http://www.gamespot.com/news/2004/08...s_6104297.html

After reading that it got me thinking a little. Is he right can I game sell well without army men in it or allot of explosions? I think if Mario was made in this day and age would it even sell worth a crap? I know Mario Sun Shane did not pull in the numbers like Mario 64. So it does show signs yes gamers are moving away form games like that.

Most people would be why the hell do I want to play as a fat ass guy who kills shit with his ass!? Sonic is the same way would anyone want to play as a blue hedgehog who runs fast? If you look at the sells of the games they sell less and less with each new game coming out. So it seems only old fans are still buying the games. You don't hear about new people getting into the Sonic and Mario games just the older gamers seem to care about them anymore.

I myself am getting so sick of all the army games and games based on movies. I want more character based games. The Odd-World game for xbox was nothing special but I liked Munch and Ape so much it's one of my fav games. Now I will follow everything the Odd-World company does from this point on.

It would seem character driven games are on the way out the door and that is pretty sad to see in my eyes. I often think the reason hardcore gamers liked Beyond Good And Evil so much was cause it was one of the few very character driven games out this gen. The same goes for POP.

I'm really starting to miss character driven games now and it seems the game world is moving past that and moving past me. I know allot of company's still want to make them type of games but they got to think of the bottom line. Hope is still around with Jak and Racket and games of the like but I don't see this thread changing for the better anymore. I see games like Jak and stuff on the way out in the future.

I also don't want to be playing Jak 23 cause that is the only character driven game that will sell cause it is a proven series. I want new character's and new character driven games not just sequels to old character driven games.

This is one of the few games I'm going to look at just so a can support the game and the ideas behind it. I may not buy it if it sucks but I will keep a close eye on it form this point on.

What do you think on this subject?

PS. I forgot N$ is allot allot of hope if you love character driven games. However if people stop buying them even they can't keep it up forever.

Mario Sunshine stilll sold well. Sonic Adventure 2 Battle on the GC sold over a million (not sure how Sonic Heros has done). The Mario ports on the GBA sold like hotcakes.

Jak and Daxter sold well, Ratchet and Clank sold well. And then there's some fringe games like Vodoo Vince that were fairly popular.

So I don't think character games are dead at all. There was always only a handful of popular series each generation, with several crappy wannabe games coming out from third parties. I don't see any difference now.

Well you're still getting less of them and the ones coming out sell like shit. You have a few that will sell well and I listed them but your getting less and less and the sells are taking a dive. You don't know I could find sell numbers do ya?

I don't know about the genere overall, don't pay much attention, but both Mario Sunshine, and the Many Sonic games have been amoung the Gamecube's best sellers. The recently released sonic game on Xbox has sold quite well too.

The reasons the numbers are not going to be as high as Mario 64 is simple in my mind. The gameplay didn't offer that much new stuff. While it certainly added on top of Mario 64 it was no where the leap from SNES->N64 where gamers got to see their first truely 3d game with true 3d control. People where like "Whoah! It's like a cartoon!" and wanted to play it. Overtime people have become quite sensitived to 3d and don't think anything of it. Hell, a 2d game is more of novelity these days.

Another reason for Sunshine not bringing in the same numbers is reviews. Today's gamer is easily influenced by online reviews, no one wants to waste their money. Sunshine suffered some less then perfect reviews because I think many people were expecting another Mario 64 freshness experience; despite Nintendo telling them that would not be the case, many gamers and reviewers were "let down" by mario sunshine. Interesting enough if you go back and play through Sunshine without these expectations you find it is a very solid game, more so then Mario 64 in most ways.

And just as online reviews effected Sunshine they effect many of these other games like Mario. Many of them just arn't very good. The average gamer avoids even "ok" games because there are so many to choose from these days. "When I was a kid" many people bought the games soley based on the back of the box. That was it, no reviews of nothing. Sure There was EGM and such, but that only took like 3 months to get a review, lots of people didn't wait that long. A game could sell well just because it's pretty box art and the fact that it included some new game local.

As time goes on you will see more character development in all games IMO. Next generation will bring better graphics for sure, but the real area of improvement should be in the telling of the story and the character's AI. At least I hope so.

The problem isn't so much in the characters, but in the gameplay. How many 3D platformers have been clones of Mario 64, where you run around, stomping enemies, looking for power-ups, hopping on platforms and seeking objects so that you can go through that next door?
The genre isn't dead. Far from it. No platformer is likely to sell like GTA : SA or Halo 2, but I'd bet Sony's big three for fall will all do pretty well. It's important for platformers to come up with original gameplay ideas. Some work well (Ratchet, Sly Cooper), others not so much (Blinx, Sonic Heros). It's the recycled PS1 titles (Crash, Spyro) and the generic forgettable platformers that keep bringing the genre down. Any big fans of Ty the Tasmanian Tiger? Vexx? Dr. Muto? Didn't think so.

