Release List Reviews Shop Join News DVD Giveaways Video Games Advertise
DVD Reviews | Theatrical Reviews | Price Search Buy Stuff Here
DVD Talk
DVD Reviews DVD Talk Headlines HD Reviews


Add to My Yahoo! - RSS 2.0 - RSS 2.0 - DVD Talk Podcast RSS -


Go Back   DVD Talk Forum > Entertainment Discussions > TV Talk

TV Talk Talk about Shows on TV

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-05-17, 07:36 PM   #51
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
The Antipodean's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 5,950
Re: Twin Peaks (S1E17/E18) -- Season Finale -- "The Return - Part 17 & 18" -- 9/3/17

I've still loved this series, no matter how much it meanders, and I actually think ep 18 was a terrific, if horribly bleak, finale.

The NY Times writers had the best single summation of this series for me. I feel like it's a perfect rebuke to a culture of gluttony binges and stale nostalgia. Lynch is a painter, and this show is constructed like a giant piece of abstract art. I absolutely agree it's not for everybody, but I was enthralled. Give me this over Game of Thrones any day.

  Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-17, 08:52 PM   #52
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: The Pacific Northwest
Posts: 3,422
Re: Twin Peaks (S1E17/E18) -- Season Finale -- "The Return - Part 17 & 18" -- 9/3/17

I need to rewatch it all again. But my initial reaction to Episode 18 was disappointment. It felt like Lynch just edited together a bunch of outtakes. The series had lots of moments I didn't care for, but overall I really enjoyed it. In short, the stuff that worked really blew me away, and made up for any little misfires along the way. But that final episode just took all the wind out of the sails.
__________________
My DVD's
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-17, 11:55 PM   #53
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: St Louis, MO
Posts: 5,527
Re: Twin Peaks (S1E17/E18) -- Season Finale -- "The Return - Part 17 & 18" -- 9/3/17

I watched the finale yesterday and have been ruminating on it since then. Here are the conclusions I've come to:

I'm not buying these analyses that suggest The Return is some kind of brilliant deconstruction of television reunions. Even in all the meandering, Lynch includes too many callbacks and moments of fan service for that to be the case. It feels more like it simply doesn't know what it wants to be.

I'm also not that big on the notion that it's the television equivalent of a well-executed abstract painting. If it's an abstract painting, then all the Dougie stuff is like a stick figure comic strip drawn in crayon over the top of the beautifully abstract brush strokes.

Part of the brilliance of the original series (and to a slightly lesser extent, of Fire Walk With Me) is that it blends the everyday, conscious interactions among unique and memorable characters with the more mysterious, esoteric, subconscious elements in a way that feels both striking and oddly synergistic. Even when you can't really connect the dots, something like the original Red Room sequence delivers a jarring and gripping layer that still somehow feels cohesive (not so much narratively, but emotionally or experientially in some way). The Return, in my opinion, isn't nearly as effective at marrying those conscious and unconscious layers.

Dreams are full of incongruity, discontinuity, and uncertainty. But when you're dreaming, you experience those surreal things as if they are a cohesive reality. When Lynch is at his best, in my opinion, he draws the viewer into that experience of being in a dream. The Return falls short of that for me.

While I think The Return is a case of the whole being less than the sum of its parts, some of those parts still represent some of the most memorable and mind-bending sequences of any television series to date: all of episode 8, Bobby responding to the shot fired outside the RR, and the shootout on Dougie's street to name just a few. While I probably won't revisit all of The Return in its entirety, I will revisit some of those sequences again and can appreciate them as standalone vignettes that take place in the Twin Peaks universe.
__________________
--Kevin--
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-17, 10:17 PM   #54
DVD Talk Reviewer
 
Shannon Nutt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 15,451
Re: Twin Peaks (S1E17/E18) -- Season Finale -- "The Return - Part 17 & 18" -- 9/3/17

Quote:
Originally Posted by dex14 View Post
I'm confused. Weren't you saying like two weeks ago that this was the best thing on TV and the only thing you have interest in?
It was the best thing on TV. My dislike of one episode (okay, two - I didn't like 8 much either) doesn't change that opinion. That's why the finale feels even more like a sucker punch.
__________________
http://www.highdefdigest.com/author/shannon-t-nutt.html
XBox Live Gamertag: PittsburghNutt
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-17, 11:11 PM   #55
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
 
caligulathegod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Grove City OH
Posts: 3,663
Re: Twin Peaks (S1E17/E18) -- Season Finale -- "The Return - Part 17 & 18" -- 9/3/17

