Question about the "with"/"and" credits on TV Shows
09-08-14, 06:38 PM
#1
DVD Talk Legend
Thread Starter
Question about the "with"/"and" credits on TV Shows
Over the years, I've been wondering about this. I know for movies, generally when an actor is credited after "with" or "and", they're making a cameo appearance (for something like 5-15 minutes depending), but for TV shows, like "NCIS: LA" and LL Cool J or "Criminal Minds" for Jeanne Tripplehorn and Thomas Gibson, they are just as prominent as their top billed co-stars.
So, does anyone know how or why it works that way?
So, does anyone know how or why it works that way?
09-08-14, 06:44 PM
#2
DVD Talk Limited Edition
Re: Question about the "with"/"and" credits on TV Shows
It's just something actors' agents negotiate to make their actor stand out a little from the rest of the cast. There's also the biggie: "Starring".
09-08-14, 06:46 PM
#3
DVD Talk God
Re: Question about the "with"/"and" credits on TV Shows
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AndStarring
And Starring
When the Title Sequence includes credits, there is a whole mess of jockeying for position that goes on. The dominant position within the credits sequence is either at the very beginning of the list, or at the very end.
As a way to draw special attention to the last actor on the list, their name will often be bracketed with an additional annotation, such as "With", "And", or "And Starring". Sometimes, this would be elaborated even further, giving the name of the character portrayed by the actor, though this type of credit may also be used to hide the actor's name.
In the past, this was reserved for either the star of the show, a cast member who is not part of the "primary" ensemble, or a big name doing a cameo. Over time, as stars and their agents learned about the power of marketing, it has become an increasingly important bargaining point.
Although not done as often these days, "And Introducing" was a common credit on movies, indicating where the company felt they had a potential star on their hands and wanted to ensure everyone remembered that "you saw them here first". Often, these people were never seen or heard from again, and the perception that an "and introducing" credit was a kind of "kiss of death" to a career may explain its disappearance.
The most extreme form of this is the Fake Guest Star. Compare Billed Above The Title, when special attention is drawn to the first actor in the cast list. Very common in All-Star Cast fare. Contrast with And Zoidberg
And Starring
When the Title Sequence includes credits, there is a whole mess of jockeying for position that goes on. The dominant position within the credits sequence is either at the very beginning of the list, or at the very end.
As a way to draw special attention to the last actor on the list, their name will often be bracketed with an additional annotation, such as "With", "And", or "And Starring". Sometimes, this would be elaborated even further, giving the name of the character portrayed by the actor, though this type of credit may also be used to hide the actor's name.
In the past, this was reserved for either the star of the show, a cast member who is not part of the "primary" ensemble, or a big name doing a cameo. Over time, as stars and their agents learned about the power of marketing, it has become an increasingly important bargaining point.
Although not done as often these days, "And Introducing" was a common credit on movies, indicating where the company felt they had a potential star on their hands and wanted to ensure everyone remembered that "you saw them here first". Often, these people were never seen or heard from again, and the perception that an "and introducing" credit was a kind of "kiss of death" to a career may explain its disappearance.
The most extreme form of this is the Fake Guest Star. Compare Billed Above The Title, when special attention is drawn to the first actor in the cast list. Very common in All-Star Cast fare. Contrast with And Zoidberg
09-08-14, 06:50 PM
#4
DVD Talk God
Re: Question about the "with"/"and" credits on TV Shows
Chris O'Donnell gets top billing on NCIS: Los Angeles, but rather than putting LL Cool J right after him, which may make some people think he's not as important a star on the show, the "And" LL Cool J part at the end of the opening credits helps give him the same amount of importance as O'Donnell. As the above explanation states, it's all with how their agent negotiates their deals.
Patrick Dempsey is one of the many leads of Grey's Anatomy and he gets that same "And Patrick Dempsey" billing as well.
Some people were probably surprised that Donnie Wahlberg got top billing on Blue Bloods over Tom Selleck. But Wahlberg is the star of the show and gets the most screentime. But Selleck being who he is, got the "And" credit to help signify that he's also on important member of the cast.
Patrick Dempsey is one of the many leads of Grey's Anatomy and he gets that same "And Patrick Dempsey" billing as well.
