Groucho

Remember hyper-realistic RPGs? In the late 80’s/early 90’s they were all the rage. Basically, they took the traditional RPG formula, but added such things as eating, drinking, and sleep. If your character didn’t eat, he died. If he didn’t drink, he died. If he didn’t sleep, he died. What this translated to was constant interruptions in gameplay as you trekked back to town for rations or to hit the inn. Thankfully, these elements have evolved into beneficial options, rather than necessity (sleep to regain hitpoints, drink a beer to gain strength but lose intelligence, etc).

What am I getting at here? I’d like to see somebody take an entirely new approach to realism in RPG’s: a stat-less system. I was recently playing the demo of Lionheart on PC, and staring at all those figures and numbers it felt more like I was balancing a spreadsheet than playing a game. Don’t get me wrong…I love stats and numbers in these type of games…but enough is enough!

How about an RPG where there is no leveling, no numbers, no stats? Actually, these things would exist…but only in the background. You would never be able to see these figures…only deduce them from your characters appearance and actions. For example, the first time your dude picks up a sword he is unsure and clumsy…he might even drop it. But over time he develops in a master, over subtle increments. The basic approach would be to showing the player how his character is advancing, rather than telling him. This would be processor intensive, to be sure…but I’d love to see all that power used for something other than prettier graphics.

The hit-point system would have to be eliminated…if somebody comes up and slices off your head, you’re dead. Likewise, hits to limbs and other non-vital areas would hurt, but you could keep fighting (with penalties, of course). I mean, who wouldn’t want to play a game where you could walk up to a baddie and kick him in the nuts? Blood loss would have to be a factor, as would shock. In such a gaming system, magic would have to be a part of the world. The novelty of having a character who is missing both arms would cease to be fun if you had to live with it for the entire game. The real fun in such a system is finding unique and interesting ways to dispatch your opponents.

Coupled with this I would like to see a realistic inventory system where you can actually see on your dude everything he is carrying. None of this “Carry as many suits of armor as you’d like as long as they don’t weigh over 150 lbs” crap. You would actually carry your pack on your back, and your character would struggle with it based on its weight and size. It could also offer protection from attacks from behind…but at the same time if it gets cut open all your gear spills out (whoops). Nobody likes spending all their time juggling inventory, so an “auto-pack” feature would be a must…although the option should be there for folks to tweak how they carry stuff themselves.

The real issue with a game of this nature would be keeping it fun. Too much realism and the game feels too much like work. I think a couple staple of the genre must remain for such a game to work: the quest journal and the automap. Likewise, there has to be some measure of how your character is doing…NPC’s would have to offer a lot of feedback like “My, you sure are a clumsy swordsman…but your prowess with the bow is unmatched.” Combat arenas where you can test and refine your skills would be a must as well. I also think that the game would have to be character-based rather than party-based.

As mentioned earlier, I am a bit of a stats-hound myself, so this isn’t a direction I want the genre to take in each and every game. It is an idea that I think would work in a game or two as a novelty, however. Of course, elements of it could make their way to more traditional RPGs as well.

Thoughts? Opinions? Flames?

cheapskate

Interesting... although, did you play The Getaway?

I realise it isn't an RPG, but it did use some of your ideas. The health system, where you didn't have a health metre as such, but instead the damage caused visible effects on your character. It also had you "rest" to regain health.

The problem I had with this was that you spent most of your time trying to work out how bloodied your characters jacket was, and leaning against a wall for 5 minutes to "unbloody" it.

I hate traditional RPG's with everyone standing still, waiting for their turn to attack while their "points" go down. But I think people THINK they want to be able to play games without the need for stats, health meters, points etc... but when it comes down to it, they use these things because they work well (I just don't enjoy them). The Getaway would have been a lot more enjoyable if they had stuck to the traditional system.

However, I like your ideas - especially seeing the gear your character is carrying. It always bugs me when your character somehow picks up some stone statue and stores it... in their back pocket? With their gold, food and weapons? I'm hoping that Fable will be at least something like you described, with your character aging as the game progresses, stabbing swords through children's heads etc...

Lastblade

Shenmue is what I consider a statless rpg. I am so immersed with the game (although it does get tedious at certain points of the game), I consider it RPG even tho it is not (technically one).

Setzer

Personally I love stats but I'm not one for RPG's where it's necessary for you to eat & sleep just to keep your party members alive. I remember playing several PC RPG's back in the early 90's it totally took the 'fun' value out of the game...that's my opinion though.

I understand where you're going with this, though and it would make for interesting game. As far as eliminating HP or a Health bar...not sure how you could work that and still have a 'fun' game to play. If you were to be killed with one precise hit from a mob there would have to be a limit to the number of mobs you come across. So, you couldn't go into a dungeon and encounter multiple mobs and expect to avoid death with 4-5 of them on you at once. The only way you could possibly pull off a no HP system would be if the game was turn-based instead of real-time. Kind of like a Final Fantasy Tactics style to where you could manuever your character over the battlefield, taking turns. This would definitely make for a challenging game.

neiname

I agree, I spend too much of my working day already avoiding getting my head and limbs hacked off.

Interesting post Groucho, when I was reading this I kep on thinking that this would work well with Gothic for the PC. They could probably translate that game pretty well to this situation.

Groucho

I haven't played The Getaway, but I'll have to at least rent it to see how that system works. It does sound a bit tedious. Like I said, IMHO magic would be a necessity for this kind of game, so you could quaff a potion to heal yourself or whatever...no resting against the wall for 5 minutes.

