Lost -- "Recon" -- 3/16/10
03-21-10, 11:36 PM
#301
Re: Lost -- "Recon" -- 3/16/10
Also, the main problem I have with BTTF2 is that they cause a paradox (assuming the non-existence of the multiverse, which we must, considering Marty began to fade out of existence himself). At the end of the first movie, Marty goes back to 1985 and fails to arrive at the Twin Pines Mall in time to save Doc from the Libyans. He goes down to the body, sobbing and Doc sits up, revealing the bulletproof vest and taking out Marty's note, saying, "I figured....what the hell."
We are left to assume that after Marty returned to his own time following the lightning strike on the clock tower, Doc gathered up the pieces of the note, taped them together and found out about his own future, thus allowing him to prevent his own death.
However, at the end of BTTF2, in 1955, Marty receives the telegram from Doc in 1885 and says, "There's only one man who can help me." We see Marty from BTTF1 driving the DeLorean, hitting the cable at the moment of the lightning strike to return to 1985. Doc celebrates and as he turns around to gather up the equipment (and as we assumed before, the pieces of the note) Marty from BTTF2 runs around the corner yelling for Doc and announces, "I'm back. I'm back from the future." Doc passes out. He does not awaken until the next morning.
This creates the paradox. I can buy a movie where they are traveling all throughout time. What I cannot buy is the fact that a guy rips up a note in a windstorm powerful enough to knock a branch off a tree which knocks apart the cable from the clock tower down to where it crosses the street, passes out that whole night while it rains and blows the pieces of the note all to hell. Then, the next day when he wakes up, he spends the day uncovering the DeLorean with Marty and getting it out of the cave. We know this takes all day, because it is nighttime in the graveyard when Doc sees his own tombstone. They research that night his death. The next day, Doc puts new tires on the DeLorean and sends Marty back to 1885. So, I'm supposed to believe that Doc rips up the note, waits 36 hours and then finds all the pieces? While these things spent at least 12 of those hours in the horribly gusting wind and rain? I think not. Therefore, he cannot prevent his own death and get trapped in 1885 in the first place. If he can't do that, then he does find the pieces and prevent his death thus going to the past and stopping himself from preventing his death. Never ending logic loop; paradox.
Another thing I never understood was the ripple effect. Marty is immediately affected by the fact his parents may not kiss at the dance, but he isn't immediately affected by Biff's travel to 1955 from 2015? Why does he remember Clara Clayton died in the ravine when the ripple effect obviously changed time enough that Doc saved her and she was with him to bury him as Doc's beloved? This indicates the multiverse does exist, but only sometimes...? It should indicate that Marty and Doc, by traveling, exist outside of time, but then his hand should not have faded. Biff should not have ceased to exist, either.
I love these movies, but they're all fucked up.
We are left to assume that after Marty returned to his own time following the lightning strike on the clock tower, Doc gathered up the pieces of the note, taped them together and found out about his own future, thus allowing him to prevent his own death.
However, at the end of BTTF2, in 1955, Marty receives the telegram from Doc in 1885 and says, "There's only one man who can help me." We see Marty from BTTF1 driving the DeLorean, hitting the cable at the moment of the lightning strike to return to 1985. Doc celebrates and as he turns around to gather up the equipment (and as we assumed before, the pieces of the note) Marty from BTTF2 runs around the corner yelling for Doc and announces, "I'm back. I'm back from the future." Doc passes out. He does not awaken until the next morning.
This creates the paradox. I can buy a movie where they are traveling all throughout time. What I cannot buy is the fact that a guy rips up a note in a windstorm powerful enough to knock a branch off a tree which knocks apart the cable from the clock tower down to where it crosses the street, passes out that whole night while it rains and blows the pieces of the note all to hell. Then, the next day when he wakes up, he spends the day uncovering the DeLorean with Marty and getting it out of the cave. We know this takes all day, because it is nighttime in the graveyard when Doc sees his own tombstone. They research that night his death. The next day, Doc puts new tires on the DeLorean and sends Marty back to 1885. So, I'm supposed to believe that Doc rips up the note, waits 36 hours and then finds all the pieces? While these things spent at least 12 of those hours in the horribly gusting wind and rain? I think not. Therefore, he cannot prevent his own death and get trapped in 1885 in the first place. If he can't do that, then he does find the pieces and prevent his death thus going to the past and stopping himself from preventing his death. Never ending logic loop; paradox.