Some people were probably surprised that Donnie Wahlberg got top billing on Blue Bloods over Tom Selleck. But Wahlberg is the star of the show and gets the most screentime. But Selleck being who he is, got the "And" credit to help signify that he's also on important member of the cast.
09-08-14, 07:36 PM
#5
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Question about the "with"/"and" credits on TV Shows
"With Michael Richards and Jason Alexander as George" along with LL Cool J immediately came to mind for me.
09-08-14, 07:43 PM
#6
DVD Talk Legend
Thread Starter
09-09-14, 04:17 PM
#8
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Re: Question about the "with"/"and" credits on TV Shows
I'd always wondered if there were SAG rules giving a bigger paycheck for special billings. If several known stars of equal stature appear in a Columbo but the one at the end with "Special Guest Star" got more money.
Jonathan Harris only signed on to do the Lost in Space pilot. When show was picked up he agreed to do it only if he was billed as "special guest star". I always wondered about that one since he's in every one.
The old pressbooks for theatrical features would rate all the credits in a newspaper ad, which usually mirrored the poster.
Title 100%
Name same size font as title 100%
Name above title 100%
All other credits were varying percentages less than 100.
Jonathan Harris only signed on to do the Lost in Space pilot. When show was picked up he agreed to do it only if he was billed as "special guest star". I always wondered about that one since he's in every one.
The old pressbooks for theatrical features would rate all the credits in a newspaper ad, which usually mirrored the poster.
Title 100%
Name same size font as title 100%
Name above title 100%
All other credits were varying percentages less than 100.
09-09-14, 04:44 PM
#10
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Question about the "with"/"and" credits on TV Shows
The various guilds in Hollywood all have their rules for credits but individuals can negotiate for better credit placement.
09-09-14, 06:21 PM
#11
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Question about the "with"/"and" credits on TV Shows
Didn't this all start when Jonathan Harris got the "Special Guest Star" billing every week on LOST IN SPACE?
I think I read somewhere that he was the first series regular to be given special billing.
EDIT: I see rw2516 beat me to the punch...still, I'm wondering if anyone knows if Harris was the first TV regular with such billing.
I think I read somewhere that he was the first series regular to be given special billing.
EDIT: I see rw2516 beat me to the punch...still, I'm wondering if anyone knows if Harris was the first TV regular with such billing.
09-10-14, 04:36 AM
#12
DVD Talk Limited Edition
Re: Question about the "with"/"and" credits on TV Shows
Yes, he was.
09-10-14, 07:59 AM
#13
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
Re: Question about the "with"/"and" credits on TV Shows
http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/...d.php?t=308713
A 'Special Guest Star' is born
Then he said, "I suppose you want billing!" I said, "Mr. Allen, it is customary for an artist in my position to get billing." "What did he say La Tourette?" "He wants billing." That's the craziest thing I've ever experienced in this business. And Irwin said, "Let me tell you, I've signed everybody in the show. They're signed, sealed, delivered and you're going to have to be LAST on the crawl!" My mind said, "Go f@#% yourself!" [Laughter.] Last indeed! Not me! So, I said, "I'm afraid, Mr. Allen, that will make me very uncomfortable." And he said, "Well, let me tell ya, you take this script, you go home and you look at it. You call me back and you tell me about billing. I'm busy! GET OUT!!!" I backed out of the office and thought I'd break my neck because I was so afraid to turn around! [Laughter.] Amazing!
I went home and I read the script. I had developed rather good instincts about scripts. Having done so many. I read it and I said, "I think this is a goodie!" What to do about last position? Wasn't going to do it. What to do? What to do? I want the show! What to do? Ah! I called a friend of mine who was head of casting at NBC and I asked, "Have you ever given billing, in all of the series that you've done, to somebody for whom it will say, every week, Special Guest Star Jonathan Harris?" He said, "Don't be silly! I wouldn't give billing like that! That's ridiculous billing! It doesn't exist!" And at that time, it did not exist. I said, "THANK YOU! That's all I need to know!"
