Legion (S2E11) -- Season Finale -- "Chapter 19" -- 6/12/18
#1
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Legion (S2E11) -- Season Finale -- "Chapter 19" -- 6/12/18
Chapter 19
210 6/12/2018 10 PM ET/PT
In which David fights the future. Written by Noah Hawley; directed by Keith Gordon
210 6/12/2018 10 PM ET/PT
In which David fights the future. Written by Noah Hawley; directed by Keith Gordon
Season finale. It was recently renewed for a third season.
#2
DVD Talk Special Edition
Re: Legion (S2E11) -- Season Finale -- "Chapter 19" -- 6/12/18
Right on, let's do this. Can't wait.
EDIT after watching it. FUCK YEA>
EDIT after watching it. FUCK YEA>
Last edited by hdtv00; 06-12-18 at 11:27 PM.
#4
DVD Talk Gold Edition
Re: Legion (S2E11) -- Season Finale -- "Chapter 19" -- 6/12/18
This season was a bit too style over substance for me and I often found myself dozing off during episodes. That being said, if next season is David and Lenny going all Bonnie and Clyde then I'm in. And Oliver vaguely remembering Kerry as that girl who kicks people was hilarious.
#5
DVD Talk God
Re: Legion (S2E11) -- Season Finale -- "Chapter 19" -- 6/12/18
Interesting. Full on villain mode now.
#7
Re: Legion (S2E11) -- Season Finale -- "Chapter 19" -- 6/12/18
This season was a bit too style over substance for me and I often found myself dozing off during episodes. That being said, if next season is David and Lenny going all Bonnie and Clyde then I'm in. And Oliver vaguely remembering Kerry as that girl who kicks people was hilarious.
Yeah I agree, the whole season was sort of this psychedelic self indulgent artsy mess, and 10 minutes or so into this episode I was ready to not only bail on the episode but the entire show. But the last 50 minutes or so quite brilliantly brought all those psychedelic threads together into a VERY satisfy and thought provoking whole. One of my favorite TV episodes this year. Interestingly, the ending makes you go back and look at the multiple life possibility episode and realize in that in all of those incarnations, he was never really a GOOD person in any of them, but dangerous and unpredictable.
Having said all of that, I do hope for an actual plot next year and David could be a terrific and devastating villain.
#8
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Legion (S2E11) -- Season Finale -- "Chapter 19" -- 6/12/18
ITA. Feel the same way about the whole season. As I expected the finale put the other "WTF episodes into their proper perspective. I thought the guy that plays David did a really good job playing the three versions and including a convincing job of playing both the confused hero and the pure villain. Really looking forward to next season.
#9
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Re: Legion (S2E11) -- Season Finale -- "Chapter 19" -- 6/12/18
This was a wonderful trip - and such a different tone from the first season.
I consider this one of those "unique-imaginative-well-done-shows-that-no-one-I-know-ever-heard-of-let-alone-watches"
I...want...more!
I consider this one of those "unique-imaginative-well-done-shows-that-no-one-I-know-ever-heard-of-let-alone-watches"
I...want...more!
#10
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
Re: Legion (S2E11) -- Season Finale -- "Chapter 19" -- 6/12/18
Here’s a cool tidbit, I had captions on during this and the other Davids had altered names. One was Divad, the other DVD.
#11
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Legion (S2E11) -- Season Finale -- "Chapter 19" -- 6/12/18
Yeah I agree, the whole season was sort of this psychedelic self indulgent artsy mess, and 10 minutes or so into this episode I was ready to not only bail on the episode but the entire show. But the last 50 minutes or so quite brilliantly brought all those psychedelic threads together into a VERY satisfy and thought provoking whole. One of my favorite TV episodes this year. Interestingly, the ending makes you go back and look at the multiple life possibility episode and realize in that in all of those incarnations, he was never really a GOOD person in any of them, but dangerous and unpredictable.
Having said all of that, I do hope for an actual plot next year and David could be a terrific and devastating villain.
Having said all of that, I do hope for an actual plot next year and David could be a terrific and devastating villain.
I think the common denominator is that the shadow king, intentionally or not, broke him in all those realities.
#12
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Re: Legion (S2E11) -- Season Finale -- "Chapter 19" -- 6/12/18
I kinda like and am intrigued where they are going with this. Has a show ever turned the good guy lead into a bad guy before?
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Re: Legion (S2E11) -- Season Finale -- "Chapter 19" -- 6/12/18
It's a bit too facile to say that David is or isn't a good person. He's complicated, like real people. And like most people, he sees himself as fundamentally a good person. Any dissonance he experiences between the reality of his actions and his self-image is the same one that any non-sociopath experiences when they do something unethical. Farouk tortured David nearly his entire life, then killed his sister—of course he would want revenge for that. It's unhealthy, but understandable.
