View Poll Results: Who will be the sole survivor?
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Survivor: Samoa - 12/20/09 (Finale - 8/7c; Reunion - 10/9c)
12-24-09, 09:15 PM
#326
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Re: Survivor: Samoa - 12/20/09 (Finale - 8/7c; Reunion - 10/9c)
Just popping in to say I love dolphinboy and Howie2000.
Amazed at your stamina but I'd say at this point it's probably easier to just sit back and laugh about it. It's obvious you guys get it and even more obvious that some never will.
Merry Christmas Russell! Don't be too upset if Santa Claus thinks you were naughty and doesn't bring you everything you asked for.
Amazed at your stamina but I'd say at this point it's probably easier to just sit back and laugh about it. It's obvious you guys get it and even more obvious that some never will.
Merry Christmas Russell! Don't be too upset if Santa Claus thinks you were naughty and doesn't bring you everything you asked for.
12-24-09, 09:53 PM
#327
Re: Survivor: Samoa - 12/20/09 (Finale - 8/7c; Reunion - 10/9c)
12-24-09, 10:28 PM
#328
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Re: Survivor: Samoa - 12/20/09 (Finale - 8/7c; Reunion - 10/9c)
12-25-09, 12:28 AM
#329
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Re: Survivor: Samoa - 12/20/09 (Finale - 8/7c; Reunion - 10/9c)
I'd hand you a tissue, but I'm all out. Russell was in the neighborhood today.
12-25-09, 08:49 AM
#330
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Survivor: Samoa - 12/20/09 (Finale - 8/7c; Reunion - 10/9c)
Just popping in to say I love dolphinboy and Howie2000.
Amazed at your stamina but I'd say at this point it's probably easier to just sit back and laugh about it. It's obvious you guys get it and even more obvious that some never will.
Merry Christmas Russell! Don't be too upset if Santa Claus thinks you were naughty and doesn't bring you everything you asked for.
Amazed at your stamina but I'd say at this point it's probably easier to just sit back and laugh about it. It's obvious you guys get it and even more obvious that some never will.
Merry Christmas Russell! Don't be too upset if Santa Claus thinks you were naughty and doesn't bring you everything you asked for.
Two can play at that game. Merry Christmas to dino88, Bill Needle and the rest of the Russell Nuthugger Society.
12-25-09, 06:56 PM
#331
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Re: Survivor: Samoa - 12/20/09 (Finale - 8/7c; Reunion - 10/9c)
In 19 seasons the show has had all different types of winners and it is true there is no surefire method for winning having said that there are surefire methods for losing in a f2/f3 and Russell seemed to be following the same playbook as other beaten finalists like Sugar(Gabon)Katie(Pulau),Dreamz(Fiji) and Matthew(Amazon)
The game is a 2 pronged one while you can argue the first prong he played strategically correct to get to the end but in the 2nd prong he was an absolute failure.
6 things speficially
ABC are the more minor reasons
A. He picked the wrong people to be sitting next to (Ie like Colby in Australia).(Ie He Misread the jury)
B. He did not work on his social relationships with other players who would be the core of the jury as well as Natalie.(Matthew Amazon)
C. He made deals and broke promises for the sake of breaking them(Dreamz)
D/ E/F were really the Dealbreakers
D. He assumed while since he views the game xyz and a juror should vote on a set criteria every other player would use the same criteria (Matthew Amazon)
E. He sadistically and needlessly rubbed it in peoples faces for non strategical reasons when he had them beaten(Sugar)
F. Most importantly he was a creepy, (Matthew)bully(Katie) who people just didn't like(Sugar) on a personal level.
The people who drink the Kool Aid to assume the fan favorite is the best every season can blame it on a bitter jury but a bitter jury does not exist.
Russell could have done a lot of things different on days 1-38 to get a jury more agreeable to his chances on day 39 but he did not. He got caught up in his own ego and hype and judging by his post show behaivor doesn't seem likely he would learn from his mistakes. He could play Survivor 100 more times and he probably doesn't win unless he finds someone as equally as detestable but even then that person probably would have a better read on the jury and would be able to eek out a win.
