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Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

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View Poll Results: Favorite Classic Star Trek Show
Star Trek (TOS)
28.85%
Star Trek: The Animated Series
1.92%
Star Trek: The Next Generation
46.15%
Star Trek: Deep Space Nine
30.77%
Star Trek: Voyager
0
0%
Star Trek: Enterprise
0
0%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 52. You may not vote on this poll

Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

Old 08-07-20, 12:41 PM
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Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

Remember the days when Star Trek was good? Before being overrun by people with little to no regard for the franchise or itís fans. Well this is the thread to discuss classic Trek.

Basically anything before the Kelvin timeline, and totally disregarding any of the utter garbage Alex Kurtzman and company have shit out on CBS All Access.

So come here and discuss your favorite of the shows (and the movies that followed) as well as your favorite characters, episodes, alien species, ships, and just general fandom.

Last edited by Mike86; 08-07-20 at 12:52 PM.
Old 08-07-20, 12:45 PM
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Re: Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

Star Trek The Final Frontier is awesome and has the best character development of any of the original series episodes or films.

Live long and prosper.
Old 08-07-20, 01:14 PM
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Re: Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

Iíll say The Final Frontier has some good ideas, but isnít executed the best. I do love the shore leave scene with Kirk, McCoy, and Spock camping out at Yosemite.
Old 08-07-20, 05:24 PM
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Re: Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

Originally Posted by stvn1974 View Post
Star Trek The Final Frontier is awesome and has the best character development of any of the original series episodes or films.

Live long and prosper.
That's a hard thing to say in public but I agree. I've said for a while, that if you can pretend the other TOS movies don't exist, just TOS (and TAS) and then in the late 80s they made The Final Frontier, it would have been received much better. I think Shatner was still stuck in the TOS storytelling mindset, and hadn't evolved to the more cinematic sensibilities that Nimoy, Meyer were able to utilize. It's got a high-concept plot, and focuses on a surprise family revelation for Spock (which really shouldn't bother fans nowadays....)


I'm all in for discussion of "classic" Trek, even though I can enjoy the JJ films and most of Disco and Picard and am definitely looking forward to Lower Decks. I don't have the same harsh opinion as others but I'll keep them out of this thread.

Do we need a Star Trek section of the forum? (And also a Star Wars section? )


As for the poll, I voted TNG.

TOS is the groundbreaking pioneer and absolutely a classic, but it hasn't always aged well. Deep Space Nine went harder on some issues but had too much Ferengi nonsense. TNG is probably the most rewatchable Trek ever made.
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Old 08-07-20, 05:38 PM
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Re: Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

There should be a sci-fi sub forum where those of us with passionate views can duke it out.
Old 08-07-20, 07:36 PM
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Re: Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

TOS, TNG, and DS9 are my jam.

VOY and ENT not so much.
Old 08-07-20, 10:44 PM
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Re: Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

I guess I'd have to go with the Next Generation, which I recently started rewatching. I'll admit, the first season can be a little rough, especially several episodes that largely revolve around Wesley Crusher. I pretty much hated those episodes. I still like the original series as well, but that's more of a nostalgia thing, especially given the fact that a lot of classic episodes are mentioned in pop culture so I always feel the need to check those out so I can get the reference. Have never watched DS9 but kind of want to after reading a book from a book years ago, a Star Trek Oral History book. There were two. One focused on the original series and movies and the other kind of started with Next Gen. Really, really great books. And the discussions they had about DS9 made me interested. I just remember when it came out I was more hooked on Babylon 5. I think those two shows came out somewhat around the same time, and B5 just hooked me more (and I still feel it's great; I've probably rewatched the entire series at least five times).