Shenmue does have some of the elements I'm describing, although you can look at your various stats in the moves you know at any time. The idea of porting a combat system from a fighting game was brilliant, I thought...I think (or turn-based, as Setzer suggests) that would be the only to go with a game like this.

I'm the first to admit that I might HATE a game of this nature, since I love to look at my stats, and tweak them as I level up. But I would give such a game a shot since it would be something new and challenging.

Setzer's points about multiple mobs are good too. Game balance would be critical. You don't want your players wandering into their first battle and immediately getting beheaded...GAME OVER. Likewise, you don't want a system where your players simply go around beheading everybody they meet...too easy! Unfortunately, game balance is one of the hardest things to get right. Look at chess...it's been in development for thousands of years and they are STILL tweaking it. That, in and of itself, might be the fatal flaw in such a game.

Josh H

That would be cool.

You could still level up and stuff like you said, but it would be automatic as you gain more experience.

I'm playing KOTOR now and it does get a little tedius dealing with all the attributes and what not. It takes you out of the game for a while to when you have to screw with that stuff.

Groucho

Now that I think about it, KOTOR does have the option where it will automatically level up your cronies without your input. I suppose you could use that plus the "auto level" function when your main dude levels to approximate a statless RPG.

Josh H

True, I guess it would be more or less the same thing.

Still it's something you have to do, in that each time you level up you have to select to do it manually or use the auto level up, which still takes you out of the game momentarily.

I'd like to see an RPG that had few or no menus. No need for equipment because you can't lug around a bunch of crap, just one sword, and what ever armor/clothing you're wearing. When you get new equipment, you leave the old somewhere.

No items like potions etc. just use magic to cure and what not and have it refill on it's own like the force power in KOTOR. Magic could be selectable from a quick menu like the little bar in KOTOR.

With the menu's and selection screens kept to a minimum it would be much easier to forget you're playing a game.

Outlaw

Thats kind of interesting. Resident Evil and RE Zero on the Gamecube has something like this. It is possible to be decaptiated by certain monsters in game and they are instant kills. There are other monsters like the giant scorpion that can run you through with its giant tail, the hole through your stomach is permanent and you die. Also, if you time your gun shot and aim correctly, you can blow off the heads of zombies and kill them instantly. It is not very easy to do and you run the risk of getting hit by the enemy if you mess up.

GatorDeb

I don't like Hyper-realistic RPGs, such as Harvest Moon. Played five minutes and HATED it with a passion. I LOVE RPGs though, such as the Golden Suns, and strategy games such as Advance Wars.

cheapskate

More importantly, are "Monday Musings" going to be a regular occurrence?

Groucho

Yes! Coming next week: "Tapper vs. Root Beer Tapper: An In-Depth Comparison"

tanman

I do like those ideas but share your hesitance of who could pull it off. Someone else mentioned Fable and they seem to want that game to be more realistic in the way that you described.

Perhaps it could employ a system like Hybrid Heaven (64) where each limb has an attribute. Use your right hand more and it will become more efficient.





.....okay! stop snickering already.

Breakfast with Girls

Sounds similar to my ideal RPG. A game like that would be great, except I would want there to be a magic component to the game. You would buy or find spellbooks and then when you wanted to cast something, you would get a menu of the spells, where you could select the intensity (with different animations for the various levels). It wouldn't have to be numbers. Maybe you would start out with only Weak spells, then eventually Moderate, Strong, and so on. Then you could select a single enemy or a group.

I need a menu for complicated things like that because my fingers are just slower than a thought. I may know instantly that I want Infero, strong, group, but selecting that without a menu in a real-time setting would be too much.

I like leveling systems that go up based on your proficiencies. Use a sword more, you become better in swordplay. Use magic more, you become a powerful sorcerer.

(Basically, like Final Fantasy II, except the different spell levels, no turn-based, and no cheating to level up.)

I would like titles based on your proficiencies. If you were most skilled in a sword, a Swordsman. Magic, a Sorcerer or Summoner. Magic and sword, a Paladin. Taming and sword, a Dragon Knight. Or whatever. You could do all of this without stats and still indicate what kind of character you are. Class changes would be implicit in this system. If you became very proficient with a sword, you might upgrade to a Knight, Samurai, whatever. Maybe it would depend on your armor class, your speed, etc.

I would also like to see armor actually on a character when I equip it. Maybe Spiked Armor doesn't allow as much range of movement as Steel Armor, but damn if it doesn't look cool. That's another thought -- you would need stats for armor and weapons at least. Otherwise there's no way to tell whether to upgrade or not. In "real life," you might be able to tell that this sword is lighter, sharper, longer, more durable, or whatever, but that's hard to determine from our vantage point.

Groucho

BWG,

You pretty much just described Morrowind.

RoQuEr

Dungeon siege tried to do that. They automated the fighting, they auto sorted the inventory, and even auto leveled you up.

I got sick of it. I felt like I was watching more than I was playing. My sole purpose was to determine when to drink potions.

jrutz

I've thought about this for a while, so I'm with you Groucho. Being inundated with statistics kinda defeats the feeling of roll-playing. Although integrating increased statistics without specifically showing them might be a little difficult, because a +1 here or there is probably too little to make a difference. The only way this has been done in the past is via a linear adventure, where the completion of one task gives the player additional powers/skills to continue.

But I agree, this will be the future of RPGs when they can implement this method.

Jeremy

Breakfast with Girls

Never played it. Thanks for the tip.