The whole series was essentially a rumination on Lynch's entire career and art. There were obvious parallels to his other films and paintings. He also was quite emphatic on the theme of dreamers who dream within dreams, but who is the dreamer? The show also became quite meta. The owner of Laura's house was the real owner. The Log Lady and her fate was shared by Catherine Coulson. Audrey was constantly talking about her lover, Billy (could it be Zane from the original series? The clue might be Eddie Vedder performing under his real name and the mention of "Audrey's Dance", which is the actual name of the track). And it goes on.

But the ultimate clue was in Lynch's information dump. He explained that Judy, or jiāodāi, was an experiment and an extreme negative force. It was the "ultimate evil" in Lynch's world. Well, Lynch has been trolling us for years. "We are NOT going to talk about Judy," says Phillip Jeffries. Why not? 交待 or jiāodāi is Chinese for "To Explain." Lynch is notorious for not explaining his art so take it how you will. He purposefully filled this show with Lynchian Red Herrings which had us over-analyzing for weeks. WE were the ones watching the glass box and recording everything instead of just letting it wash over us. It turned out to be the biggest shaggy dog story of all time. Dreams are not meant to be explained.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-17, 10:56 AM   #56
Time Lord
 
Supermallet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Termite Terrace
Posts: 53,222
Re: Twin Peaks (S1E17/E18) -- Season Finale -- "The Return - Part 17 & 18" -- 9/3/17

Quote:
Originally Posted by caligulathegod View Post
The whole series was essentially a rumination on Lynch's entire career and art. There were obvious parallels to his other films and paintings. He also was quite emphatic on the theme of dreamers who dream within dreams, but who is the dreamer? The show also became quite meta. The owner of Laura's house was the real owner. The Log Lady and her fate was shared by Catherine Coulson. Audrey was constantly talking about her lover, Billy (could it be Zane from the original series? The clue might be Eddie Vedder performing under his real name and the mention of "Audrey's Dance", which is the actual name of the track). And it goes on.

But the ultimate clue was in Lynch's information dump. He explained that Judy, or jiāodāi, was an experiment and an extreme negative force. It was the "ultimate evil" in Lynch's world. Well, Lynch has been trolling us for years. "We are NOT going to talk about Judy," says Phillip Jeffries. Why not? 交待 or jiāodāi is Chinese for "To Explain." Lynch is notorious for not explaining his art so take it how you will. He purposefully filled this show with Lynchian Red Herrings which had us over-analyzing for weeks. WE were the ones watching the glass box and recording everything instead of just letting it wash over us. It turned out to be the biggest shaggy dog story of all time. Dreams are not meant to be explained.
I like this take, although I think there are some explanations for what Lynch put on the screen, but not the tidy expositional explanations we expect from narrative fiction.
__________________
Never stop punching fascists.
Stop employing thugs and murderers: Abolish police, abolish the military.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-17, 01:06 PM   #57
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
 
caligulathegod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Grove City OH
Posts: 3,663
Re: Twin Peaks (S1E17/E18) -- Season Finale -- "The Return - Part 17 & 18" -- 9/3/17

I probably should not have implied that it isn't meant to be understood, but that some of it defies explanation.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-17, 01:10 PM   #58
Dan
DVD Talk Legend
 
Dan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: More drinks, more fun!
Posts: 14,483
Re: Twin Peaks (S1E17/E18) -- Season Finale -- "The Return - Part 17 & 18" -- 9/3/17

very interesting stuff. I do wonder if Judy (jiao dai) was intentional all the way back with FWWM, but I like it, as it summarizes his philosophy on talking about his art in general.