Plus, Next Generation is the first show I remember following with my dad and brother. It would be on every Friday night at like 9:00 PM (I think), and we'd always watch it then get sent to bed afterwards. It was like a tradition we had for probably 3 or 4 years, at least. I still remember that season that ended with the Borg and then discussing that cliffhanger with friends all summer long. It seemed like every friend I had was also into the series and loved that episode.
Old 08-07-20, 11:16 PM
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Re: Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

ST:TNG all the way. Favorite show of all time.
Old 08-08-20, 04:19 AM
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Re: Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

It isnít my favorite, but Iíll throw some love towards Enterprise. Far from a perfect show, but I think itís better than many give it credit for being.

The cast is overall likable. Scott Bakula is a good lead as Captain Archer. I also like characters like Dr. Phlox, Trip, and TíPol. Iíve also always liked the aesthetics of the show. It actually looks like itís making an effort to be pre-TOS era. It doesnít look like something out of the sixties, but the NX-01 looks like a submarine or an old ship, and a lot of the technology is new and unperfected.

The biggest thing to me is that it actually feels like Star Trek, and in my mind is really the last of the classic era, which is why I put the thread end date as 2005 when it wrapped up. I feel like itís a show that was cancelled too soon. It was on the cusp of starting to get really good in its last season, but by that point it was too late.
Old 08-08-20, 09:52 AM
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Re: Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

Star Trek (TOS), Star Trek: The Animated Series and a shoutout to Voyager.
Old 08-09-20, 05:30 AM
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Re: Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

Originally Posted by Mike86 View Post
It isnít my favorite, but Iíll throw some love towards Enterprise. Far from a perfect show, but I think itís better than many give it credit for being.

The cast is overall likable. Scott Bakula is a good lead as Captain Archer. I also like characters like Dr. Phlox, Trip, and TíPol. Iíve also always liked the aesthetics of the show. It actually looks like itís making an effort to be pre-TOS era. It doesnít look like something out of the sixties, but the NX-01 looks like a submarine or an old ship, and a lot of the technology is new and unperfected.

The biggest thing to me is that it actually feels like Star Trek, and in my mind is really the last of the classic era, which is why I put the thread end date as 2005 when it wrapped up. I feel like itís a show that was cancelled too soon. It was on the cusp of starting to get really good in its last season, but by that point it was too late.
Yeah at the time it wasn't great. Especially the first season, which is the only season I saw when it aired then gave up on it. Came back to it just a few years ago and it's better then it seemed at the time.
Old 08-09-20, 05:40 AM
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Re: Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

I'm in the middle of a Trek re-watch (currently on DS9 S5 and VOY S3). It all has pluses and minuses: Trek 5 had some great character development (the I need my pain scene is brilliant); TNG S1 is unwatchable; ENT got better as it went along; Discovery fleshes out the mirror universe; VOY is uneven to say the least; DS9 doesn't get the love it deserves.
Old 08-09-20, 09:25 AM
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Re: Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

Reposting this from the Lower Decks thread:

EDIT: This is a joke meme. Please do not take it seriously at all. I kinda regret posting it now. I tend to dislike memes in general, but this one is at least a little interesting to me, even though I get why people find it inaccurate and insulting.



Yeah, as someone who remembers when Enterprise was current and people thought poorly of it, this is all so cyclical in my eyes.

Honestly, the polarizing reception to modern Trek has soured my feelings on the franchise as a whole right now (ditto Doctor Who and Star Wars, to varying degrees).

I haven't seen much Trek besides TOS, TNG, some of their movies and the first two Abrams movies. I wanted to get that 50th anniversary Blu-ray set of TOS and the relate movies, but money is tight for me these days.

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Old 08-09-20, 10:46 AM
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Re: Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

See, but to me those comparisons donít work. Thatís the simpleton answer to why a portion of the fanbase rejects new Trek. Thereís a difference that goes deeper in my opinion.

Pretty much every Trek show has maintained a certain style and tone. That of the utopian future where mankind has advanced to be something better. Problems are mostly thought out and violence is a last resort.

In the past the fanbase has had problems accepting a new crew in my opinion. Not all of the shows were perfect, and DS9 shook things up considerably, but they all maintained the feel of Trek in my opinion.