David sees Sydney as the totem that helps him stay sane. The love he has for her is selfish. It's about how she makes him feel. A lot of people are like that (recent case in point: Chris Hardwick). Control is the grease for an unhealthy relationship built on selfishness, usually in the form of manipulation. The root is insecurity and fear of loss. When the relationship inevitably starts to falter, the control ramps up, as we saw here. Eventually the point of no return is reached, like when he caused her to forget her suspicions and had sex with her. Someone can come back from this (on a personal level), but it requires self-aware introspection, of which David's in short supply...
In some ways, David is right about needing Sydney. He looks to others for direction about who he is. When they believe he's good, he's good. When they believe he might go rogue, he goes rogue. His self-image is fragile, and this entire season he's been under suspicion. But he also thrives on power and adulation. They're right to be scared of him. But he also left without hurting any of them. He may not always be the good person, but he wants to be.
I read an article recently about a 19-year-old Iraq veteran who robbed a bank in Tacoma with his commanding officer and three other veterans using machine guns. The teenager was given an extraordinarily light sentence because he claimed the commanding officer had indoctrinated him to the point that he believed it was a training mission. Only later did he admit to himself and his family that he knew what he was doing. For the longest time he had to keep the lie going and couldn't even really admit it to himself. Once he finally came clean, he was finally able to look at the events and his role in them starkly and come away powerfully changed for the better. I'd like to see David have a realization like this later in season three.
Now, all of this can be true while at the same time Farouk is also an evil psychopath who's manipulating everyone to get his desired outcome. Like he said (as Melanie): "It's the story, not the facts." Of course he stoked their fears so that they handle the David situation in the worst way possible. Remember the "moral panic" narration earlier in the series? "Submit to therapy or die!" while your torturer/sister's killer stands free is probably not the most productive intervention. I think Farouk will need to die by the end of the series—he's just too powerful and cunning to live.
Last edited by Breakfast with Girls; 06-17-18 at 09:43 AM.
#17
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Legion (S2E11) -- Season Finale -- "Chapter 19" -- 6/12/18
I think you're referring to the comic book character here, not the show. The show hasn't really gone into David having multiple personalities yet, except the Shadow King "hitchhiking" in his head all those years.
The multiple Davids so far seem more like "aspects" of his personality than distinct personalities themselves. I believe last season while David was in the classroom figuring out things, the second, "British" David in those scenes described himself as the rational part of David's mind, not as a distinct personality. In this episode, the two other Davids seemed more like the Angel/Devil on his shoulders, although given their advice they may both be devils.
Now, Farouk has been shown to have actually "absorbed" another personality, with Lenny. This season shows Farouk wasn't just using her face as a mask, but her whole personality existed in his mind.
The multiple Davids so far seem more like "aspects" of his personality than distinct personalities themselves. I believe last season while David was in the classroom figuring out things, the second, "British" David in those scenes described himself as the rational part of David's mind, not as a distinct personality. In this episode, the two other Davids seemed more like the Angel/Devil on his shoulders, although given their advice they may both be devils.
Now, Farouk has been shown to have actually "absorbed" another personality, with Lenny. This season shows Farouk wasn't just using her face as a mask, but her whole personality existed in his mind.
#18
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Legion (S2E11) -- Season Finale -- "Chapter 19" -- 6/12/18
Farouk, as Melanie, clearly manipulated Sydney into seeing David one particular way. While I don't doubt David could turn evil, and maybe did in the original timeline where he killed Farouk, that doesn't mean he's not beyond saving now. Where David went wrong was, after Sydney's confrontation with David was defused by Lenny stopping the bullet, he decided to erase Sydney's memories to just ignore the ugly side of him that was revealed, instead of addressing it.
If "I'm a good person and I deserve love" is a delusion, it's a delusion nearly all of us share. We all view ourselves as, fundamentally, good people. Even Farouk tries to justify himself to David and others this season, painting Professor X as the agressor, his hiding in David's mind as a simple act of survival, not malice. He even suggests he tried to get David to love him during his occupation.
It'll be interesting to see where the next season goes.
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Re: Legion (S2E11) -- Season Finale -- "Chapter 19" -- 6/12/18
I enjoyed the finale. Season as a whole was a bit uneven by I enjoyed it.
David probably erased Sid's memory as he assumed that she shot him under Farouk's influence. Which is basically true. She was convinced by Melanie that David was the real threat and Melanie was already under Farouk/Oliver's control.
I think Farouk was a projection. Since his face was lacking any of the damage that David had inflicted on him. But that begs the question is he now somewhere mentally unrestrained?
