Doctor Who (BBC1 and BBCA) -- Series 6 Thread -- Premieres 4/23/2011
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#827
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Re: Doctor Who -- The Wedding of River Song -- 10/1/11
I was thinking that the start of the season was an alternate timeline, and this one might be the real one, because the Doctor is supposed to make it to the fields of Trenzalor, at the fall of the Eleventh, blah blah, in the real timeline, which causes the fall of the Silence.
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Re: Doctor Who -- The Wedding of River Song -- 10/1/11
That was extremely disappointing. Moffat didn't answer any of the questions he had raised, and chose to raise new ones instead (like Lost!).
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Re: Doctor Who -- The Wedding of River Song -- 10/1/11
What questions did he not answer? I thought most got covered? I only had a couple but in the grand scheme of things, it makes no deference.
#830
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Re: Doctor Who -- The Wedding of River Song -- 10/1/11
I was really disappointed in this episode. Aside from the robot person, they could have tied this up in episode 3. Instead, they dragged out some huge mystery across the series for no reason. And for some reason, the Doctor should never ask who he is? Just weird and doesn't feel like it was thought through (I know that sounds un-Moffat like). I mean, why the "marriage"?
Aside from The God Complex and Closing Time I didn't care for this series at all.
Aside from The God Complex and Closing Time I didn't care for this series at all.
#831
Re: Doctor Who -- The Wedding of River Song -- 10/1/11
I watched it again. Still sucked. I hate the whole concept of River Song. I fail to see any chemistry between her and the Doctor. This also sort of taints the Doctor and his future companions a bit. Part of the fun has been the undercurrent sexual chemistry, or even the lack of from the Doctor. With him being married, well, shame on him for having sexy sidekicks.
And, it is odd to now look at Amy as his mother-in-law and not in an amusing way.
And, it is odd to now look at Amy as his mother-in-law and not in an amusing way.
#832
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Re: Doctor Who -- The Wedding of River Song -- 10/1/11
#833
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Re: Doctor Who -- The Wedding of River Song -- 10/1/11
When the timeline reset, seasons 1 and 5 never happened, so if you think about it, this is actually only the first time the reset button has been pushed.
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Re: Doctor Who -- The Wedding of River Song -- 10/1/11
I thought that the final show was less than the sum of its parts. Some of those parts were very enjoyable e.g. the cars suspended from hot air balloons, the carnivorous skulls, the train crossing into the pyramids etc etc.
However, at the start of the show when I saw the "previously on DW" bit featuring the Teselecta, I cringed and guessed the likely end. I also cringed at the incongruous "lovey-dovey" bits and the "Doctor... Who? Doctor... WHO‽" utterance.
I'll watch the Confidential episode tonight to see whether it ties up any of what I perceived to be glitches/plot-holes and/or hints at what is in store for the future...
However, at the start of the show when I saw the "previously on DW" bit featuring the Teselecta, I cringed and guessed the likely end. I also cringed at the incongruous "lovey-dovey" bits and the "Doctor... Who? Doctor... WHO‽" utterance.
I'll watch the Confidential episode tonight to see whether it ties up any of what I perceived to be glitches/plot-holes and/or hints at what is in store for the future...
#836
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Re: Doctor Who -- The Wedding of River Song -- 10/1/11
I watched it again. Still sucked. I hate the whole concept of River Song. I fail to see any chemistry between her and the Doctor. This also sort of taints the Doctor and his future companions a bit. Part of the fun has been the undercurrent sexual chemistry, or even the lack of from the Doctor. With him being married, well, shame on him for having sexy sidekicks.
And, it is odd to now look at Amy as his mother-in-law and not in an amusing way.
And, it is odd to now look at Amy as his mother-in-law and not in an amusing way.
In a nutshell, here's what we found out about River Song in tonight's episode:
The Silence spent years and all of the considerable brain-wiping powers brainwashing River Song to kill the Doctor, but instead of killing him, she fell in love with him. As she puts it, "It was such a basic mistake, wasn't it, Madame Kovarian? Take a child, raise her into a perfect psychopath, introduce her to the Doctor... Who else was I going to fall in love with?" So her love for the Doctor is actually a reflection of her broken psyche.