On the other hand the current batch of Star Trek ran by that fucking idiot Kurtzman is different. Itís Star Trek thatís made for people, and mostly by people who donít care about it.

Discovery and Picard are more about being edgy and hip. What says that more than lots of explosions, swearing, violence, and a group of beautiful people as the crew? On top of that piss poor writing, and essentially abandoning a lot of the ideas of what makes Star Trek unique and true to itself.
Old 08-09-20, 12:26 PM
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Re: Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

Originally Posted by Mike86 View Post
See, but to me those comparisons donít work. Thatís the simpleton answer to why a portion of the fanbase rejects new Trek. Thereís a difference that goes deeper in my opinion.

Pretty much every Trek show has maintained a certain style and tone. That of the utopian future where mankind has advanced to be something better. Problems are mostly thought out and violence is a last resort.

In the past the fanbase has had problems accepting a new crew in my opinion. Not all of the shows were perfect, and DS9 shook things up considerably, but they all maintained the feel of Trek in my opinion.

On the other hand the current batch of Star Trek ran by that fucking idiot Kurtzman is different. Itís Star Trek thatís made for people, and mostly by people who donít care about it.

Discovery and Picard are more about being edgy and hip. What says that more than lots of explosions, swearing, violence, and a group of beautiful people as the crew? On top of that piss poor writing, and essentially abandoning a lot of the ideas of what makes Star Trek unique and true to itself.
I wonder. There's a bunch of behind the scenes material on Discovery and the Picard series. So. I presume that the creators of those shows have made their creative intentions clear.

I genuinely wonder if any of the critics of current Trek have viewed any of these BTS material, and if they feel their criticisms of the shows' creators are validated.

Like, Roddenberry's son is a producer on these shows. Surely he has to care about his father's legacy with Trek, so I wonder what his input is also.

Also, when you call Kurtzman an "idiot", it creates a moral conundrum for me. It makes me feels that he is a bad person, and people who work on his show (Stewart, Alison Pill, etc.) are guilty by extension.
I know this line of thinking is irrational, but I'm a person with a strong moral center (plus, I have Aspergers). Like, people seem to hate someone like Kathleen Kennedy, ignoring the good films she produced in the past, more than they hate sexual predators like Harvey Weinstein.

This is why I want to disengage from certain franchises altogether.
Old 08-09-20, 02:11 PM
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Re: Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

Originally Posted by John Pannozzi View Post
I wonder. There's a bunch of behind the scenes material on Discovery and the Picard series. So. I presume that the creators of those shows have made their creative intentions clear.

I genuinely wonder if any of the critics of current Trek have viewed any of these BTS material, and if they feel their criticisms of the shows' creators are validated.

Like, Roddenberry's son is a producer on these shows. Surely he has to care about his father's legacy with Trek, so I wonder what his input is also.

Also, when you call Kurtzman an "idiot", it creates a moral conundrum for me. It makes me feels that he is a bad person, and people who work on his show (Stewart, Alison Pill, etc.) are guilty by extension.
I know this line of thinking is irrational, but I'm a person with a strong moral center (plus, I have Aspergers). Like, people seem to hate someone like Kathleen Kennedy, ignoring the good films she produced in the past, more than they hate sexual predators like Harvey Weinstein.

This is why I want to disengage from certain franchises altogether.
If viewing BTS material is necessary to get justification for things that were done on screen then the show runners/writers have failed. What's on the screen should speak for itself without requiring justification.

Just being Roddenberry's son doesn't mean the guy will care about the Trek legacy or even try to keep it alive. These days it's more often the studio execs calling the shots and we all know that most studio execs don't have a clue as to what really works and what doesn't. Show "integrity" matters not a whit as long as it's showing a good, healthy, profit.

