Tamrok

I'm not sure what the exact sales numbers were on those titles but certainly they never attained anywhere near the level of success (or more importantly, cultural awareness) of GTA3 (although I imagine they're doing a brisk business now as gamers who jumped on with GTA3 go back to see what they missed). Based on pure hype going into last Christmas, GTA3 was barely on the radar as far as big name PS2 games were concerned.

Kellehair

Look at IGN's mile long page of GTA3 articles -- http://ps2.ign.com/objects/015/015548.html

Most of the articles are from October or before. I don't know how you can say this game was under the radar going into last Christmas.

ScandalUMD

Star power is worth a lot, but it only gets you so far. Eidos has run the Tomb Raider franchise into the ground, for example. No franchise is strong enough to move bad games. If it was, all the crappy Simpsons games would be tearing the charts up. Mario's appeal is that Mario games are always fun. Nintendo builds franchises by associating their characters with quality gameplay.

And plenty of great games get recognized by reviews and word of mouth. Grand Theft Auto 3 sold so many copies mostly on positive word of mouth, and so did Goldeneye. These weren't hyped games that sold out on release day. If you look at their sales curves, they show growth over a long period as more people hear about the game.

I don't know why Sega never managed to build franchises like Nintendo's. I suppose games like Shenmue and Jet Set were too niche-y. I don't think it's the content, necessarily. After all, most people who play Tony Hawk don't really care about skateboarding.

But, for whatever reason, Sega doesn't have the multimillion selling stable that Nintendo has. That's why Sega is third party and Nintendo isn't.

Shawn

What about Sonic? And, I'm not sure if this counts becuase they were only on the Saturn, but Panzer Dragoon games?

Tamrok

Well, let's see... I count 3 feature articles and 40 news items (many of which were written after the games release) about GTA3 on IGN's PS2 site. That's compared to 10 feature articles and 101 news items written about Metal Gear Solid 2. Now, based on those numbers, which game, going into the holiday buying season last year, do you think most people were projecting to be the console seller? I never claimed that GTA3 didn't get coverage in the gaming press. Grand Theft Auto 3 got as much press attention as many other PS2 games but not nearly the focus of games like MGS2 and FFX. At the time, it looked like a promising game from a series that had been mildly popular up until then. I don't recall anyone last July trumpeting GTA3 as the forthcoming game of the year on the cover of their magazine. I think MGS2 might have made it on a cover or two, though.

Kellehair

I didn't say GTA3 was the most hyped PS2 game. I was just refuting your claim that it "was barely on the radar as far as big name PS2 games were concerned."

Josh H

Sonic is definitely a huge series on par with Nintendo's best, though the Sonic Adventure games somewhat tainted the series in many peoples mind. Thankfully they are supposed to go back to the series' roots for the next game.

I wouldn't count Panzer Dragoon yet. As you said, they were only on the Saturn, and nothing on the Saturn was a big hit because the system sold so poorly.

The Panzer Dragoon games are very good, hopefully Orta will do well and revive the series. A new Saga rpg would be awesome.

Josh H

Kellehair, the point here is that no one expected it to be a huge hit before it's release.

Once it came out, the hype machine started because it was such a great game.

The point they were making is that all game series start out without star power, and I agree with that.

A game can come along like GTA3 and spawn a hit big name series.

But for every GTA3 there's 5 ICOs that are great but don't sell well and remain sleeper hits.

kvrdave

I don't own any of the Big 3 currently and have no ax to grind...so here are my stupid thoughts.

Online gaming won't affect much. The best online gaming system will claim it is all important, but online is at least 1 console generation away from being improtant, if even then.

Nintendo made carts, and now uses mini dvd format to cut down on piracy and that is one of the ways they continue to make money when others don't. Piracy is absolutely huge and most people don't even feel bad about doing it or see it as wrong.

Nintendo gives consumers the idea that they don't care about them, imo. The success of the Afterburner is a great case in point. Nintendo was always set against the idea of backlit or front lit despite the fact that consumers wanted it. Now, as a result, someone else is making money that could have gone to Nintendo by offering a special unit and the regular unit. They don't take risks, even when they look like they should be "duh" moments.

N64 was a money maker, but was still a poor encore to the SNES (not taking graphics, etc. cuz they were great). Gamecube will probably follow suit, and it will probably be fine with Nintendo. They will let the other 2 boys fight it out, sell more units, have a bigger following, and they will be happy to simply make money. I can respect that from a corporate view, but most gamers could care less about Nintendo's bottom line.

Nintendo does not make life easy for 3rd party. Just no way around that. I think they got spoiled in the last years of the SNES and decided that programmers should woo them instead of the other way around. Nintendo will obviously be around for a long time, but I don't see that they have the ability (or desire) to take the risks necessary to regain the crown of king of consoles.

But...I'll still buy each console some day anyway.

