I heard today that X-Box 2 WILL be backwards compatible and also (keep in mind this is from a good source) that it will play most PC games.

You're right, the Sony Hype Machine could do the same thing to XB2 as it did to DC. Really the only game they need to counter with is a new GTA. Hopefully Xbox will have a few aces up their sleeve and develop some sort of game that is exclusive and goes head to head with GTA, like a good GTA clone. Who knows, should be fun to see how it plays out. I just don't see the whole 1 year sooner thing making any big difference, and it'll give Xbox a better chance to compete.

Really I'm sure they know exactly what happened to the DC and will be doing everything they can to not make the same mistakes. Hell, having EA onboard will help out tremendously.

Ok, whoever said "4 year lifecycle vs. 5 year lifecycle" is WRONG! Let me reiterate. PS2 came out in 2000, a whole year after the Dreamcast. Whupped it's ass. Not necessarily because of better software, but most non-hardcore gamers saved their money for PS2.

Xbox came out in 2001, a whole year after the PS2. Now, XB2 is set to come out in 2005. Only 4 years later. Meantime, PS3 is set for a 2006 release. Do the math, that's a SIX year lifespan. I'm not absolutely sure, but off the top of my head that's the longest any console has gone without a succesor. (Neo Geo I guess, still going strong).

Again, don't get it twisted, I'm VERY excited about the next gen. But being realistic, Sony has the gaming world by the throat. MS and the Big N are just playing for second place. "Playstation" is a household name, and don't forget (and this is big), that it's a household name in the U.S. AND in Japan. Xbox is a complete and utter failure in Japan. If you think that doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things you're sadly mistaken.

I do see MS as more going head to head with Sony (both this gen and next). There are a lot of similarities between the game line ups of the xbox and ps2 minus a few particular genres. Nintendo seems determined to carve out it's own niche.

One thing the xbox proved is that strong Japanese support is not necessarily required to to suceed in western markets but if they're going to come close to sony worldwide they will need to do a hell lot better.

I definitely agree with a lot of this. When your console has given you 6 solid years of play it is going to be hard to draw away a lot of loyal gamers with a console that pretty much admitted defeat the last time around with a 4 year and out system. However, MS isn't playing for second place this next time out so we will have to see how it goes. Problem for the Xbox2 might be the same thing the Dreamcast faced though. I guarantee when the launch date nears Sony will start flooding the market with everything the PS3 can do. When gamers see how more powerful the PS3 is they will probably sit with their current system and wait.

Nintendo's plans with the Revolution seem to be aimed towards being a second console. Something completely different, but something you will still want to own. That could make it tough on the Xbox since it really isn't a very good second system because its games are so similar.

True, not to mention one of the biggest draws of the X-Box now is that all to common phrase "...well it looks better on the x-box". That led a lot of multi system owners to purchase third party games for that system. Unless the unthinkable happens, coming out so early gives Sony and The big N the upper hand graphics wise pretty much automatically. I hope they're successful though as I really enjoy my current X-box.

ETA: While I think it's damn cool and welcome the change, I wonder if the customizable soundtracks on every game will make developers who make games like SSX 3 (with music being so integral to the experience) shy away from using it a bit? It being making sound tracks that change with momentum and stuff like that - interactive music essentially, not it being the x-box 2.

I'd hate to mess around with the console pissing match conversation, but I'm going off topic with some on topic info:

The Xbox 2 UI shots:

http://www.xbox.com/media/system/gdc...-guide-001.jpg
http://www.xbox.com/media/system/gdc...-guide-002.jpg
http://www.xbox.com/media/system/gdc...-guide-003.jpg
http://www.xbox.com/media/system/gdc...-guide-004.jpg

Looks nice, like what I was expecting with the original xbox based on the way they had hyped it.

His point wasn't that MS isn't trying to go head to head with Sony. Of course they are.

The point is they don't have a snowballs chance in hell of catching them.

Sony is on top, the only way they fall if if they knock themselves out. It woudl take a mistake of the portion of Nintendos at the end of the SNES era when they were king, when they backed out of the partnership with Sony and topped that off by making the N64 cart based.