I called Allen and said, "I solved your billing problem." "Eh? What?," said Mr. Charm. I said, "I will accept last position: Special Guest Star Jonathan Harris." Well, the next 20 minutes you would not have believed! "YOU GODDAMN ACTORS YOU CAN'T ACT ANYWAY! NONE OF YOU ARE WORTH A NICKEL AND I'VE GOTTA PAY ALL YOU BASTARDS!!!" And on and on. [Laughter.] I didn't open my mouth! I just sat there and listened. "YOU CAN'T ACT ANY OF YOU. YOU'RE THE WORST OF ALL, YOU CAN'T ACT AT ALL!!!" On and on. I took a deep breath and said, "OK!" and hung up. Amazing! That was the first time that kind of outvie billing occurred. Now, of course, billing is total madness: "With the Special Appearance of ... With the Appearance of ... With a Cameo Appearance of ... " I started that whole crap! [Laughter.]
Last edited by Doug Heffernan; 09-10-14 at 08:07 AM.
09-10-14, 11:24 AM
#14
DVD Talk Limited Edition
Re: Question about the "with"/"and" credits on TV Shows
http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/...d.php?t=308713
A 'Special Guest Star' is born
Then he said, "I suppose you want billing!" I said, "Mr. Allen, it is customary for an artist in my position to get billing." "What did he say La Tourette?" "He wants billing." That's the craziest thing I've ever experienced in this business. And Irwin said, "Let me tell you, I've signed everybody in the show. They're signed, sealed, delivered and you're going to have to be LAST on the crawl!" My mind said, "Go f@#% yourself!" [Laughter.] Last indeed! Not me! So, I said, "I'm afraid, Mr. Allen, that will make me very uncomfortable." And he said, "Well, let me tell ya, you take this script, you go home and you look at it. You call me back and you tell me about billing. I'm busy! GET OUT!!!" I backed out of the office and thought I'd break my neck because I was so afraid to turn around! [Laughter.] Amazing!
I went home and I read the script. I had developed rather good instincts about scripts. Having done so many. I read it and I said, "I think this is a goodie!" What to do about last position? Wasn't going to do it. What to do? What to do? I want the show! What to do? Ah! I called a friend of mine who was head of casting at NBC and I asked, "Have you ever given billing, in all of the series that you've done, to somebody for whom it will say, every week, Special Guest Star Jonathan Harris?" He said, "Don't be silly! I wouldn't give billing like that! That's ridiculous billing! It doesn't exist!" And at that time, it did not exist. I said, "THANK YOU! That's all I need to know!"
I called Allen and said, "I solved your billing problem." "Eh? What?," said Mr. Charm. I said, "I will accept last position: Special Guest Star Jonathan Harris." Well, the next 20 minutes you would not have believed! "YOU GODDAMN ACTORS YOU CAN'T ACT ANYWAY! NONE OF YOU ARE WORTH A NICKEL AND I'VE GOTTA PAY ALL YOU BASTARDS!!!" And on and on. [Laughter.] I didn't open my mouth! I just sat there and listened. "YOU CAN'T ACT ANY OF YOU. YOU'RE THE WORST OF ALL, YOU CAN'T ACT AT ALL!!!" On and on. I took a deep breath and said, "OK!" and hung up. Amazing! That was the first time that kind of outvie billing occurred. Now, of course, billing is total madness: "With the Special Appearance of ... With the Appearance of ... With a Cameo Appearance of ... " I started that whole crap! [Laughter.]
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09-10-14, 01:57 PM
#15
DVD Talk Reviewer & TOAT Winner
Re: Question about the "with"/"and" credits on TV Shows
And Jerry Mathers as The Beaver.
09-11-14, 01:40 PM
#16
Senior Member
Re: Question about the "with"/"and" credits on TV Shows
On Land of the Giants (another Irwin Allen series) the last actor credit read Special Guest Star Kurt Kasznar, every week. Kasznar's character, Fitzhugh, was similar to Dr. Smith on Lost in Space.
09-11-14, 02:00 PM
#17
DVD Talk Limited Edition
Re: Question about the "with"/"and" credits on TV Shows
with special guest star Heather Locklear.
She must have that in all her contracts.
She must have that in all her contracts.
