DVD Talk Forum - Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

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lisadoris

08-17-20 05:06 AM

Re: Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

Quote:

Originally Posted by PatD (Post 13789970)

If you want to get the full, authentic first-run effect, watch DS9 by itself for the first 2.3 seasons by itself and then when it hits 1995 watch the remainder of season 3 of DS9 and season 1 of VGR. Sorry, I'm a total nerd.

That's what I did. I actually starting watching S1 of DS9 concurrent with the second half of S6 of TNG. I too am a total nerd :)

milo bloom

08-17-20 09:35 AM

Re: Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

If you want the full experience, there are websites out there that list all the TNG-DS9-VOY episodes in order (with the TNG movies too) so you can watch them how they unfolded within the Trek universe.

My wife and I did it a few years ago and it's a fun experience, though after we started watching how well the MCU movies were woven together, it really exposed the shortcomings of how the Trek producers kept each show so separate from each other.

Mike86

08-17-20 10:01 AM

Re: Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

That would be an interesting way to watch the shows. I’m sure the crossover between the three shows is fairly minimal. They take place in the same universe technically, but shows and movies back then weren’t intended to unfold in the same way that they do now.

milo bloom

08-17-20 01:52 PM

Re: Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike86 (Post 13790313)

They weren't intended, but even watching these shows live and talking about them on the message boards and forums, there were plenty of people wondering why Star Trek didn't have more crossovers. They saw the potential for richer storytelling, especially when we did get the occasional crossover, like how DS9 started with the Enterprise dropping off crew at the station and Picard and Sisko talking or Voyager departing from DS9 to begin their Maquis Manhunt. There was even an episode where Bashir and Data explored Data's dreams or something like that.Then you had things like the three old TOS Klingons show up on DS9, or especially Trials and Tribble-ations and Voy's Flashback. These were great stories and really used the rich history of the universe to make them even better.

It has to be said that one of the biggest issues with Discovery is that it looked so visually different than TOS. You could update the old plywood and cardboard sets for the 21st Century without completely ignoring them. I'll always feel that the visual disconnect was such a big part of the fan backlash. Yeah, some people are racist mysoginists that just hated Michael Burnham, but there's plenty of people who just couldn't get into it because of the visuals and all the other stuff was just fuel for the fire.

One last post-2005 Trek comment and I'll quit - the reaction to Lower Decks has been far more positive than to Picard and Disco, and I can't help but think that them staying close to the TNG aesthetic is a big part of that.

Josh-da-man

08-17-20 02:42 PM

Re: Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

The closest thing to a real crossover between two Trek series is probably the "Birthright" two-parter from TNG's season six, where the Enterprise-D stopped at DS9 and Dr. Bashir hung out with Data. I don't think it crossed over to the DS9 series at all, though.

They would sort of do a "handoff" appearance, such as McCoy appearing in "Encounter at Farpoint," Picard in "The Emissary," Quark in "The Caretaker," and Zefram Cochrane in "Broken Arrow." And Q showed up in an episode of DS9 (never to return as Sisko would have none of his shit) and several episodes of Voyager.

Mike86

08-17-20 03:26 PM

Re: Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

I think in a lot of ways it makes sense that the three shows didn’t crossover more than they did.

I mean you had the TNG crew out exploring the galaxy in the Enterprise. The DS9 crew were pretty much just doing their thing in the Beta Quadrant. Then you had the Voyager crew who were lost in the Delta Quadrant for the duration of the show.

If anything references or possibly appearances via communication through the view screen or whatever would have made the most sense if anything were to have happened.

On paper more crossovers sound cool, and as a fan I’d have liked to have seen more, but there’s some rationale as to why more didn’t happen in my opinion. Plus the fact that tv wasn’t really made that way back then and I can see why it didn’t happen.

Josh-da-man

08-17-20 09:34 PM

Re: Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

The only shows where it would have made sense to have a full crossover would have been TNG and DS9. VOY, by its nature, would mostly exclude a full crossover with the other two contemporaneous series.

And I think a direct DS9/TNG crossover might have been precluded because they were both syndicated, and not always on the same channel or on at the same time, in the same market. So having a "part one" on TNG and "part two" on DS9 might have been tricky to pull off. Sort of how Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel stopped crossing over when Buffy moved to UPN and Angel stayed on WB, even though they were produced by the same company.

ben12

08-18-20 01:00 AM

Re: Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

Writers are creative. They could've figured out how to get them all crossing over if there was interest.

tanman

08-18-20 04:17 AM

Re: Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josh-da-man (Post 13788539)

Yeah, that's a great episode. Easily top-ten TNG on anyone's list.

Also, when people watch Picard, and complain about how Starfleet wouldn't be doing the shitty things they're shown to be doing, they seem to forget that in this classic episode, they came this >< close to declaring Data as non-sentient property.

And, hell, even on TOS, bureaucrats and Starfleet officials were often shown to be assholes.