So really, MS and Nintendo are fighting for second place, even if they aren't going head to head marketing wise and don't consider each other rivals.

MS is going for second by trying to catch the uncatchable. Nintendo is going for second by not competing with sony and trying to carve out a niche.

I still like what I see so far out of the XBox camp but three issues are still worrying here:

- The game prices. I think gamespot has an article that states games will cost up to $70 this time around because production budgets will be so high. I think by mandating High def and 5.1 sound and Live support MS is going to alienate a lot of smaller developers who make niche games that make the PS2 such a cool machine (Alien Homonid, Katamari Damacy, Parappa etc). "Fun" games like these don't need too much in the way of technology to play well. By the way if you haven't played Katamari Damacy you're missing out big time!

- Micro transactions: Not sure exactly how this works, but if I buy a $350 console and a $70 game and then have to pay $50 to pay it online for a year, I sure as hell don't want to have to pay additional $$ for incremental improvements and upgrades. Heck for $70 I better get a lifetimes worth of upgraded content.

- No backward compatibility: With the HD being optional I can't imagine that most of the XBOX games would work on the new console. From what I understand the reason the Xbox loads so fast is because the games are buffered in the hard-drive and are coded to do so. With an optional drive, in all likelihood the Xbox 2 will not be backwards compatible. This is an under-valued feature even if you don't use it because it generally makes the purchase more acceptable for joe six-pack who just bought a console a few years ago. He knows he can still play all the old games he invested in but also has access to the newer library. Even if you never use that feature, it lowers the opportunity cost of the purchase.

Still I guess the details are not out yet and this is all speculation. Still think this is coming out too soon and that MS is worried about fighting with Ninty and Sony head to head.

Will XBOX 2 backward compatability with all XBOX games ??

Not known at this time. Also, it wasn't mentioned whether XBox Live subs will carry over to Xenon Live accounts.

Chris

Microsoft has seemed to go outta their way to make games eaiser and faster to program for, with XNA and what not. Xbox Live seems to be the most solid and well built architecture for console online gaming there is. They have also liscenced the Unreal 3 engine to use in all their 1st party games. Now they managed to get the creator of Final Fantasy on board and they got the guy who created Street Fighter and Resident Evil too. I have also heard rumors that the new GTA might be on X2 first. I think MS has aligned its chess pieces rather well.

I guess at E3 we will here what Ps3 will be like, but will that be shadowed by MS's showing of the actual box and games for the X2??

What about Nintendo??? They had better offer online gaming on this "revolution"

Yeah, that whole thing about not needing "clunky downloadable (and free) updates" but instead having to pay for them didn't really sit right with me.

It'll be an interesting change, though, if in the next generation the PS is the more technologically advanced of the two. I'm so used to buying Xbox titles just because of 1) the hard drive and 2) they usually look and sound better than the other systems.

The really sad part is that, as someone said before, there was still a lot of life left in the systems, and it always seems like just as developers are learning to draw everything out from a system, they have to start from scratch with a new one. I'm not convinced that a first generation madden game for the next Xbox would be better than an nth generation one for PS2, when they supposedly go head to head next year.

I agree that MS is still fighting for second with Nintendo. I don't think it matters when they release it. Sony will be top dog for a while.

The only thing I see hurting PS3 in relation to MS is Live. MS already has a proven system that works and is easy to use. As far as gamer creds though, who really wants everyone to know how bad you suck at any given game? :lol:

Both have their strengths. MS has Live, and Nintendo has more brand name characters that bring so much loyalty they basically carry any given system.

I would love to see Xenon to launch with Perfect Dark, a Jet Force Gemeni or a Blast Corps sequel. They need to get Rare off their $375 million dollar asses. They have a whole stable of characters they could unleash on Nintendo, yet don't.

Commentary
 

gamesindustry.biz
Daily Update
10/03/2005

Giving away $2 million worth of high-definition TVs is a good way to make an audience like you - but even handing out a thousand of Samsung's 23" sets didn't change the fact that many in the audience at J Allard's GDC keynote on Wednesday morning weren't sold on his vision of the future.