Another thing I never understood was the ripple effect. Marty is immediately affected by the fact his parents may not kiss at the dance, but he isn't immediately affected by Biff's travel to 1955 from 2015? Why does he remember Clara Clayton died in the ravine when the ripple effect obviously changed time enough that Doc saved her and she was with him to bury him as Doc's beloved? This indicates the multiverse does exist, but only sometimes...? It should indicate that Marty and Doc, by traveling, exist outside of time, but then his hand should not have faded. Biff should not have ceased to exist, either.
I love these movies, but they're all fucked up.
Last edited by DarkestPhoenix; 03-22-10 at 12:19 AM.
03-22-10, 02:06 AM
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Re: Lost -- "Recon" -- 3/16/10
Also, the main problem I have with BTTF2 is that they cause a paradox (assuming the non-existence of the multiverse, which we must, considering Marty began to fade out of existence himself). At the end of the first movie, Marty goes back to 1985 and fails to arrive at the Twin Pines Mall in time to save Doc from the Libyans. He goes down to the body, sobbing and Doc sits up, revealing the bulletproof vest and taking out Marty's note, saying, "I figured....what the hell."
We are left to assume that after Marty returned to his own time following the lightning strike on the clock tower, Doc gathered up the pieces of the note, taped them together and found out about his own future, thus allowing him to prevent his own death.
However, at the end of BTTF2, in 1955, Marty receives the telegram from Doc in 1885 and says, "There's only one man who can help me." We see Marty from BTTF1 driving the DeLorean, hitting the cable at the moment of the lightning strike to return to 1985. Doc celebrates and as he turns around to gather up the equipment (and as we assumed before, the pieces of the note) Marty from BTTF2 runs around the corner yelling for Doc and announces, "I'm back. I'm back from the future." Doc passes out. He does not awaken until the next morning.
This creates the paradox. I can buy a movie where they are traveling all throughout time. What I cannot buy is the fact that a guy rips up a note in a windstorm powerful enough to knock a branch off a tree which knocks apart the cable from the clock tower down to where it crosses the street, passes out that whole night while it rains and blows the pieces of the note all to hell. Then, the next day when he wakes up, he spends the day uncovering the DeLorean with Marty and getting it out of the cave. We know this takes all day, because it is nighttime in the graveyard when Doc sees his own tombstone. They research that night his death. The next day, Doc puts new tires on the DeLorean and sends Marty back to 1885. So, I'm supposed to believe that Doc rips up the note, waits 36 hours and then finds all the pieces? While these things spent at least 12 of those hours in the horribly gusting wind and rain? I think not. Therefore, he cannot prevent his own death and get trapped in 1885 in the first place. If he can't do that, then he does find the pieces and prevent his death thus going to the past and stopping himself from preventing his death. Never ending logic loop; paradox.
We are left to assume that after Marty returned to his own time following the lightning strike on the clock tower, Doc gathered up the pieces of the note, taped them together and found out about his own future, thus allowing him to prevent his own death.
However, at the end of BTTF2, in 1955, Marty receives the telegram from Doc in 1885 and says, "There's only one man who can help me." We see Marty from BTTF1 driving the DeLorean, hitting the cable at the moment of the lightning strike to return to 1985. Doc celebrates and as he turns around to gather up the equipment (and as we assumed before, the pieces of the note) Marty from BTTF2 runs around the corner yelling for Doc and announces, "I'm back. I'm back from the future." Doc passes out. He does not awaken until the next morning.