Shawn

Have Xbox games even been pirated yet? I do agree with you but I don't think pirating is "absolutely huge" because I don't remember reading that someone had successfully pirated an Xbox game, and the people who pirate PS2 games are definitely in the minority.

kvrdave

There is an xbox mod chip out now. They are a minority, but it is still money. The Dreamcast was pirated to extinction, imo, though maybe that started more after they quit making games.

YujiNaka

I'd have to say the opposite.. Sonic Adventure definately turned people's thoughts about Sonic around.. What was his last good game in the public's mind?

Sonic R, Sonic 3d Blast? These games certainly didn't put him back in the limelight...

Sonic Adventure is a series kids like... Every Gamecube in every Best Buy has Sonic Adventure 2 in it, and I think every Circuit City too. Its the best selling Gamecube game, isnt it?

Or it was?

I dunno.

I dont see Panzer Dragoon being a bit hit series with the public.. It might sell well, but, its a shooter, and very dark and stylish, I dunno.. I just dont see it to sell well with teh public..

Sonic, Sega Sports, Crazy Taxi, Virtua Fighter, etc.. these games sell huge numbers, so I don't see why people think SEGA doesnt have the franchises like Nintendo.

-Jim

Shawn

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Super Smash Brothers is the best selling GameCube game, it's sold something like 2.5-3 million copies.

Kellehair

I did. My freshman year at college everyone in my dorm was playing GTA2 on the PC. The jump to 3D, assuming it was done right, was only going to make the game more popular. I can understand if you didn't know anyone who played GTA2 but I refuse to believe my experience was that unique. GTA2 was very, very popular.

Trigger

Isn't that like more games than cubes?

Trigger

Yeah - GTA and GTA2 (and even the one inbetween) were huge. Everyone who had heard of the GTA series was wetting their pants over what GTA3 was supposed to be... it turned out to be all that and so much more. So to a certain degree, nobody expected it to be that cool and do that well - but it was on everyone's radar and they were all dying to play it long before it came out. I mean, to a certain extent you're right... it was bigger with PC gamers than with console gamers, so alot of the people seeing GTA3 on the console had never really heard much about GTA2 or GTA which didn't do quite so well on consoles.

Shawn

No, the Xbox has sold more than 3.9 million units and considering Japan is a dead market for them, the Cube has sold more.

Josh H

Through May, nintendo had sold 4.5 million Gamecubes worldwide and SSB:M was the top selling game, so 2.5-3 million copies isn't "more games than cubes."

Yuji, you're right, Sonics been heading downhill since before the SA games and Virtua Fighter and their sports games are great franchises too. I think Crazy Taxi has ran it's course though, but maybe not.

spankyj

I too played the series while in college and was definitely waiting for the 3d edition. So while some people were not aware of it, I was anxiously "wetting my pants".

YujiNaka

Damn, I coulda swore Sonic Adventure was the best selling game for the system.. Maybe in America? Is that possible?

Does anyone know how many SA2's were sold for Gamecube? I know over a million, but are there any stats or facts? Or for specific american stats?

Thanks
-Jim

Josh H

SA2 sold very well, definitely over a million, but I'm not sure of the specific numbers. I'm sure someone that keeps up on sales more than I do would know where to look for the info.

BrinStar

GTA 1 and 2 were HUGE on PC.
Especialy GTA1.

It was one of these cult games from out of no where that was imposible to find and everyone wanted.

It had just as much buzz about it, just in another sub-culture. All the people who started the AYBABTU and whatnot were the ones who hyped GTA 1 and 2 enough to merrit GTA3.
It just finaly reached mian stream then.

No it didn't sale as much, there was no place to buy it hardly.

I personaly played the CRAP out of the demo.

Zodo

It's interesting about how much false information is being spread about in this thread.

Just to clear a few things up:
SA2 has sold well for the GC, but not nearly as well as many of the Nintendo titles like Super Smash Bros. Melee

Xbox and PS2 have already been modded (there are several different modchips out for both), and piracy for those two systems is on a steady increase.
The only things making it not take off as fast as the DC is b/c for the DC you never needed an internal mod chip, and you could just burn games onto regular cd's.
For many Xbox and PS2 games, you have to burn them onto DVD-R's...and you have to have internal mod chips (which can be a pain to install).

GC has not been modded to play pirated games yet (though you can play import games if you mod one correctly).

Tamrok

They may very well have been successful on PC. However, the PC and console markets are two different things. My only point is that the media and analysts did not forecast GTA3 to become the break out smash that it did. I can't speak for every gamer in the world. There may well have been a few people who expected GTA3 to be the best selling game in history. Prior to GTA3's release, the majority of the hype was on games like MGS2 and FFX. That's all I'm saying...

Josh H

It will be tough to play pirated games on the GC. As I understand it you would have to have a special type of dvd burner to do it because of somekind of encryption.

So GC piracy will likely be more like N64 piracy were the only real threat is places in hong kong pirating the games and selling them.

It will be difficult, and likely expensive, for someone to be able to burn gamecube games themselves.