Casually clad, open and passionate in what he's saying, and with an infectious grin, Allard is unquestionably a great speaker. However, his annunciation of the dawn of the so-called "HD Era" just didn't seem to wash with many of the game creators and publishers who had gathered in San Francisco for the conference, and even the internal logic of much of what he said seemed lacking.

It's not, as game developers after the speech were keen to emphasise, that they don't believe in high-definition. It's a great leap forward for graphics. But the reaction to being asked to see it as a defining factor of next-generation games was rather more wary, and with good reason.

American developers, unsurprisingly, were most enthusiastic about the HD Era - some even unreservedly so. After all, not only has the Xbox performed best in the USA - compared to a miserable performance in Japan and a tough slog in Europe - but HDTV has also taken off here much earlier than in Europe, where sets will only start to appear on the market this year, and TV broadcasts aren't expected to begin until 2006.

However, even some American game creators joined their European counterparts in expressing doubt about the HD Era. In a market where 5.1 surround sound is still possessed only by a small minority of consumers, despite equipment being available for many years, the replacement of televisions with HD sets is going to be a very slow, gradual process. Of course, Xbox Next - like all other next-gen consoles - will look great on a standard television, but that's not really the point. If you make HD into a key selling point for your console, you've potentially alienated a huge majority of consumers. Is Microsoft really willing to do that?

The answer seems to be a yes. Indeed, the company's message at yesterday's keynote seemed similar in this regard in more than one area. Allard opened his talk with a description of an old Atari advertisement which depicted an entire extended family and friends sitting in front of a console enjoying games - from young children to grandparents. This, he implied, was the vision of the HD Era - but from that inclusive message, within minutes he was talking about the three defining points of next-gen being high definition graphics, enhanced communication and customisable games.

All of those things are laudable, certainly, but are they mass market? Aside from the low installed base of HDTV, what about online? This generation, Microsoft focused on Xbox Live heavily, and provided an excellent service - which only 10 per cent of Xbox owners chose to use. Online, like HDTV, is still hardcore, and the shift to mainstream is more gradual than anyone at Microsoft seems willing to admit.

And what about customisation? Here, again, Microsoft seems to have chosen a niche interest area as a key selling point for its system. Certainly, there's a market out there - a certain percentage of teenage boys and young men - who might be considered a "remix generation", as Allard labelled them. They want to "trick out" their cars, modify their experience, and "self-express" through media. The success of Need for Speed Underground proves that - but while it's a good market for a videogame, is that a social trend worth basing an entire console strategy on? If you want to include everyone in that Atari advertisement, from kids to grandparents, in your target market, should you really be making something that only appeals to a small segment of a certain age group into your selling point?

Ironically, it's Microsoft's rival - the market leader whose share of the industry the Seattle-based giant is gunning for in the next generation - that actually seems to be getting this right. Sony has shown a willingness to experiment with broadening its demographic, introducing titles such as Eye Toy and SingStar which your average member of the "Remix Generation" probably wouldn't play in a million years - but your grandparents just might - and encouraging a range of software that covers all bases and appeals to all ages, genders and persuasions. That, it seems, is the difference between selling 20 million consoles in a generation, and selling 100 million.

Allard knows that Microsoft's next-generation console must appeal to everyone if it is to be successful, but as one developer commented last night, "Xbox is so busy trying to look cool to American teenage boys that it looks like they might forget about everyone else - again."


Chris

Truth.

Eye Toy and Sing Star are the reason Sony sold 100MM PS2 consoles?

Excuse my ignorance, but what's Sing Star? Like Karaoke Revolution?

I do agree that Microsoft is going after a specific market: the Xbox is not the most family friendly system in my house. My wife, who doesn't like FPS's, any games with violence, or racing games, pretty much sticks to the Gamecube (Mario Party, Animal Crossing, etc.) or the PS2 (Karaoke Revolution).