This creates the paradox. I can buy a movie where they are traveling all throughout time. What I cannot buy is the fact that a guy rips up a note in a windstorm powerful enough to knock a branch off a tree which knocks apart the cable from the clock tower down to where it crosses the street, passes out that whole night while it rains and blows the pieces of the note all to hell. Then, the next day when he wakes up, he spends the day uncovering the DeLorean with Marty and getting it out of the cave. We know this takes all day, because it is nighttime in the graveyard when Doc sees his own tombstone. They research that night his death. The next day, Doc puts new tires on the DeLorean and sends Marty back to 1885. So, I'm supposed to believe that Doc rips up the note, waits 36 hours and then finds all the pieces? While these things spent at least 12 of those hours in the horribly gusting wind and rain? I think not. Therefore, he cannot prevent his own death and get trapped in 1885 in the first place. If he can't do that, then he does find the pieces and prevent his death thus going to the past and stopping himself from preventing his death. Never ending logic loop; paradox.
Another thing I never understood was the ripple effect. Marty is immediately affected by the fact his parents may not kiss at the dance, but he isn't immediately affected by Biff's travel to 1955 from 2015? Why does he remember Clara Clayton died in the ravine when the ripple effect obviously changed time enough that Doc saved her and she was with him to bury him as Doc's beloved? This indicates the multiverse does exist, but only sometimes...? It should indicate that Marty and Doc, by traveling, exist outside of time, but then his hand should not have faded. Biff should not have ceased to exist, either.
I love these movies, but they're all fucked up.
I love these movies, but they're all fucked up.
In response to Calhoun, I never said the bomb created two timelines, I said it branched off of the main timeline like in BTTF2 as seen on Doc's blackboard.
Past = 1977
1985 = 2007
1985A = No Crash 2004
F = Future
03-22-10, 11:46 AM
#303
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Re: Lost -- "Recon" -- 3/16/10
did fake Locke seem like he was embarrased when he told James that he was "the black smoke thing" ?
seems like an awesome power imo to have when you need to get somewhere fast and kill people
maybe he was cursed and turned into the smoke monster at some point for something he did
seems like an awesome power imo to have when you need to get somewhere fast and kill people
maybe he was cursed and turned into the smoke monster at some point for something he did
03-22-10, 11:58 AM
#304
Moderator
Re: Lost -- "Recon" -- 3/16/10
There are generally two schools of thought when it comes to time travel into the past. Let's assume you are able to travel back in time, and you do so with the goal of murdering your grandfather before he conceives your father (all in the name of science, of course):
Theory #1: "What happened, happened" -- despite your best efforts, your father will still be conceived. No matter how hard you try, you will not be able to murder your grandfather. Or perhaps you are successful but learn that another man was actually your grandfather. Or perhaps you're your own grandfather (see "Futurama")!
Theory #2: You'll be able to murder your grandfather and prevent your father's conception (not to mention your own). But in doing so you'll create a brand new universe...so when you travel forward in time your house will be owned by somebody else, your wife will have a different husband, etc. You won't exist. Meanwhile, the universe you came from will continue on. From their prospective when you attempted to time travel you simply disappeared and never returned.
Theory #1: "What happened, happened" -- despite your best efforts, your father will still be conceived. No matter how hard you try, you will not be able to murder your grandfather. Or perhaps you are successful but learn that another man was actually your grandfather. Or perhaps you're your own grandfather (see "Futurama")!
Theory #2: You'll be able to murder your grandfather and prevent your father's conception (not to mention your own). But in doing so you'll create a brand new universe...so when you travel forward in time your house will be owned by somebody else, your wife will have a different husband, etc. You won't exist. Meanwhile, the universe you came from will continue on. From their prospective when you attempted to time travel you simply disappeared and never returned.
03-22-10, 12:46 PM
#307
DVD Talk Godfather
Re: Lost -- "Recon" -- 3/16/10
Theory #1: "What happened, happened" -- despite your best efforts, your father will still be conceived. No matter how hard you try, you will not be able to murder your grandfather. Or perhaps you are successful but learn that another man was actually your grandfather. Or perhaps you're your own grandfather (see "Futurama")!