While I'd not call Kurtzman an "idot" (I don't know him so...) I would say he's mishandling the franchise and making decisions that are not in keeping with the "legacy" of Star Trek. What I've seen of the new series (I've not watched Picard and have no desire to do so as long as it's behind a pay wall) shows a total disregard for what's come before. Sure, it's explained away outside the show but what's on screen just doesn't fit with any of the prior series. Put it in the "Kelvin" timeline and I'm OK with it as it fits quite well there. Call it a franchise reboot and I'm OK with it. Just don't try to convince me it's the pre-TOS Federation because, based on the 7 episodes I've seen, it's not.

As far as the other Trek series - I have very differing levels of "like" for them yet my least favorite is far ahead of "Discovery" on the "I'll watch it again" scale. While they all have their foibles and are often quite different from each other, they have a common feeling and outlook. I can debate all day about why TOS is better than DS9 is better than Voyager is better than Enterprise is better than TNG, etc. but at the end of the day I'd willingly watch any of them again because they all *feel* like Star Trek.

Last edited by BobO'Link; 08-09-20 at 08:48 PM.
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Old 08-09-20, 07:22 PM
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Re: Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

Originally Posted by Mike86 View Post
See, but to me those comparisons donít work. Thatís the simpleton answer to why a portion of the fanbase rejects new Trek. Thereís a difference that goes deeper in my opinion.

Pretty much every Trek show has maintained a certain style and tone. That of the utopian future where mankind has advanced to be something better. Problems are mostly thought out and violence is a last resort.

In the past the fanbase has had problems accepting a new crew in my opinion. Not all of the shows were perfect, and DS9 shook things up considerably, but they all maintained the feel of Trek in my opinion.

On the other hand the current batch of Star Trek ran by that fucking idiot Kurtzman is different. Itís Star Trek thatís made for people, and mostly by people who donít care about it.

Discovery and Picard are more about being edgy and hip. What says that more than lots of explosions, swearing, violence, and a group of beautiful people as the crew? On top of that piss poor writing, and essentially abandoning a lot of the ideas of what makes Star Trek unique and true to itself.
Exactly that photo is bullshit. It's a bullshit lazy excuse and in this case for a point the person doesn't even have a clue about as he claims he's never even watched the newer shows to form his own thoughts. But hey I know let me grab this photo(that's a total bullshit arguement) so I can forward my badly informed opinion.

The new shows go completely and utterly against what Trek was so much so it's actually shocking at times. Ugh I'll just move on don't even get me started....
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Old 08-10-20, 01:28 AM
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Re: Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

The DS9 documentary was a colossal letdown, between Avery's absence and Ira's chronic woke-ness. He went on and on about Garak being gay. So fucking what? He was the most fascinating character on the series, Trek's first real anti-hero, and that's all Ira cares about? The Trump speech and Charlottesville footage was also dumb and unnecessary.
Old 08-10-20, 12:30 PM
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Re: Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

Originally Posted by BobO'Link View Post
If viewing BTS material is necessary to get justification for things that were done on screen then the show runners/writers have failed. What's on the screen should speak for itself without requiring justification.
To each their own.

Originally Posted by BobO'Link View Post
Just being Roddenberry's son doesn't mean the guy will care about the Trek legacy or even try to keep it alive. These days it's more often the studio execs calling the shots and we all know that most studio execs don't have a clue as to what really works and what doesn't. Show "integrity" matters not a whit as long as it's showing a good, healthy, profit.
I do wonder what Rod Roddenberry's past reputation and role in the franchise both now and in the past is like. No one ever seems to talk about him much.

Originally Posted by BobO'Link View Post

While I'd not call Kurtzman an "idot" (I don't know him so...) I would say he's mishandling the franchise and making decisions that are not in keeping with the "legacy" of Star Trek. What I've seen of the new series (I've not watched Picard and have no desire to do so as long as it's behind a pay wall) shows a total disregard for what's come before. Sure, it's explained away outside the show but what's on screen just doesn't fit with any of the prior series. Put it in the "Kelvin" timeline and I'm OK with it as it fits quite well there. Call it a franchise reboot and I'm OK with it. Just don't try to convince me it's the pre-TOS Federation because, based on the 7 episodes I've seen, it's not.