You know, I never thought about it that way.

Then go ahead and lump Link (Zelda), DK and Samus (Metroid) in their as they have released many incarnations of themselves across several generations of consoles, both hand-held and set-top.

I like to play game that have some characters that I'm familiar with, its kind of like watching a series of movies and you want to see what they get into next.

But in this day and age... when Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh, Gundham, DragonBallZ and all the other imports rule the thinking of younger player and our generation has jumped to games like GTA, FPSs and Battlefield games, I'd be inclined to say 'no.'

Everything now a days needs to have a license or some other pop-culture vehicle attached to it...

... or be as bloody and scary as hell.

My point was that's the way it's always been more or less, as far as number of games go.

In the 8 bit era there were more, as platformers were the big thing then.

In the 16 bit era, they died down a little. You had a couple Mario games a few Sonic games and some good lesser known games like Aero the Acrobat etc.

In the N64/PSX gen it was the same way, you had Mario 64, the 2 Banjo Kazooie games, the first couple Crash Bandicoot and Spyro games, Conker etc. and a bunch of crappy ones.

This gen you have Mario, Jak, Ratchet and Clank, Sly Coooper, etc and a bunch of crappy ones.

So number of platformers out there has been pretty steady if you ask me. I'm not sure if they sell as well as they used to, and I really don't care as long as the top tier series listed above continue to sell well enough to get made, as a good platformer is far and away my favorite type of game.

trends come and trends go and trends come back again

Honestly I think the market on these characters has decreased. While they were the kings over 10 years ago, the average age of game players has gone up, as well as the variety in software and ability to recreate more realistic situations.

So hoenstly, Mario and Sonic as characters don't necessarily appeal to everyone. Not to mention that type of gaming has fallen on hard time, where 3d platforming is far from a popular genre these days.

But they can still sell as evidenced by the good sales on recent Mario and Sonic games. In all reality, the characters are kind of more child oriented. While Mario hasn't changed too much in that matter, sunshine suffered from really not being much more than Mario 64 part 2. The innovation wasn't there.

With regrds to Sonic, they've made those games much more aimed at children. While a blue hedgehog was never an "adult" charcter per se, the addition of annoying voices, cheesy stories and a more children oriented games I think doesn't really appeal to everyone.

I think Mario will in the end be able to survive better than Sonic. Mario fortunately still has some great developers behind it. Sonic isn't as good as it used to be (and really after the second game became fairly repetitive even on the 16 bit systems). these charecters will appeal to many largely because of their history, but the appeal isn't really as broad as it used to be in the face of competition.

"TS: Well, I'm not in sales, but I did learn one thing from Full Throttle. PUT A BIG EXPLOSION ON THE BOX. Psychonauts is going to have two explosions on the cover, so it will probably sell twice as much as Throttle."

is this what he thinks of us gamers? What a bright vision.

Character games will sell because they always have, much like sequels to good games will sell. end of story. At least the ones from Nintendo I find myself coming back to over and over because they treat their characters with care, meaning that they make the gameplay good and the game fun, anything more is icing on the cake. I prefer games where you can see your character, it makes them more enjoyable rather than playing a set a hands. Everyone is waiting for the new Mario 128, I think that speaks for itself.

So to answer the question. No, character games are not dead and 2, Mario and Sonic will continue to sell for a long time to come (though I agree Mario will outlast sonic as the quality of Sonic games is going down the gutter at lightspeed).

sounds like you need to buy a Gamecube TOPDAWG.

and speaking of characters, for the record Psychonauts has some uninteresting looking characters, but the game sounds interesting.

The environment is different from the era when these characters became popular.

The really popular characters are results of the most publically-accessible, intuitive arcade games like Pac-Man and Donkey Kong. In the case of Mario, packaged with the toy every child in America wanted, and also in arcades. They became popular in the early to mid '80s when arcades were a fad -- popular with everyone, not just kids. That's why they're still the most instantly-recognizable video games. I'm sure if Galaga had some on-screen character that was identified by name (like if it had brief story cut-scenes every few levels), Galaga would still be a marketable franchise today. I mean, Star Fox could have easily been a Galaga game.

The others mostly were created during the early 8-bit days when Nintendo practically had a monopoly on the console market, with Sonic being the exception, probably because his game was packaged with the Genesis (like SMB) and had the benefit of a lot of marketing.

Anyway, I think it would be extremely difficult to create a new widely-recognizable franchise character because of the sheer quantity of games released today and lack of general public interest in video gaming like in the early '80s, but the existing ones will stay around for a long time. Honestly, I would consider Crash Bandicoot, Spyro, and Lara Croft (even with the movies) as financially successful for a time but ultimately failing to capture lasting franchises.