The more I think about part 18, the more I like it, aside from the long driving scenes. I'd kill for an additional 15 seconds after the scream & black out.
__________________
"...you've taken a side in an ideological battle, while pretending all the way
that you're simply defending the supposedly neutral value of free speech.
Don't think we don't notice which instances of speech you choose to defend." - Contrapoints
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-17, 03:26 PM   #59
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
 
caligulathegod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Grove City OH
Posts: 3,663
Re: Twin Peaks (S1E17/E18) -- Season Finale -- "The Return - Part 17 & 18" -- 9/3/17

I suspect. He had a fellow artist say the line. Judy has probably been his pet name for the concept all along.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-17, 03:39 PM   #60
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Marina Del Rey, California
Posts: 9,275
Re: Twin Peaks (S1E17/E18) -- Season Finale -- "The Return - Part 17 & 18" -- 9/3/17

Jefferies mentions Judy in FWWM. Judy is also the creature that spits out Bob in episode 8 and the figure in the box in episode 1 (I think). I'm assuming Judy is in Sarah Palmer now which would explain the boxing television loops and why she tried to destroy Laura's photo when Coop saved her.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-17, 04:20 PM   #61
Time Lord
 
Supermallet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Termite Terrace
Posts: 53,222
Re: Twin Peaks (S1E17/E18) -- Season Finale -- "The Return - Part 17 & 18" -- 9/3/17

Quote:
Originally Posted by starseed1981 View Post
Jefferies mentions Judy in FWWM. Judy is also the creature that spits out Bob in episode 8 and the figure in the box in episode 1 (I think). I'm assuming Judy is in Sarah Palmer now which would explain the boxing television loops and why she tried to destroy Laura's photo when Coop saved her.
Not to mention Sarah pulling off her own face and ripping a dude's throat out.
__________________
Never stop punching fascists.
Stop employing thugs and murderers: Abolish police, abolish the military.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-17, 04:52 PM   #62
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Marina Del Rey, California
Posts: 9,275
Re: Twin Peaks (S1E17/E18) -- Season Finale -- "The Return - Part 17 & 18" -- 9/3/17

Oh yeah, totally forgot about that lol
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-17, 05:17 PM   #63
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
 
rocket1312's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,019
Re: Twin Peaks (S1E17/E18) -- Season Finale -- "The Return - Part 17 & 18" -- 9/3/17

As long as you're willing make the effort to put the pieces various pieces together, you can make a sort of sense of everything that happens re:Judy, etc.

What I'm still confused by is the idea that this is all somehow a dream. (Not a new s3 concept by the way. Jeffries talks about living in a dream in FWWM.) If it's all a dream, then who cares? What's the point of any of it? Are the god like beings (Judy, fireman, etc.) outside that dream? Are the final scenes of Cooper and Laura taking place outside of that dream? If so, and if everything that happened prior to the finale was a dream, then why does Laura start screaming at end? Is anyone else bothered that this new season seems to have robbed FWWM of it's more or less happy ending?
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-17, 11:43 PM   #64
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: St Louis, MO
Posts: 5,527
Re: Twin Peaks (S1E17/E18) -- Season Finale -- "The Return - Part 17 & 18" -- 9/3/17

An interesting theory on the finale here, though I find much of it a bit too speculative/reaching:
http://www.waggish.org/2017/twin-peaks-finale/
__________________
--Kevin--
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-17, 09:26 AM   #65
Dan
DVD Talk Legend
 
Dan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: More drinks, more fun!
Posts: 14,483
Re: Twin Peaks (S1E17/E18) -- Season Finale -- "The Return - Part 17 & 18" -- 9/3/17

That's quite comprehensive. It's not perfect, but I think it lays the groundwork for filling in (some of) the rest of the blanks. I think there are things that will never be explained fully, but still "fit" into the overall mystery of it all.
__________________
"...you've taken a side in an ideological battle, while pretending all the way
that you're simply defending the supposedly neutral value of free speech.
Don't think we don't notice which instances of speech you choose to defend." - Contrapoints
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-17, 01:32 PM   #66
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
 
stvn1974's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 3,842
Re: Twin Peaks (S1E17/E18) -- Season Finale -- "The Return - Part 17 & 18" -- 9/3/17

I watched all 18 hours backwards and heard a bunch of satanic messages. Plus Paul McCartney seems to be dead.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-17, 09:55 AM   #67
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: CT
Posts: 5,177
Re: Twin Peaks (S1E17/E18) -- Season Finale -- "The Return - Part 17 & 18" -- 9/3/17

Episodes 17 & 18 of ‘Twin Peaks: the Return’ are meant to be watched in sync

https://medium.com/@onantiad/episode...nc-81352ce38e8
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/mkdev0
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-17, 05:00 PM   #68
Dan
DVD Talk Legend
 
Dan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: More drinks, more fun!
Posts: 14,483
Re: Twin Peaks (S1E17/E18) -- Season Finale -- "The Return - Part 17 & 18" -- 9/3/17

While it's interesting how some stuff lines up (like the final sequence) I highly highly doubt Lynch & Frost would ever want folks to actually watch it that way. Sabrina Sutherland (the producer of the show) flat out said it was not the intent, but she's not Lynch or Frost so I can see why some folks might doubt her.