INDIVIDUALS were always shown to be assholes or arrogant or have a sentient parasitic worm in them that sent a mysterious message that was never followed up on. Starfleet as a whole has never strayed that far. Made some difficult decisions, yes. But turn it's back on ideals no.

tanman

08-18-20 05:01 AM

Re: Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

Quote:

Originally Posted by PatD (Post 13789371)

When the Borg were introduced in Voyager, the show became EXPONENTIALLY less interesting. They had to a cram a Borg reference or appearance in *every* fricking episode of Voyager once Seven of Nine was added to the show. The Borg on Voyager were pretty pathetic and easily defeated in every encounter. They weren't the monolithic force that tore through a fleet of Federation starships with no problem.

Indeed, Deep Space Nine did a better job portraying the Borg in their one-time cameo in the series. There's no scene that comes anywhere close to this on Voyager:

What? No way. The Borg finally gave Voyager a purpose. A constant threat and even sometimes ally. They tried the whole floating around by themselves bit and it failed IMHO. Sure there were some interesting species like the Vidiians but they focused WAY too much on the giant hair gel race the Kazon. How many episodes were wasted on this species? Remember it had been several years since Wolf 359 and Voyager was built with the Borg in mind. So of course they aren't going to be the monolithic force that tears through Federations ships. They already aren't by the time of First Contact.

Quote:

Originally Posted by milo bloom (Post 13789414)

Voyager was drastically improved by Seven of Nine's arrival. Not too long ago I wanted to rewatch some episodes and I started pre Seven and then watched her first eps (Scorpion) and it was so obvious that she was outclassing all the other actors except Robert Picardo. She and The Doctor felt like the only 3 dimensional characters on the whole show. The cast may have resented her for being a T&A spectacle, which she unfortunately was, but at the same time she was a better actress and a better written character.

I hate that they had to lose Kes to gain her. I wonder what kind of stories they could have made with those two comparing notes on humanity.

I totally agree. She gets a bad rap for her looks and the writing on the show but she's a great actress combined with a great back story for her character and it became the 7 of 9 show for a reason. The biggest complaint I have with Voy is the lack of likeable characters. I like Janeway but it's really only her seven and the doctor that I find interesting. What few Chakotay eps they had were really tough to get through, Tuvok is too mature and vulcan, there was hardly any conflict with him. I did like B'lanna as well especially her relationship with Tom Paris and the dynamics that that introduced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PatD (Post 13789417)

Really? I thought the first 2 seasons of Voyager were the strongest. They didn't use the Borg as a crutch. They actually had to come up with adversaries of their own (like the Vidiians) and their plots were more centered around the show's premise. Was it stellar all the time? No. But, there are plenty of clever, compelling stories (I could name a quite a few) and it gave all the characters a chance to shine--before it became The Seven of Nine Show.

I would actually love to know which ones from the first 2 seasons you thought were great. Maybe I need to revisit those episodes sometime.

tanman

08-18-20 05:23 AM

Re: Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobO'Link (Post 13789846)

It sure felt like more and, to me, they all feel alike and run together - but I didn't watch TNG with any regularity after S1. Over the decades I'd catch an episode periodically and it always seemed like it was either a Borg, Q, or holodeck episode with a theme that felt like it belonged on another series - not a Trek one. I disliked all of those episodes I saw which featured the Borg, Q, and the holodeck (among others).

The only reason I continued S1 after "Encounter at Farpoint" was a hope that "Q" was a one shot antagonist and the rather cliche', rehashed feeling, episode was not typical. By the end of S1 I was so fed up with the Wesley Crusher character, the pointless death of Tasha Yar, and other issues, that I gave it a half dozen S2 episodes to see if things improved. IMHO things worsened with the addition of Whoopi Goldberg (and I still don't like her character) and Diana Muldaur (an actress I've never liked) replacing Gates McFadden (which I could have accepted had the Wesley character left with her). I also didn't care for the characters Data or Will Riker and felt Deanna Troi was rather superfluous. There were more things I disliked than enjoyed so I bailed.

I only saw the series in its entirety a year or so back when I caved and purchased a BR set (UK, region free, at an excellent price) to complete my Trek collection. Overall I found it mostly OK but until Discovery came out it was at the bottom of my Trek list. Now it's next to last. If I were to go through and cherry pick episodes I truly enjoyed I think I could get between 2 and 3 season's worth. I'll eventually rewatch the entire series but am in no hurry.

Maybe you were watching the same Borg episode over and over. :lol: As Josh already pointed out they used the Borg sparingly and to great effect.

Wow, I've never seen someone who likes Star Trek rip into TNG. Totally agree about seasons 1 and 2 and especially the Pulaski season. Ugh.. And how could you not like Data? I bet he would be in the top 5 most popular Trek characters.

Mike86

08-18-20 04:28 PM

Re: Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

Yeah, TNG wasn’t perfect by any stretch, but what made the show is it’s characters being so strong. Much the same strength that TOS had. Even the weaker episodes were mostly still watchable.

PatD	08-18-20 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tanman (Post 13790781)

I would actually love to know which ones from the first 2 seasons you thought were great. Maybe I need to revisit those episodes sometime.