And yet, even though River technically is the one who "kills" the Doctor, it's actually the suit that does all the work. She says, "The suit's in control. I can't stop it." Which makes you wonder why they didn't just send an empty suit after the Doctor in the first place — except that I think it has to do with River having special timey-wimey powers. (More on that in a minute.) River does manage to take control over the suit and discharge the weapons systems, leaving it powerless — and creating a weird alternate universe where all of time is happening at once, and the universe is threatened with disintegration.
River loves the Doctor so much, she's willing to sacrifice the entire universe for him — which is the opposite of what the Doctor stands for. In fact, it's a weird kind of love, that is willing to destroy the loved one's legacy. (Leaving aside the fact that if the universe dies, River and the Doctor won't have any place to share their love in.) The scene where River says, "You are loved so much by so many and so much, and by no-one more than me" is lovely — except for that line, which is either hideously overwritten or overacted, maybe both.
So in order to get River to restart the universe and set things right, the Doctor has to marry her — you'll notice the Doctor never says he loves her, and he makes fun of her for saying she loves him. Soon afterwards, the Doctor tells River, "I don't want to marry you." And then, right before he does marry her, he tells her, "You embarrass me," and he genuinely seems to be full of loathing for her in that moment. During the actual quickie wedding ceremony, River asks, "What am I doing?" and the Doctor replies, "as you're told." Awwww... so romantic. Finally, the Doctor tells her, "Now you're the woman who marries me," as if she's won the jackpot. (Plus of course, the wedding happened in a bubble universe that was erased.)
So what does River get for marrying the Doctor and taking the fall for his fake murder? She gets locked up in Stormcage for almost the rest of her life — apparently she gets out, in time to die in "Forest of the Dead." She's not only given up all her regenerations to bring the Doctor to life and given her final life to save him, she's also agreed to be locked away in prison and reviled as one of history's greatest criminals, just to help the Doctor lower his profile a bit. (Because even if the Doctor had to appear to die by that lakeside to safeguard the "fixed point in time," there's no law that says he couldn't show up at River's trial and say "Hello, it's me. Actually didn't die. Thanks.")
As a consolation prize, River gets to leave her cell every night and go traveling with the Doctor, in a series of adventures that we'll never get to see — since apparently, they all happened in the gap between "The God Complex" and "Closing Time." (Remember, in "The Impossible Astronaut," the Doctor who meets River in Utah has already lived through all the adventures in her magic diary.)
I'm sure we'll see River Song again, but I'm also sure that her story is basically played out. We've seen her birth and her death, and we've apparently gotten answers to all the major questions about her. And honestly, her character has lost most of its appeal at this point — she's now the psychopath who blackmailed the Doctor into marrying her by holding the universe for ransom, and then took the fall for him. Once she was locked up for a crime that the Doctor basically framed her for, he took pity on her and led her on some fun adventures.
The Silence spent years and all of the considerable brain-wiping powers brainwashing River Song to kill the Doctor, but instead of killing him, she fell in love with him. As she puts it, "It was such a basic mistake, wasn't it, Madame Kovarian? Take a child, raise her into a perfect psychopath, introduce her to the Doctor... Who else was I going to fall in love with?" So her love for the Doctor is actually a reflection of her broken psyche.
And yet, even though River technically is the one who "kills" the Doctor, it's actually the suit that does all the work. She says, "The suit's in control. I can't stop it." Which makes you wonder why they didn't just send an empty suit after the Doctor in the first place — except that I think it has to do with River having special timey-wimey powers. (More on that in a minute.) River does manage to take control over the suit and discharge the weapons systems, leaving it powerless — and creating a weird alternate universe where all of time is happening at once, and the universe is threatened with disintegration.
River loves the Doctor so much, she's willing to sacrifice the entire universe for him — which is the opposite of what the Doctor stands for. In fact, it's a weird kind of love, that is willing to destroy the loved one's legacy. (Leaving aside the fact that if the universe dies, River and the Doctor won't have any place to share their love in.) The scene where River says, "You are loved so much by so many and so much, and by no-one more than me" is lovely — except for that line, which is either hideously overwritten or overacted, maybe both.