The game is a 2 pronged one while you can argue the first prong he played strategically correct to get to the end but in the 2nd prong he was an absolute failure.
6 things speficially
ABC are the more minor reasons
A. He picked the wrong people to be sitting next to (Ie like Colby in Australia).(Ie He Misread the jury)
B. He did not work on his social relationships with other players who would be the core of the jury as well as Natalie.(Matthew Amazon)
C. He made deals and broke promises for the sake of breaking them(Dreamz)
D/ E/F were really the Dealbreakers
D. He assumed while since he views the game xyz and a juror should vote on a set criteria every other player would use the same criteria (Matthew Amazon)
E. He sadistically and needlessly rubbed it in peoples faces for non strategical reasons when he had them beaten(Sugar)
F. Most importantly he was a creepy, (Matthew)bully(Katie) who people just didn't like(Sugar) on a personal level.
The people who drink the Kool Aid to assume the fan favorite is the best every season can blame it on a bitter jury but a bitter jury does not exist.
Russell could have done a lot of things different on days 1-38 to get a jury more agreeable to his chances on day 39 but he did not. He got caught up in his own ego and hype and judging by his post show behaivor doesn't seem likely he would learn from his mistakes. He could play Survivor 100 more times and he probably doesn't win unless he finds someone as equally as detestable but even then that person probably would have a better read on the jury and would be able to eek out a win.
Handling the jury has ALWAYS been a part of the game. If you can't play to them, you really don't deserve to be called the best (and why he didn't win).
12-25-09, 07:22 PM
#332
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Re: Survivor: Samoa - 12/20/09 (Finale - 8/7c; Reunion - 10/9c)
I could just quietly disagree and shake my head but I didn't think you'd respect that.
12-26-09, 11:30 PM
#333
DVD Talk Limited Edition
Re: Survivor: Samoa - 12/20/09 (Finale - 8/7c; Reunion - 10/9c)
...and a happy new year!Respect, respect.
12-27-09, 10:37 AM
#334
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Re: Survivor: Samoa - 12/20/09 (Finale - 8/7c; Reunion - 10/9c)
Hang on here, are people actually trying to say that Russell was just a product of a good edit? If you can't admit that he was one of the best players this game has ever seen then you are fooling yourself. Forget the Immunity Idols. He pretty much ran the entire season. I'm trying to figure out how they could have shown him any less since the majority of decisions went thru him. I keep reading his social game wasn't good but he had his whole tribe wrapped around his finger. All that being said, he didn't win the game. It's a shame but not the first time that has happened. However, it is the first time fans on here are all not disgusted a coatailer won the game. Do you hate the man that much that you can't admit he was a great player?
12-27-09, 02:40 PM
#335
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Re: Survivor: Samoa - 12/20/09 (Finale - 8/7c; Reunion - 10/9c)
If there was no such thing as a jury vote and they just kept going on the island until one person was left then Russel would have won. If America got to vote on the winner then Russel would have won. Most people here are not arguing that Natalie was the better player by any actions she did to win; they are arguing that since she did win then it stands to reason that she is the best player. The end.
From my point of view, Natalie won because Russel pissed too many people off to win. Heck, she might have even gotten a few votes just to spite Russel because it'd be the bigger FU then if they picked Mick. I think the last jury-guy who gave that speech on why they should pick Natalie sorta gave the other jury members an excuse they needed to pick Natalie so they wouldn't feel bad about screwing Russel.
From my point of view, Natalie won because Russel pissed too many people off to win. Heck, she might have even gotten a few votes just to spite Russel because it'd be the bigger FU then if they picked Mick. I think the last jury-guy who gave that speech on why they should pick Natalie sorta gave the other jury members an excuse they needed to pick Natalie so they wouldn't feel bad about screwing Russel.