David probably erased Sid's memory as he assumed that she shot him under Farouk's influence. Which is basically true. She was convinced by Melanie that David was the real threat and Melanie was already under Farouk/Oliver's control.
One thing I didn't like about the final was Farouk being completely unrestrained during the "intervention". Just because David was guilty of something doesn't mean Farouk is innocent. He killed a lot of Division 3 people just this season, separate from David. I'm not sure how to explain it aside from Farouk still manipulating people.
#20
Senior Member
Re: Legion (S2E11) -- Season Finale -- "Chapter 19" -- 6/12/18
aside from some of the padding, the biggest problem i had with this season was that sydney flipped so hard and fast on david
#21
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Legion (S2E11) -- Season Finale -- "Chapter 19" -- 6/12/18
The multiple Davids so far seem more like "aspects" of his personality than distinct personalities themselves. I believe last season while David was in the classroom figuring out things, the second, "British" David in those scenes described himself as the rational part of David's mind, not as a distinct personality. In this episode, the two other Davids seemed more like the Angel/Devil on his shoulders, although given their advice they may both be devils.
#22
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Legion (S2E11) -- Season Finale -- "Chapter 19" -- 6/12/18
He tricked us into giving up control.
Tricked you.
What? Yeah, I-I got that part, man.
But if you're not the monster, then I'm you.
Your rational mind.
You're having a breakdown a stress response.
Your power is kicking in to save you.
It created me.
You did.
Wha ah And you're British? Like I said, I'm your rational mind.
- And I created you? - Yes.
To help you find a way out of here, before this thing takes control of our body forever.
Okay.
Tricked you.
What? Yeah, I-I got that part, man.
But if you're not the monster, then I'm you.
Your rational mind.
You're having a breakdown a stress response.
Your power is kicking in to save you.
It created me.
You did.
Wha ah And you're British? Like I said, I'm your rational mind.
- And I created you? - Yes.
To help you find a way out of here, before this thing takes control of our body forever.
Okay.
I took that to mean that the other "David" in this scene was just a manifestation of his rational mind, not a distinct personality. So that's how I took the other "Davids" in this episode as well, aspects of his personality, but not distinct personalities.
#23
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Re: Legion (S2E11) -- Season Finale -- "Chapter 19" -- 6/12/18
We'll have to agree to disagree and see where they take it in S3. I suspect we'll see them be more literal with the multiples now that one of the worst has taken over.
#24
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Legion (S2E11) -- Season Finale -- "Chapter 19" -- 6/12/18
A good interview with Noah Hawley about the finale:
http://ew.com/tv/2018/06/12/legion-s...ley-interview/
There's stuff about Syd, the extra episode, Farouk at the end, etc. But this bit about the multiple personalities:
The bit about putting David "through phases," suggests to me that, so far, we haven't seen distinct personalities, and I don't think a separate personality "took over" David at the end of the finale.
He's not yet the "100s of personalities each controlling a specific power" Legion from the comics. They could get there in Season 3, but they're not there yet.
http://ew.com/tv/2018/06/12/legion-s...ley-interview/
There's stuff about Syd, the extra episode, Farouk at the end, etc. But this bit about the multiple personalities:
The David we see at the very end is much closer to the Legion we know in the comics with all the split personalities. Since you’re now two full seasons into this story, has your relationship to the comic books changed at all, in terms of what you do and do not include from the page?
Yeah. The character in the comics, there was a complexity to his origin story and the powers and the way that they work that seemed a hard ask of the audience to say, well, you have these multiple personalities and each one has its own powers. We’re seeing the birth of this character that we may know from the comics, and so the idea that organically we got to a place [where] we had a moment last year where a rational British version of David popped out to help him out in a scenario, and this year we end up with three Davids all arguing different points of view. That may increase in season 3, and of course, if so, creating different versions with different voices. So I want to see if I can put him through phases, I suppose.
Yeah. The character in the comics, there was a complexity to his origin story and the powers and the way that they work that seemed a hard ask of the audience to say, well, you have these multiple personalities and each one has its own powers. We’re seeing the birth of this character that we may know from the comics, and so the idea that organically we got to a place [where] we had a moment last year where a rational British version of David popped out to help him out in a scenario, and this year we end up with three Davids all arguing different points of view. That may increase in season 3, and of course, if so, creating different versions with different voices. So I want to see if I can put him through phases, I suppose.
He's not yet the "100s of personalities each controlling a specific power" Legion from the comics. They could get there in Season 3, but they're not there yet.
#25
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Legion (S2E11) -- Season Finale -- "Chapter 19" -- 6/12/18
Suggests to you... It's always fun to see how two people can read the same paragraph and get two totally different things out of it.