03-22-10, 01:02 PM
#308
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Lost -- "Recon" -- 3/16/10
I know people hated this incarnation, but the most recent version of the Twilight Zone series had an awesome episode (Cradle of Darkness) about this. Katherine Heigl is sent back in time to kill Hitler as a baby to prevent WWII. Needless to say, being the Twilight Zone, things don't exactly go according to plan.
03-22-10, 01:04 PM
#309
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Re: Lost -- "Recon" -- 3/16/10
Theory #1: "What happened, happened" -- despite your best efforts, your father will still be conceived. No matter how hard you try, you will not be able to murder your grandfather. Or perhaps you are successful but learn that another man was actually your grandfather. Or perhaps you're your own grandfather (see "Futurama")!
Theory #2: You'll be able to murder your grandfather and prevent your father's conception (not to mention your own). But in doing so you'll create a brand new universe...so when you travel forward in time your house will be owned by somebody else, your wife will have a different husband, etc. You won't exist. Meanwhile, the universe you came from will continue on. From their prospective when you attempted to time travel you simply disappeared and never returned.
Theory #2: You'll be able to murder your grandfather and prevent your father's conception (not to mention your own). But in doing so you'll create a brand new universe...so when you travel forward in time your house will be owned by somebody else, your wife will have a different husband, etc. You won't exist. Meanwhile, the universe you came from will continue on. From their prospective when you attempted to time travel you simply disappeared and never returned.
Quantum Theory Looks at Time Travel by Daniel M. Greenberger & Karl Svozil
We introduce a quantum mechanical model of time travel which includes two figurative beam splitters in order to induce feedback to earlier times. This leads to a unique solution to the paradox where one could kill one’s grandfather in that once the future has unfolded, it cannot change the past, and so the past becomes deterministic. On the other hand, looking forwards towards the future is completely probabilistic. This resolves the classical paradox in a philosophically satisfying manner.
According to our model, if you travel into the past quantum mechanically, you would only see those alternatives consistent with the world you left behind you. In other words, while you are aware of the past, you cannot change it. No matter how unlikely the events are that could have led to your present circumstances, once they have actually occurred, they cannot be changed. Your trip would set up resonances that are consistent with the future that has already unfolded.
This also has enormous consequences on the paradoxes of free will. It shows that it is perfectly logical to assume that one has many choices and that one is free to take any one of them. Until a choice is taken, the future is not determined. However, once a choice is taken, and it leads to a particular future, it was inevitable. It could not have been otherwise. The boundary conditions that the future events happen as they already have, guarantees that they must have been prepared for in the past. So, looking backwards, the world is deterministic. However, looking forwards, the future is probabilistic. This completely explains the classical paradox. In fact, it serves as a kind of indirect evidence that such feedback must actually take place in nature, in the sense that without it, a paradox exists, while with it, the paradox is resolved. (Of course, there is an equally likely explanation, namely that going backward in time is impossible. This also solves the paradox by avoiding it.)
The model also has consequences concerning the many-worlds interpretation of quantum theory. The world may appear to keep splitting so far as the future is concerned. However, once a measurement is made, only those histories consistent with that measurement are possible. In other words, with time travel, other alternative worlds do not exist, as once a measurement has been made confirming the world we live in, the other worlds would be impossible to reach from the original one.
This also has enormous consequences on the paradoxes of free will. It shows that it is perfectly logical to assume that one has many choices and that one is free to take any one of them. Until a choice is taken, the future is not determined. However, once a choice is taken, and it leads to a particular future, it was inevitable. It could not have been otherwise. The boundary conditions that the future events happen as they already have, guarantees that they must have been prepared for in the past. So, looking backwards, the world is deterministic. However, looking forwards, the future is probabilistic. This completely explains the classical paradox. In fact, it serves as a kind of indirect evidence that such feedback must actually take place in nature, in the sense that without it, a paradox exists, while with it, the paradox is resolved. (Of course, there is an equally likely explanation, namely that going backward in time is impossible. This also solves the paradox by avoiding it.)