And she couldn't care less that it's in 5.1 surround sound or HD.

It does seem soon, but i think we need a next generation I want graphics like Half-life 2 etc. On xbox.

All consoles are guilty of targeting one key demographic. XBOX was aiming for the teen group big time, its one big piece of the pie. A piece of pie that Nintendo failed at targeting, they tried…but I wouldn’t consider them the winner nor XBOX for that matter. Sony still the dominator of that market, but XBOX sure took some of that fan base to there camp. In regards to XB2, I don’t see them changing their formula at all. Do you think they are going to target the kiddy group? No way. That’s such a marginal pie which surges during holiday seasons and isn’t steady. XB2 I’m sure will once again target the “teen America” group, and why shouldn’t they? It’s a profitable demographic. What hurt XB wasn’t there demographic, but brand loyalty. …not going to get into international market. SONY has a huge fan base. Microsoft needs that base for XB2 to be a success.

5.1 shouldn't be that big a deal -- most Xbox games do that as it is, right? The impression I got is that titles had to be Live-aware, but that was built into the system and wouldn't sap away much in the way of developer resources. High def could require more time to build more detailed models to take advantage, but I don't know if it would really alienate developers, and I don't think developing for the next iterations of the PS2/GCN would be remarkably different in that respect...and I don't think developing for 720p output would be much worse than a high res computer game.

I wouldn't be surprised if all three consoles were designed to have their games in hi def and 5.1 surround as standard.

I'm really liking the idea of the Live components in all games. If you've ever watched the .hack anime, this news really reminds me of that show's setting.

Well that's your opinion and the other guys obviously. I'm sure if the microsoft execs agreed with you they would have quit long ago. Thankfully they don't :).

To be honest I don't think think Sony, and in particular MS, will be showing all that much concern with what N has planned. Of course they will no doubt copy any useful technologies like the wavebird if they think it's a good idea.

Also I think MS will be trying to carve out new markets with pc users (who don't currently play games) and female gamers (who might only play card games and flash). Either way I think the total number of ps3,xb2, and revolution sold this time round will exceed the current generation significantly.

On the 2nd place thing, I can't really see MS not being more successful, probably significantly, in sales with the xb2 compared to the box. N will have to pull something amazing out to surpass their success with the GC this time round, but there's still time of course. So if we're just talking 2nd place then I'll put my money on MS ;).

the sooner they release xbox2 the sooner it will drop in price so I can get one. :)

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/03...s_6120151.html
Mainly talks about the zelda trailer (see other thread) but there's a bit on the revolution down the bottom:

Gamespot.com
Last but certainly not least, the at-times controversial executive Revolution. Confirming earlier rumors, Iwata said the device would have built-in Wi-Fi connectivity, "which will allow users around the world to connect with one another wirelessly." While he carefully avoided the word "online," Iwata implied that Nintendo will apparently reverse its long-standing policy of abstaining from online gaming with its forthcoming machine, saying it would have sort of the same Wi-Fi functions as the soon-to-be-online DS. He also said development kits for the device would be sent out by the time of the E3 expo in May, and that it would be backward compatible with GameCube titles.

Iwata also let the audience peer into the guts of the Revolution, which he more elegantly referred to as the device's "technological heart." Like the next Xbox, it will be powered by a custom central processor from IBM, in this case code-named "Broadway." It will also sport a graphics card--code-named "Hollywood"--from ATI, which is also making the GPU for the next Xbox. "We're excited to be developing the graphics chip set for Revolution, which continues our long-standing relationship with Nintendo," said ATI president and CEO Dave Orton in a statement.

I was only stating that the so- call 5 year rule is just that a rule. If MS goe4s ahead and release a new console this christmas, Big deal so it's 12 to 11 months early. I don't see a problem with this. I love the fact that HD will be taken advantage.

And your statement that Sony would release a new console in 2006 has never been stated by Sony.