12-27-09, 03:03 PM
#336
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Re: Survivor: Samoa - 12/20/09 (Finale - 8/7c; Reunion - 10/9c)
Hang on here, are people actually trying to say that Russell was just a product of a good edit? If you can't admit that he was one of the best players this game has ever seen then you are fooling yourself. Forget the Immunity Idols. He pretty much ran the entire season. I'm trying to figure out how they could have shown him any less since the majority of decisions went thru him. I keep reading his social game wasn't good but he had his whole tribe wrapped around his finger. All that being said, he didn't win the game. It's a shame but not the first time that has happened. However, it is the first time fans on here are all not disgusted a coatailer won the game. Do you hate the man that much that you can't admit he was a great player?
In race car metaphors: Russell is like that driver how only knows how to keep the pedal to the metal and leads for 199 out of 200 laps, only to be beaten at the end by someone conserving gas, drafting on Russell's car, and sling-shoting past him at the finish line because they had more finesse and technique.
Last edited by Patman; 12-27-09 at 03:06 PM.
12-27-09, 03:30 PM
#337
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Re: Survivor: Samoa - 12/20/09 (Finale - 8/7c; Reunion - 10/9c)
Anyone who didn't care about jury votes could have played like Russell, who was basically a bull in a china shop. Do you not realize how much subtlety you need to win this game? Russell didn't have enough of it, and his "play" backfired on him.
In race car metaphors: Russell is like that driver how only knows how to keep the pedal to the metal and leads for 199 out of 200 laps, only to be beaten at the end by someone conserving gas, drafting on Russell's car, and sling-shoting past him at the finish line because they had more finesse and technique.
In race car metaphors: Russell is like that driver how only knows how to keep the pedal to the metal and leads for 199 out of 200 laps, only to be beaten at the end by someone conserving gas, drafting on Russell's car, and sling-shoting past him at the finish line because they had more finesse and technique.
Last edited by Red Dog; 12-27-09 at 03:35 PM.
12-27-09, 04:04 PM
#338
DVD Talk Gold Edition
Re: Survivor: Samoa - 12/20/09 (Finale - 8/7c; Reunion - 10/9c)
Anyone who didn't care about jury votes could have played like Russell, who was basically a bull in a china shop. Do you not realize how much subtlety you need to win this game? Russell didn't have enough of it, and his "play" backfired on him.
In race car metaphors: Russell is like that driver how only knows how to keep the pedal to the metal and leads for 199 out of 200 laps, only to be beaten at the end by someone conserving gas, drafting on Russell's car, and sling-shoting past him at the finish line because they had more finesse and technique.
In race car metaphors: Russell is like that driver how only knows how to keep the pedal to the metal and leads for 199 out of 200 laps, only to be beaten at the end by someone conserving gas, drafting on Russell's car, and sling-shoting past him at the finish line because they had more finesse and technique.
No one played like Russell, he did things in Survivor no one has ever done, and things no can do without looking like a copy cat. And that says a lot considering it was the 19th season.
Just because you play subtlety in the game does not mean the jury will vote for you. There is no logical reason the jury voted for Natalie over Mick. They both had the same strategy more or less, and were equally nice people. Yet I don't think Mick had a single vote.
You're also wrong that Russell didn't care about jury votes. He did, he just figured that they would vote on how their strategic game was, rather than on their opinion of the player as a person.
If Natalie really did play the jury so well, then what did Mick do so wrong?
And look just because I happen think Russell played the best ever game, doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement. The guy still fucked up. There is certainly some way to play like Russell and win the million dollars. But anyone going into the upcoming seasons with Natalie's or Mick's or even Brett's strategy has way way less of chance of winning the million. To me that's why Russell was the best. His strategy was as close to guarantee as getting the final as anyone has ever got.