The model also has consequences concerning the many-worlds interpretation of quantum theory. The world may appear to keep splitting so far as the future is concerned. However, once a measurement is made, only those histories consistent with that measurement are possible. In other words, with time travel, other alternative worlds do not exist, as once a measurement has been made confirming the world we live in, the other worlds would be impossible to reach from the original one.
03-22-10, 02:01 PM
#310
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Re: Lost -- "Recon" -- 3/16/10
The article Flave mentioned can be found here (in PDF form):
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/quant-ph/p.../0506027v2.pdf
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/quant-ph/p.../0506027v2.pdf
03-22-10, 02:40 PM
#313
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03-22-10, 02:41 PM
#314
Re: Lost -- "Recon" -- 3/16/10
Theory #2: You'll be able to murder your grandfather and prevent your father's conception (not to mention your own). But in doing so you'll create a brand new universe...so when you travel forward in time your house will be owned by somebody else, your wife will have a different husband, etc. You won't exist. Meanwhile, the universe you came from will continue on. From their prospective when you attempted to time travel you simply disappeared and never returned.
Last edited by andy434343; 03-22-10 at 02:43 PM.
03-22-10, 05:31 PM
#315
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Lost -- "Recon" -- 3/16/10
I really don't see what is so difficult to understand...
Two time lines? Multiple universes?
Sorry, but no...the bomb did NOT create two time lines. There is nothing we've seen within the confines of the TV show that justifies that theory. It's simple...the bomb DID go off. However, it didn't have the result Jack and the gang expected...it didn't destroy the island. It simply stopped the electormagnetic force from destroying the island. Thus the creation of the hatch, thus the need for radiation suits for several years following, thus the entire "incident" in the first place...and the whole chain of events that led up to the plane crash in 2004.
When there is a reset at the end of this season there will be no bomb to go off because in the reset our heroes get to live their lives without the influence of Jacob...he's DEAD...and Jack nor anybody else for that matter will take over for him. Jacob failed in his attempt to find a replacement. Because the bomb never goes off in this reset, the electormagnetic force destroys the island after they tap into it and causes the island to sink underwater. No island, no crash, lives lived normally and happily ever after for the most part.
And it's all one straight timeline.
Two time lines? Multiple universes?
Sorry, but no...the bomb did NOT create two time lines. There is nothing we've seen within the confines of the TV show that justifies that theory. It's simple...the bomb DID go off. However, it didn't have the result Jack and the gang expected...it didn't destroy the island. It simply stopped the electormagnetic force from destroying the island. Thus the creation of the hatch, thus the need for radiation suits for several years following, thus the entire "incident" in the first place...and the whole chain of events that led up to the plane crash in 2004.
When there is a reset at the end of this season there will be no bomb to go off because in the reset our heroes get to live their lives without the influence of Jacob...he's DEAD...and Jack nor anybody else for that matter will take over for him. Jacob failed in his attempt to find a replacement. Because the bomb never goes off in this reset, the electormagnetic force destroys the island after they tap into it and causes the island to sink underwater. No island, no crash, lives lived normally and happily ever after for the most part.
And it's all one straight timeline.
Whatever the change in the alt. timeline is, if there is one, it must occur much further back in time. There is no other way to explain differences such as Jack's son, who was born a long time before Jack took a ride on Flight 815. Also note, his son was born long before Jacob ever touched him or influenced him at the hospital. Hurley and Sayid are other characters that were touched long after 815 originally crashed, therefore Jacob had little to do with their pre-crash lives.
1.) The fact that we have a character (Jack's son) in one timeline that does not exist in another proves we are not dealing with one straight timeline.
2.) The statement made by Juliet, "It Worked" would not make a damned bit of sense if the reset hasn't happened yet. IMO she was probably flashing between the timelines as Desmond did when he turned the failsafe key.
03-22-10, 06:25 PM
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Re: Lost -- "Recon" -- 3/16/10
I believe Juliet didn't think it worked (like Sawyer) at first then she started drifting in and out of consciousness. By the time she died, she must've seen some after-life evidence to convince her it did, in fact, work. All Miles said she said was, "it worked."
