audio will be something that will actually be used often for video games? It's still only marginally being used for DVD movies.

Josh H

No I don't at all.

That's kind of my point, in agreeing with you.

I don't see developers leaving out anything due to space restrictions other than less compressed audio and useless video cut scenes which aren't used much anymore.

And audio/videophiles aside, does anyone really care if that stuff is left out? As long as gameplay isn't being shortened due to space restictions (which I've never heard of happening) I couldn't care less.

PixyJunket

I was asking the other Josh actually, since he posted the DTS numbers, but your opinion is welcome too!

Josh H

Oops, my bad, I just assumed since it was right below my post mentioning less compressed music.

joshd2012

That I don't know. I think it all depends on what movie studios do. DTS announced "DTS-HD" last year for Blu-Ray and HD-DVD which "is a set of extensions to the Coherent Acoustics audio coding system, which also encompasses DTS Digital Surround, DTS-ES, and DTS 96/24" so it will be available to use.

Then again, I found it amazing how many people were excited about DD5.1 on the Xbox. The vast majority of games that use, don't use it in a way that is noticably different than if they just used Pro Logic II. But it was a huge selling factor for the Xbox - whether it was truely useful or not.

Now, I'm not trying to start a discussion on whether or not a game needed DD5.1 or not, I'm just saying that the technology MAY have been used in some cases because it was there, rather than because of necessity. There is nothing to say that the same thing couldn't happen again - game developers encoding in DTS-HD because they can, not necessarily need to. And it only will take one game with lossless, high bit rate audio used correctly in a game to prove its worth.

kenage

The PS3 might not have a blu-ray drive anyway. Recently Sony and the people behind the HD-DVD agreed to do a joint venture to make one standard and not the two competing ones like VHS vs. Beta. It will confuse the average buyer a lot less with having only one format.