12-27-09, 04:10 PM
#339
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Re: Survivor: Samoa - 12/20/09 (Finale - 8/7c; Reunion - 10/9c)
But there is no way to handle the jury. The jury is ultimately out of your control. The jury changes every season. Using the jury as some sort of yardstick doesn't tell you anything about the game. The only way handle the jury is by taking a huge chance by being nice to everyone and hoping you make it to the end. Would anyone call that a good strategy?
If Natalie really did play the jury so well, then what did Mick do so wrong?
I agree.
There was clearly an agreement to pool votes for Natalie (it's not like she did anything in the final TC that Mick didn't do) going into the final vote. This thing was decided before they ever set foot in that final TC. Russell could have kissed ass at the final TC, but it wouldn't have mattered given what we saw with the final vote breakdown.
12-27-09, 04:45 PM
#340
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Survivor: Samoa - 12/20/09 (Finale - 8/7c; Reunion - 10/9c)
I assume all of the booted jury members are allowed to socialize after they are kicked off. If so, I wish they would keep them separated so they would be voting purely on what they hear at TC and their own opinions.
12-27-09, 04:52 PM
#341
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Survivor: Samoa - 12/20/09 (Finale - 8/7c; Reunion - 10/9c)
Mick did not forge the social bonds that Natalie did, plus, she did pull off the play to get Galu to turn on Erik, which started Galu's downfall. Russell could not have gotten that done. Mick had nothing on his resume to point to in terms of gameplay. Sometimes, you don't have to dominate, just stay out of the line of fire when the conversation come to who needs to go home before each tribal council, and let others fall on the sword and get out of your way to the final tribal council. That takes intangible social "soft" skills.
There was just so much emphasis by Russell fans on the physical and the scavenger hunt skills he showed, but if the HIIs were on Exile island of sorts, he'd be gone a long time ago. He happened to gamble on the HIIs being near camp, like in China, and he got lucky with such effort to look for them. Also, Russell only won individual immunity once, not like he was such a force in those challenges. He played hard, spoke ill of his opponents, and people ate it up, that edit of Russell. Me, personally, I couldn't wait for him to get his comeuppance, and it was mightily sweet to see him trying bitterly to hold back those tears on the reunion show.
Just getting to the final tribal council doesn't mean you'll win, and depending on your journey, how you treat people can mean all the difference between winning and losing. Russell didn't comprehend that his particular paradigm for excelling at the game would be the same accepted paradigm by the people that made up the jury. He failed to assess these people's personalities and psychological make-up, and treat them accordingly. He FAILED in that part of the game.
There was just so much emphasis by Russell fans on the physical and the scavenger hunt skills he showed, but if the HIIs were on Exile island of sorts, he'd be gone a long time ago. He happened to gamble on the HIIs being near camp, like in China, and he got lucky with such effort to look for them. Also, Russell only won individual immunity once, not like he was such a force in those challenges. He played hard, spoke ill of his opponents, and people ate it up, that edit of Russell. Me, personally, I couldn't wait for him to get his comeuppance, and it was mightily sweet to see him trying bitterly to hold back those tears on the reunion show.
Just getting to the final tribal council doesn't mean you'll win, and depending on your journey, how you treat people can mean all the difference between winning and losing. Russell didn't comprehend that his particular paradigm for excelling at the game would be the same accepted paradigm by the people that made up the jury. He failed to assess these people's personalities and psychological make-up, and treat them accordingly. He FAILED in that part of the game.
12-27-09, 04:55 PM
#342
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Survivor: Samoa - 12/20/09 (Finale - 8/7c; Reunion - 10/9c)
But that's been used as a bargaining chip by some players who boast that if they are sent to the jury, they'll burn the person they feel is more responsible for their ouster. That's all about the psychological aspects of the game that makes it such a hard game to stab people in the back, and yet still be the lesser of 2 or 3 evils to garner their vote at final tribal council. This is why Survivor is so hard to win if you can't handle the non-physical aspects of the game.