So in order to get River to restart the universe and set things right, the Doctor has to marry her — you'll notice the Doctor never says he loves her, and he makes fun of her for saying she loves him. Soon afterwards, the Doctor tells River, "I don't want to marry you." And then, right before he does marry her, he tells her, "You embarrass me," and he genuinely seems to be full of loathing for her in that moment. During the actual quickie wedding ceremony, River asks, "What am I doing?" and the Doctor replies, "as you're told." Awwww... so romantic. Finally, the Doctor tells her, "Now you're the woman who marries me," as if she's won the jackpot. (Plus of course, the wedding happened in a bubble universe that was erased.)
So what does River get for marrying the Doctor and taking the fall for his fake murder? She gets locked up in Stormcage for almost the rest of her life — apparently she gets out, in time to die in "Forest of the Dead." She's not only given up all her regenerations to bring the Doctor to life and given her final life to save him, she's also agreed to be locked away in prison and reviled as one of history's greatest criminals, just to help the Doctor lower his profile a bit. (Because even if the Doctor had to appear to die by that lakeside to safeguard the "fixed point in time," there's no law that says he couldn't show up at River's trial and say "Hello, it's me. Actually didn't die. Thanks.")
As a consolation prize, River gets to leave her cell every night and go traveling with the Doctor, in a series of adventures that we'll never get to see — since apparently, they all happened in the gap between "The God Complex" and "Closing Time." (Remember, in "The Impossible Astronaut," the Doctor who meets River in Utah has already lived through all the adventures in her magic diary.)
I'm sure we'll see River Song again, but I'm also sure that her story is basically played out. We've seen her birth and her death, and we've apparently gotten answers to all the major questions about her. And honestly, her character has lost most of its appeal at this point — she's now the psychopath who blackmailed the Doctor into marrying her by holding the universe for ransom, and then took the fall for him. Once she was locked up for a crime that the Doctor basically framed her for, he took pity on her and led her on some fun adventures.
Link if you're interested in the entire piece - http://io9.com/5844553/why-this-year...han-last-years .
#837
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Re: Doctor Who -- The Wedding of River Song -- 10/1/11
At least in this one there wasn't really a reset to the whole season. Only (some of) the events of the episode were reset.
Last edited by orangecrush; 10-03-11 at 10:08 AM.
#838
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Doctor Who -- The Wedding of River Song -- 10/1/11
What really irritates me about the grand scheme of things is that River wasn't even needed to kill the Doctor. She flat out states that the suit is working automatically and she has no control over it. So anyone or no one could have been in the suit and it would have made no difference whatsoever. Which begs the questions "why brainwash River?" and "why fashion her into the ultimate weapon to kill the Doctor?"
#839
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Re: Doctor Who -- The Wedding of River Song -- 10/1/11
What really irritates me about the grand scheme of things is that River wasn't even needed to kill the Doctor. She flat out states that the suit is working automatically and she has no control over it. So anyone or no one could have been in the suit and it would have made no difference whatsoever. Which begs the questions "why brainwash River?" and "why fashion her into the ultimate weapon to kill the Doctor?"
#840
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Re: Doctor Who -- The Wedding of River Song -- 10/1/11
Here's the short from the grade school class that won the contest. Pretty good!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjZny...layer_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjZny...layer_embedded
#841
Re: Doctor Who -- The Wedding of River Song -- 10/1/11
I feel like I'm missing something in regards to Amy and Rory's timeline. Aren't they in some sort of time loop?
They begin this season meeting up with the future Doctor and witnessing his death. And then they meet up with the younger (current) version of the Doctor and continue with him throughout the season until they are dropped off by him. Only to be picked up by his future self again and witness his death. This would seem to happen continuously.
Only, this last time they don't meet up with the younger Doctor. They hang out drinking with River.
Am I missing something?
They begin this season meeting up with the future Doctor and witnessing his death. And then they meet up with the younger (current) version of the Doctor and continue with him throughout the season until they are dropped off by him. Only to be picked up by his future self again and witness his death. This would seem to happen continuously.
Only, this last time they don't meet up with the younger Doctor. They hang out drinking with River.