As far as the other Trek series - I have very differing levels of "like" for them yet my least favorite is far ahead of "Discovery" on the "I'll watch it again" scale. While they all have their foibles and are often quite different from each other, they have a common feeling and outlook. I can debate all day about why TOS is better than DS9 is better than Voyager is better than Enterprise is better than TNG, etc. but at the end of the day I'd willingly watch any of them again because they all *feel* like Star Trek.
All fair.

Your point about the CBS All Access shows being behind a paywall brings up another point I want to mention:

Since the new shows are exclusive to a streaming service that relatively few people are even subscribed to, will they even matter in the long run?

Like, in 10-15 years, likely Kurtzman will no longer be involved with Trek (at least not to the degree), and there will likely even more diverging opinions on which Trek shows and creative teams are the best. So, it is cyclical in a sense, even if the Kurtzman shows could very well end as an edgelord anomaly in the otherwise largely optimistic Trek franchise.

Then, there's also the possibly of Trek going into a dry spell like it did back in 2000s.

Eh, it's a shame that Gene Roddenberry is no longer around, and since his death, no one person has truly emerged to be a visionary in the Trek franchise going forward. That's the problem with big, corporate-owned franchises, as I'm sure most of us all know.

I think I'll watch Stranger Things. At least that show's creators are still alive and guiding it, and its fanbase hasn't shattered so many sci-fi film and TV properties today.

Live long and prosper everyone.
Old 08-10-20, 12:43 PM
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Re: Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

Originally Posted by Traxan View Post
The DS9 documentary was a colossal letdown, between Avery's absence and Ira's chronic woke-ness. He went on and on about Garak being gay. So fucking what? He was the most fascinating character on the series, Trek's first real anti-hero, and that's all Ira cares about? The Trump speech and Charlottesville footage was also dumb and unnecessary.
I actually bought it on Blu-ray but never watched it yet. Need to one of these days. It is disappointing that Avery Brooks wasnít involved. Although he seems mostly retired and hasnít worked in years.
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Old 08-10-20, 01:37 PM
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Re: Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

Originally Posted by hdtv00 View Post
Exactly that photo is bullshit. It's a bullshit lazy excuse and in this case for a point the person doesn't even have a clue about as he claims he's never even watched the newer shows to form his own thoughts. But hey I know let me grab this photo(that's a total bullshit arguement) so I can forward my badly informed opinion.

The new shows go completely and utterly against what Trek was so much so it's actually shocking at times. Ugh I'll just move on don't even get me started....
Again, to each their own. My apologies if my rushed feelings has offended any of you or made you think less of me. It's just that the controversial opinions on new Trek have fascinated me for whatever reasons. If I have enough income in the next few years or so, I'll probably take the time to watch the various Trek shows and movies (past and present) and form my own damn opinions.

Originally Posted by BobO'Link View Post
If viewing BTS material is necessary to get justification for things that were done on screen then the show runners/writers have failed. What's on the screen should speak for itself without requiring justification.

Just being Roddenberry's son doesn't mean the guy will care about the Trek legacy or even try to keep it alive. These days it's more often the studio execs calling the shots and we all know that most studio execs don't have a clue as to what really works and what doesn't. Show "integrity" matters not a whit as long as it's showing a good, healthy, profit.

While I'd not call Kurtzman an "idot" (I don't know him so...) I would say he's mishandling the franchise and making decisions that are not in keeping with the "legacy" of Star Trek.
I'd blame the showrunners more than the studio execs, at least in terms of how TV shows in general are created, on a day-to-day basis.