I think it just speaks more to the idea that the events the episodes may be occurring simultaneously in different timelines or whatever.
I could be wrong, but Lynch doesn't really cut back and forth between different scenes or use split screen to show stuff happening at the same time; he likes to show one scene at a time. So, if two scenes really ARE simultaneous, Lynch might include some hints that suggest as much... but I don't think he'd go so far as to expect viewers to go through the effort of watching two episodes in sync, DSOTM/WoO style.
__________________
"...you've taken a side in an ideological battle, while pretending all the way
that you're simply defending the supposedly neutral value of free speech.
Don't think we don't notice which instances of speech you choose to defend." - Contrapoints
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-17, 11:57 PM   #69
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
 
caligulathegod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Grove City OH
Posts: 3,663
Re: Twin Peaks (S1E17/E18) -- Season Finale -- "The Return - Part 17 & 18" -- 9/3/17

Yeah, if he didn't want chapter stops, he's not going to expect anyone to do that.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-17, 12:25 PM   #70
DVD Talk Legend
 
islandclaws's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Behind the Orange Curtain
Posts: 19,599
Re: Twin Peaks (S1E17/E18) -- Season Finale -- "The Return - Part 17 & 18" -- 9/3/17

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkdevo View Post
Episodes 17 & 18 of ‘Twin Peaks: the Return’ are meant to be watched in sync

https://medium.com/@onantiad/episode...nc-81352ce38e8
No, they aren't. Sabrina Sutherland, the E.P., just did a reddit AMA and said that is definitely NOT the way to watch them.
__________________
DVDAf

Horror Movie Challenge:
2015
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-17, 02:26 PM   #71
Moderator
 
dex14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: NJ
Posts: 17,277
Re: Twin Peaks (S1E17/E18) -- Season Finale -- "The Return - Part 17 & 18" -- 9/3/17

  Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-17, 10:57 AM   #72
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Marina Del Rey, California
Posts: 9,275
Re: Twin Peaks (S1E17/E18) -- Season Finale -- "The Return - Part 17 & 18" -- 9/3/17

Interesting that the box art says "The Third Season" and not "The Final Season".....
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-17, 11:19 AM   #73
Moderator
 
dex14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: NJ
Posts: 17,277
Re: Twin Peaks (S1E17/E18) -- Season Finale -- "The Return - Part 17 & 18" -- 9/3/17

It'll be back.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-17, 11:26 AM   #74
Dan
DVD Talk Legend
 
Dan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: More drinks, more fun!
Posts: 14,483
Re: Twin Peaks (S1E17/E18) -- Season Finale -- "The Return - Part 17 & 18" -- 9/3/17

Quote:
Originally Posted by starseed1981 View Post
Interesting that the box art says "The Third Season" and not "The Final Season".....
Ehh... I think it's just because they made such mistakes before, calling the existing Blu-ray set "The Entire Mystery"
__________________
"...you've taken a side in an ideological battle, while pretending all the way
that you're simply defending the supposedly neutral value of free speech.
Don't think we don't notice which instances of speech you choose to defend." - Contrapoints
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-17, 12:20 PM   #75
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Marina Del Rey, California
Posts: 9,275
Re: Twin Peaks (S1E17/E18) -- Season Finale -- "The Return - Part 17 & 18" -- 9/3/17

Quote:
Originally Posted by islandclaws View Post
No, they aren't. Sabrina Sutherland, the E.P., just did a reddit AMA and said that is definitely NOT the way to watch them.
Her AMA was pretty good. And she more or less confirmed that Frost was only a writer on the first drafts. Interesting that Lynch has never read The Secret History Of Twin Peaks though. I wonder if the upcoming blu-ray will include all the international cuts of the The Return that she mentioned. A 2.5 hour free TV version of it would be scatterbrained as all hell haha.
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:18 AM.


Copyright 2011 DVDTalk.com All Rights Reserved. Privacy Policy and Terms of Use.

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.2.0