Am I missing something?
#842
Re: Doctor Who -- The Wedding of River Song -- 10/1/11
I feel like I'm missing something in regards to Amy and Rory's timeline. Aren't they in some sort of time loop?
They begin this season meeting up with the future Doctor and witnessing his death. And then they meet up with the younger (current) version of the Doctor and continue with him throughout the season until they are dropped off by him. Only to be picked up by his future self again and witness his death. This would seem to happen continuously.
Only, this last time they don't meet up with the younger Doctor. They hang out drinking with River.
Am I missing something?
They begin this season meeting up with the future Doctor and witnessing his death. And then they meet up with the younger (current) version of the Doctor and continue with him throughout the season until they are dropped off by him. Only to be picked up by his future self again and witness his death. This would seem to happen continuously.
Only, this last time they don't meet up with the younger Doctor. They hang out drinking with River.
Am I missing something?
I don't think they were in a time loop at the beginning, but, to be fair, I haven't paid that close of attention to the details. I was originally watching the series, you know, for fun and amusement. I didn't realize I needed to keep notes. The story kept getting more and more complicated and less and less fun. I'll be curious to see what others say.
#843
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Re: Doctor Who -- The Wedding of River Song -- 10/1/11
I thought it was pretty clear that the drinks with River took place after Lake Silencio.
#844
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Re: Doctor Who -- The Wedding of River Song -- 10/1/11
Well, I have to agree, despite some cool moments, this episode was a letdown dramatically and logically. I feel like Moffat let this season get away from him. I never thought making River be Melody was a good idea, but gave Moffat the benefit of the doubt since that was the mid-season revelation, and thought he was going to go somewhere better with it than he ultimately did. I enjoyed Let's Kill Hitler but River didn't need to be Melody to make that episode work.
And seriously, the question is "Doctor Who"? It's like Moffat is thumbing his nose at the audience now.
The best episodes of this season were all standalone, like The Black Spot, The Doctor's Wife, The Girl Who Waited, and Closing Time. I don't know what happened to Moffat this season, but I hope he can wrangle things back into shape.
The one moment I really loved, though, was Rory standing at the door with the gun and the eyepatch frying him. Made me tear up. And then Amy saying "We should get a drink sometime. And get married" made it perfect.
And seriously, the question is "Doctor Who"? It's like Moffat is thumbing his nose at the audience now.
The best episodes of this season were all standalone, like The Black Spot, The Doctor's Wife, The Girl Who Waited, and Closing Time. I don't know what happened to Moffat this season, but I hope he can wrangle things back into shape.
The one moment I really loved, though, was Rory standing at the door with the gun and the eyepatch frying him. Made me tear up. And then Amy saying "We should get a drink sometime. And get married" made it perfect.
#846
Re: Doctor Who -- The Wedding of River Song -- 10/1/11
Maybe a better question would be, what is the earliest part of this story/season for Amy and Rory chronologically speaking? It really can't be the first episode, because those events happened after the Doctor dropped them off later in the season in "God Complex", from their perspective.
#849
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Re: Doctor Who -- The Wedding of River Song -- 10/1/11
Those with questions on the river doctor timeline find the confidential from this episode. They may even have just the River timeline on you tube.
Really explains alot. I'm not as confused as some seem to be. I still want to know when Amy was snatched. The Doctor said it might have been before they went to america but we dont know.
River Song's Timeline
Really explains alot. I'm not as confused as some seem to be. I still want to know when Amy was snatched. The Doctor said it might have been before they went to america but we dont know.
River Song's Timeline
Last edited by draven31; 10-03-11 at 10:48 PM.
#850
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Re: Doctor Who -- The Wedding of River Song -- 10/1/11
I think you guys are mixing up drinks. Are you talking about the diner when the Doctor comes out of the back, or Amy and River having drinks in the backyard?
Do we know how River was able to get to the backyard? You heard something off screen - wrist device like Captain Jack's?
We still don't know how she was able to show up after the Big Bang at Amy's wedding.
Do we know how River was able to get to the backyard? You heard something off screen - wrist device like Captain Jack's?
We still don't know how she was able to show up after the Big Bang at Amy's wedding.