Your last statement was wrong. The Video market is dynamic market. One innovative game (i.e. GTA3/4) can really boost a system sells(you seems to have forgotten the Nintendo years). The market I feel is big enough for three system, Sony and MS are certainly going for the same group. Nintendo the family market. Any company can make marketing mistake. -smile-

And this TV (Sanyo HT30744) just dropped in price to $562 at Wal-Mart, which is a crazy insane price for a widescreen HDTV with a built-in tuner. Good, good stuff.

It sounds great, but I won't be buying it right away. I bought my Xbox end of 2003, and I still have a LOT of games on it I want to play...

Plus, being cheap, I won't buy a new console at "launch" prices. I'll wait until it's under $200. Ironic, since that's also my price-point for video cards for my PC ; )

Sony and Nintendo are both on for backwards compatibility.. I know there's been rumors that Xbox Next will be, but nothing has been confirmed yet. This is a big factor for me.. I felt a bit burned on my Xbox purchase but I still have a handful of exclusives that I've kept the system for.. "apparently" (I won't beleive it until I see it) X2 is going to have stronger Japanese support, so that on top of being able to play those handful of games will really help me decide on a purchase.

I thought the thinking was, if the hard-drive isn't included in the basic package, how could Xbox 1 games play on xbox2? Not to mention that because of the HD, it's not like I can just sell my Xbox 1, since how would I transfer all the saves?

One option is that the dvd drive will have a significantly higher read speed and then using the extra ram for some OS level caching may be enough to manage it. The flash memory would be enough for save games.

The other option is that xb1 emulation will only be available with the purchase of the optional HD.

Its possible that saves might be transferable via the network (even if it's just a cable between the 2 units).

Of course the feature might not make it at all which would suck.

Well, if they are planning on streaming MP3's for the customizable sdtk off your networked PC(since their is no hard drive, may be a safe bet), save games and d/l content could be kept on your existing PC.

This to me sounds very realistic. They seem to be building this around Live, and to have Live you need BB, and usually if you have BB it is safe to assume you already have a PC. Only problem with this is that I'm sure Mac users will be left out in the cold on software support.

Some revolution stuff which is interesting:
http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/03...s_6121264.html
"Pointing out that development costs continue to rise, developers have expressed concern about creating games for the console. Iwata said Nintendo will do everything it can to lower the costs and he revealed that one of the solutions is that fact that Revolution will use the same application program interfaces (APIs) as the GameCube. "

""For the next-generation console, we plan to introduce a friendly user interface so that, for example, a mother who's watching her child playing a game might say, 'Oh, I'd like to try that too’. However, user interfaces are devices that can be easily imitated by other companies, so I can't reveal any details right now," he said. "

"In closing, when asked if he thought HDTV output would be one of the key specs of the Revolution, Iwata declined to comment since it touched on the subject of the machine's hardware. However, he did say it was his own personal opinion that HDTV compliance would add little value, since he felt HDTVs probably won't proliferate widely during the three-to-five-year lifespan he sees the Revolution having. "

I hope something got lost in the translation here.

Three to five years? <i>Three</i>?

He doesn't think HDTVs will be widespread by 2010-11? Walmart already sells HDTVs for under $1000 now. Now fast-forward things five years...

No HD is a deal breaker for me.

I dunno, even as TVs get cheaper, how many people will buy a new TV if the old one is working fine? I don't think HD is such a big deal to a ton of people who won't even want to pay extra for the HD signal. Of course, early adopters of game systems usually buy new tvs. But then I guess the kids get the old, non HD ones to play their nintendo on.

I do wonder if all systems will come default with component cables, and if you only have composite you'll have to buy a "low-def" pack. Although now that you can buy a 30 inch LCD TV for under 1000, who knows how low the low-end will go.

The three-year window is the shocker. If he publically says that he only sees his next system lasting three years, I'm not sure I'm going to invest in it.

You would hope he means that they are thinking about not mandating HD support (ala MS). As in those companies that wish to implement HD support for the revolution will do so (presumably most).

The 3 year thing seems a little odd too..

The GameCube supported HD, I honestly can't see that being left out of the Revolution. However, I don't think Nintendo figures it will be a selling point so it probably won't be mandatory.