Happily.

season 1
Caretaker
Phage
The Cloud (a great character piece)
Eye of the Needle
Prime Factors (Voyager's premise used to perfection)
State of Flux (ditto)
Faces (an episode that could give TOS's "The Enemy Within" a run for its money)
Jetrel (a metaphorical meditation on the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki that gives Neelix a chance to shine as well as the terrific character actor, James Sloyan)

season 2
Projections (this episode is genius puzzle box of an episode with some witty humor to boot)
Meld (Tim Russ and guest star Brad Dourif act the unholy fuck out of this episode)
Death Wish (a genius Q episode and the only time Voyager outshone Deep Space Nine when you think about Q's pointless appearance on that show)
Lifesigns (arguably the greatest romantic episode of all of Trek)
Deadlock (one of the greatest final acts of any Trek. It always get my pulse rate up at the intensity of it)
Tuvix (One of the most controversial episodes of Trek ever made.)

Enjoy!

lisadoris

08-19-20 04:59 AM

Re: Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

Quote:

Originally Posted by PatD (Post 13791169)

I agree with you on Eye of the Needle, Prime Factors (though I think they missed an opportunity with that ep) and Faces from the first season. I know what they were aiming for with Jetrel but DS9 did it so much better with "Duet." I also agree with the S2 list except for "Tuvix." Particularly in 2020, the ending of that episode just does not hold up. Robert Duncan McNeil and Garret Wang are doing a re-watch podcast and I'll be really curious about what they have to say about Tuvix when they get to it (they just started S2).

"Death Wish" is a really good episode but what bugs me about it is that Janeway didn't negotiate anything with either Q. I imagine most folks would have said: hey, I'll help you decide this matter in exchange for taking us home, knocking 5 years off our journey, hell just get us out of Kazon and Vidiian space.

tanman

08-19-20 05:34 AM

Re: Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

Quote:

Originally Posted by PatD (Post 13791169)

Yeah I definitely have to revisit the first two seasons. But hardly any of those episodes stick out in my memory as great episodes. Eye of the needle was a good one. I loved how it immediately established that Janeway was her own captain and definitely not Picard. Voyager did have one of the best series openers. Established the series right away. The rest I'll have to rewatch.....and OMG DID YOU JUST INCLUDE TUVIX?! -screwy- Now I'm questioning anything you have to say about Star Trek. ;) You might as well list Threshold too. :lol:

tanman

08-19-20 05:50 AM

Re: Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

As far as best episodes go I think the very two best in the whole franchise are TNG: The Inner Light and DS9: The Visitor. They are some of the very few episodes that really evolve beyond just being Star Trek episodes to being some of the best two hours of television. Neither episodes require a prior knowledge of any Star Trek. You don't have to know anything about species factions, or starships or even characters. It's just two hours of well acted, well written, emotional drama. It does what the best of science fiction does and that's explore the human condition through a different lens.

Josh-da-man

08-19-20 03:17 PM

Re: Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

Tuvix is disturbing as fuck. It's like the Sophie's Choice of Star Trek. It presents a moral dilemma where neither option is the right one.

Mike86

08-19-20 03:28 PM

Re: Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

Janeway is pretty cold in that episode. I mean Tuvix is pleading for his life and she basically gives no shits. Granted Tuvok and Neelix both had their lives at stake as individuals too. Definitely a moral conundrum of an episode.

Josh-da-man

08-19-20 04:42 PM

Re: Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

I wonder if they couldn't have solved the Tuvix dilemma by replicating the Thomas Riker transporter accident, where they would reflect the transporter beam, and split one beam into Neelix and Tuvok, while keeping the Tuvix beam intact as Tuvix.

Mike86

08-19-20 06:14 PM

Re: Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

I feel like Janeway didn’t try too hard to find an alternate solution to the problem.

tanman

08-19-20 09:41 PM

Re: Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike86 (Post 13791770)

I feel like Janeway didn’t try too hard to find an alternate solution to the problem.

That's because she only had 5 mins left to wrap it up. :D

PatD	08-20-20 04:22 AM

Re: Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

What are your favorite episode of each other the classic shows? Mine are as follows:

TOS "Mirror, Mirror"
TNG "Deja Q"
DS9 "In the Cards"
VGR "Living Witness"
ENT "Observer Effect"

I think Gene Roddenberry would have approved of the last 3, had he lived.

tanman

08-21-20 03:49 AM

Re: Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

Quote:

Originally Posted by PatD (Post 13791964)

What are your favorite episode of each other the classic shows? Mine are as follows:

DS9 "In the Cards"
VGR "Living Witness"
ENT "Observer Effect"

I think Gene Roddenberry would have approved of the last 3, had he lived.

Those are pretty great lesser known episodes. I love episodes like In the Cards that show the daily lives of less "important" characters with the primary story, the war with the dominion, going on in the background.
Some other examples are:
TNG: Data's Day
Lower Decks

PatD	08-21-20 04:19 AM

Re: Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

Quote:

Originally Posted by tanman (Post 13792517)

Those are good ones too!

DS9's "Explorers" and VGR's "The Cloud" also truly underrated gems.

Mike86

03-22-21 02:18 PM

Re: Star Trek Discussion (1966-2005)

William Shatner turned 90 today. I still think he looks pretty damn good for his age. Happy Birthday Captain Kirk!

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