03-22-10, 07:47 PM
#317
Re: Lost -- "Recon" -- 3/16/10
Originally Posted by cracksky
Marty was in high school at the time and Clara Clayton was a famous teacher often spoken about who fell into the ravine...until Doc saved her. The time travelers memories aren't affected only those around them. That's the ripple effect. They were being erased because their actions in the past caused a ripple effect that prevented them from being born or to die earlier than they did.
03-22-10, 08:19 PM
#318
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Re: Lost -- "Recon" -- 3/16/10
Remember this morning when you were deciding between cream or sugar in your coffee? Guess what, what you created a new universe when you made that decision. In another universe, the Andy that choose sugar this morning is banging a super model.
03-22-10, 10:17 PM
#319
Re: Lost -- "Recon" -- 3/16/10
I have seen theories like you speak of before on science shows, and can't help to question how someone could think that ANYTHING that we do will have any effect on the universe at all. We are WAY too small to have such a grand effect on creating an ENTIRE UNIVERSE based on every decision we make.
But I will humor your belief, and say that when you choose to write a reply to my post instead of not replying to it, you created a universe where you were banging a female.
03-22-10, 10:21 PM
#320
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Lost -- "Recon" -- 3/16/10
She specifically stated that it worked before she died. Remember Miles can only restate what a person is thinking at the time of their death. The goal of the bomb was to cause a reset, and Juliet believed it worked as she saw a vision in a different setting. (Eating lunch with someone, possibly James) Of course, this doesn't mean the bomb really caused a reset, just that Juliet thought it did based on what she saw.
03-22-10, 11:33 PM
#322
Re: Lost -- "Recon" -- 3/16/10
That's what I was hoping, but I don't know how they could pull it off....I was hoping the losties could "Cross Over" into the new world, maybe, and then by touching their counterpart they would become one. Or something.
I have thought that maybe when/if Flocke and the others escape off the island they discover the flash-sideways are what is now OFF the island post-A-bomb.
I have thought that maybe when/if Flocke and the others escape off the island they discover the flash-sideways are what is now OFF the island post-A-bomb.
03-23-10, 12:05 AM
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Re: Lost -- "Recon" -- 3/16/10
Wrong, because Doc specifically refutes this when he and Marty go back to 1955 and leave Jennifer in 1985. He says she will wake up and have no memory of that nightmare world. Well, why doesn't Doc's actions do the same for Marty in alternate 1985? Doc's actions should have altered everything even in the original timeline (isn't that what causes the paradoxes?), which would mean Marty should not have retained those memories.
03-23-10, 01:02 AM
#324
Re: Lost -- "Recon" -- 3/16/10
Yeah, I get that travelers retain their original memories. I just don't get WHY.
Marty changes 1955, remembers the original 1985 where he is from, but if the new, alternate 1985 results in him not being born he disappears....? If the alternate 1985 doesn't alter his memories, it should have no effect on his existence, as the multiverse is confirmed. It would make more sense if we saw the original universe, his actions, and then his new reactions as he thinks everything is normal even though we saw the changes he no longer remembers. Of course, then those changes would alter his original actions, which in and of itself could create a paradox.
Marty changes 1955, remembers the original 1985 where he is from, but if the new, alternate 1985 results in him not being born he disappears....? If the alternate 1985 doesn't alter his memories, it should have no effect on his existence, as the multiverse is confirmed. It would make more sense if we saw the original universe, his actions, and then his new reactions as he thinks everything is normal even though we saw the changes he no longer remembers. Of course, then those changes would alter his original actions, which in and of itself could create a paradox.
03-23-10, 01:07 AM
#325
Re: Lost -- "Recon" -- 3/16/10
Jennifer was knocked out by Doc in the car but she came to and saw herself in the future and passed out. She never even saw the alternate 1985. She slept through it. Seeing Needles reminded her that she was in the future. Marty was fully awake the entire time so, of course, he would remember the alternate 1985 even after it was changed back. He had to go back and change it!