This is definitely the era of the shooter either FPS style like Halo or free roaming third person style like GTA. Its one of the reasons I have felt left behind as a gamer. I still long for the SNES era of gaming though I played GTA just like everyone else. I have been finding a lot more stuff I like on the GBA. It has more of the kind of games I grew up on. All of the games that have drew me in for hours and hours of gaming the past year or so and were my most replayed have been games like Mario Golf Advance Tour, Golden Sun II, Wario Ware Inc, Tactics Ogre and Final Fantasy Tactics Advance. All GBA titles.

The platformer was at the top for a long time, but I see the current trend going for a long time and I doubt Mario and Sonic will ever be as popular as they once were.

Trends change all the time though. By the next generation of consoles something totally new may be the big mainstream type of game.

We have seen times when fighting games outsold every single type and now they are nothing more than niche titles. You just never know what is going to be the next Zelda, Mortal Kombat or GTA or how long that type of game will remain at the top.

Same here (though In only played about have through GTA 3 and hated it), my interest in gaming has really waned this gen. I've found myself playing my SNES and GBA games on the GB player a lot.

They may be good sellers, but the next gen Sonic and Mario games are nothing compared to their NES and SNES/Genesis predecesors. I think they would sell based on name recognition, but unfortunately, they wouldn't be half the game those were.

I think alot of the changes you are seeing is a result of the average age of gamers. I dont' think you would find very many 30 and 40 year olds playing the original NES or PS1 when they were released. Many of use who played these systems when then were released are older now and like to see more "intelligent" games like the Tom Clancy series, SOCOM, Doom 3 and other shooters. The platformer genre is not dead but, I think it appeals more to a younger gamer.

Very well put. I never really thought about Mario and Sonic's staying power being linked to their games being packaged with all the early systems, but it makes total sense. What are the chances that *anyone* who bought a Nintendo, SNES, or Genesis didn't play the game it came with(though I think Altered Beast was bundled with the Genesis for about 5 minutes...::looks around::..yep don't see that one anywhere around)? When I was 8 or so I wouldn't have asked my moms to buy me a Mario game, but by bundling it with the system (along with Super Mario World) they essentially got a fan of the franchise for life.

Maybe that's the best way to introduce a new franchise/character to this generation? Like say Naughty Dog link up with Sony to bundle the next Jack and Daxter (or do they make Rachet and Clank? I can't keep them straight) with the PS3? It could be seen as a loss at first (like Sega's $19.99 price of NFL 2k5) but could garner a boat load of new fans for the franchise. Granted the game would have to be just as polished and fun as possible, but I think it would be very smart for some fledgling company to do this.

But in general I think this gaming generation (both game makers and players) as a whole are too concerned with games being compared to and surpassing movies and being seen as "mature". That leaves very little room for all ages games. Some are still made and do well but in general the entire genre is in a down-swing. Licensed games and shooter/action games are the rule today and I don't see that changing anytime soon. This generation just isn't all that condusive to creative games (which I think Mario and Sonic were).

I think part of the problem is that games are getting more and more complicated and use every button on the controller. Even MArio's last outing used a far amount of the GC controller. As Breakfast with Girls said, the characters aren't accessible and I think the games are less accessible as well just because they are more complicated. Non-linearity also has something to do with that as the go-anywhere-do-anything genre is sometimes confusing in that people don't know where to go next.

Cool, simple, next gen games that come to mind when talking about accessibility and fun are Ico and Prince or Persia. Neither used a lot of buttons, had minimal HUD's, and were fairly linear( ie. clear this section to get on to the next one). Also neither had a lot of violence even though the Prince did hack a bunch of monsters up with his sword. Don't know if these classify as "character games", or not but they shared many of the elements of those games. I guess the fact that neither performed very well sales-wise hints at the answer this thread is asking.

I still love some character games, although I rarely get to play them.

One in particular that I've had fun with is Klonoa. Those games are rich, innovative, and fun. Still love Sonic games, and Mario has changed a little, but is still Mario.

I think the character games work on a different level with each generation of console. They will always be a showpiece, they will always sell a ton. It's a different market in the sense that there's plenty of studios that make good games now, as opposed to just dealing with a handful and trademark characters back in the day.

doesnt Link go into this category as well. All the Legend of Zelda games have sold well.

Link is not a platform game though. Its an action/adventure title which is a genre that has seemed to hold up better over the years. Wind Waker was easily the best Cube game the year it came out while Mario Sunshine was just a good game and Sonic Heroes was terrible.

Yes, he is a franchise character, but not the same type of games as Sonic and Mario.