Originally Posted by BobO'Link View Post
What I've seen of the new series (I've not watched Picard and have no desire to do so as long as it's behind a pay wall) shows a total disregard for what's come before. Sure, it's explained away outside the show but what's on screen just doesn't fit with any of the prior series. Put it in the "Kelvin" timeline and I'm OK with it as it fits quite well there. Call it a franchise reboot and I'm OK with it. Just don't try to convince me it's the pre-TOS Federation because, based on the 7 episodes I've seen, it's not.
As an aside, the rights issues thing is kind of interest to me (I'm very interested in ownership/licensing rights and intellectual property in general).

Back in 2006, Viacom and CBS split into two companies, both publicly traded separately (though Sumner Redstone's National Amusements still owned 80% stock in both of them).

The new Viacom owned Paramount Pictures and had the rights to the existing theatrical Trek films and the right to produce further theatrical Trek films.

The new CBS owned basically all other Trek rights: trademarks, TV rights, and I believe also the publishing and theme parks.

Then, just last year, Viacom and CBS remerged into ViacomCBS. This would put all the Trek rights under the same corporate entity (though I dunno if their different subsidiaries are all operating in sync together yet*). I guess we'll have to see how quickly this affects Trek media going forward.

Interesting that ViacomCBS isn't putting all its streaming eggs in one basket. Like, they're planning to merge CBS All Access and the Showtime streaming service, they're doing content for third-parties services like Netflix.

For all I know, Trek could very soon slip away from the exclusivity of CBS All Access and the control of Kurtzman and co.

*
Spoiler:
It's weird/interesting to me how there can sometimes be such corporate disynergy in these entertainment conglomerates. Like, Turner had to pay Warner Bros. to air Looney Tunes on Cartoon Network, even though both parties are part of what was then Time Warner. Now, Cartoon Network is part of WB under AT&T's WarnerMedia, so things have changed.


Old 08-12-20, 10:03 PM
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Re: Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

Personally I like the new series and think all the hatred is silly.
Old 08-13-20, 12:58 AM
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Re: Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

Anyone have thoughts on a favorite episode? For TOS there are some of the obvious ones. Arena, Amok Time, Space Seed, The City on the Edge of Forever, etc.

One that I always liked a lot was A Piece of the Action. Kind of a silly episode, and essentially one where the adventure of the week was visiting the set of another show or movie Still kind of a fun episode though.

I think the reason I liked it is because of the fact that itís one of the episodes I owned officially on VHS. I remember specifically getting it for my birthday (canít remember how old I was). My grandma used to take the grandkids shopping for their birthdays. Mostly to get new clothes and whatnot. I was allowed to go to Sam Goody as well and pick out one thing and the VHS of that particular episode is what I picked. So I probably watched it quite a few times.

Still have it to this day, along with the tapes for The Cage and The City on the Edge of Forever.
Old 08-13-20, 09:31 AM
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Re: Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

Originally Posted by John Pannozzi View Post

*
Spoiler:
It's weird/interesting to me how there can sometimes be such corporate disynergy in these entertainment conglomerates. Like, Turner had to pay Warner Bros. to air Looney Tunes on Cartoon Network, even though both parties are part of what was then Time Warner. Now, Cartoon Network is part of WB under AT&T's WarnerMedia, so things have changed.




I'm thinking there's legal and financial reasons that different subsidiaries have their own ledger books, so they can't hide money. So all transactions have to be on the books to keep it all clean and legal.



Favorite TOS episode? I've always loved how the two part The Menagerie wove in the footage from The Cave into an actually interesting and meaningful story. They didn't just do a clip show, they said "hey, let's look at some old footage" and it actually meant something.
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Old 08-13-20, 09:46 AM
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Re: Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

I can't pick a single favorite episode of any of the ST franchises, but one that really sticks out for me is "The Measure of a Man" from TNG S2 when Dr. Maddox wants Data declared to be property of Starfleet. Every time I watch it, I tear up at the end when
Spoiler:
Data thanks Riker for trying his best to win the case for Maddox

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