12-27-09, 05:16 PM
#343
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Re: Survivor: Samoa - 12/20/09 (Finale - 8/7c; Reunion - 10/9c)
There was just so much emphasis by Russell fans on the physical and the scavenger hunt skills he showed, but if the HIIs were on Exile island of sorts, he'd be gone a long time ago. He happened to gamble on the HIIs being near camp, like in China, and he got lucky with such effort to look for them. Also, Russell only won individual immunity once, not like he was such a force in those challenges. He played hard, spoke ill of his opponents, and people ate it up, that edit of Russell. Me, personally, I couldn't wait for him to get his comeuppance, and it was mightily sweet to see him trying bitterly to hold back those tears on the reunion show.
But...there was no exile island. And that was known early in the game. You're going to hold that against him? He got lucky.
Then he made his own luck. He won the most important immunity challenge. Did Natalie win one? Natalie forged one social bond with what we saw - with Brett. I could see her getting his vote. The rest....sour grapes.
Last edited by Red Dog; 12-27-09 at 05:20 PM.
12-27-09, 05:51 PM
#344
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Survivor: Samoa - 12/20/09 (Finale - 8/7c; Reunion - 10/9c)
But...there was no exile island. And that was known early in the game. You're going to hold that against him? He got lucky. Then he made his own luck.
He won the most important immunity challenge. Did Natalie win one? Natalie forged one social bond with what we saw - with Brett. I could see her getting his vote. The rest....sour grapes.
Then he made his own luck. He won the most important immunity challenge. Did Natalie win one? Natalie forged one social bond with what we saw - with Brett. I could see her getting his vote. The rest....sour grapes.
12-27-09, 06:13 PM
#345
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Survivor: Samoa - 12/20/09 (Finale - 8/7c; Reunion - 10/9c)
But...there was no exile island. And that was known early in the game. You're going to hold that against him? He got lucky. Then he made his own luck.
He won the most important immunity challenge. Did Natalie win one? Natalie forged one social bond with what we saw - with Brett. I could see her getting his vote. The rest....sour grapes.
Then he made his own luck. He won the most important immunity challenge. Did Natalie win one? Natalie forged one social bond with what we saw - with Brett. I could see her getting his vote. The rest....sour grapes.
In Natalie's interview with Dalton Ross, she was a bit disturbed by the bible-thumper edit she got in that one episode where the producers tried to make it look like Natalie was jumping ship and riding on the Brett Bible train. Natalie said that she's isn't that type of person to proscelytize and convert people to her faith, but it's all in the editing. It's that type of stuff that makes a lot of the characters the producers build up on a weekly basis to be suspect, especially when the outcome seems to come out of nowhere, but you have to then give props to whoever can elicit the most votes from the jury. Period.
Russell won the most important immunity challenge...for Natalie. Russell had no choice to but to win if he thought he'd have a shot with a trio of Foa Foa at the final tribal council. Even that final immunity challenge victory wasn't enough to convince the jury that Russell deserved their vote. Why is that? Even if it's about sour grapes, it's because Russell played a poorer social game in the final analysis.
Winning individual immunity challenges just means you don't have a chance of becoming a jury member for that upcoming tribal council. That is it. It doesn't garner you any more votes from the jury members.
Last edited by Patman; 12-27-09 at 06:17 PM.
12-27-09, 06:17 PM
#346
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Re: Survivor: Samoa - 12/20/09 (Finale - 8/7c; Reunion - 10/9c)
It's not about being in a "corner." 
Believe me, I've watched every season - I understand the edit (and if anything, it showed her earning a vote - to her credit), but the fact is that but for Russell's gameplay (btwn finding hidden idols and winning the final challenge (beyond his manipulations)), Natalie wouldn't have won. There is no disputing that. If it was a close call on gameplay, then I could understand Natalie winning. It wasn't. This was a sour grapes vote, and I'm not sure how one could not acknowledge that, particularly given how there was obviously an anti-Russell accumulation of votes into one person.
Believe me, I've watched every season - I understand the edit (and if anything, it showed her earning a vote - to her credit), but the fact is that but for Russell's gameplay (btwn finding hidden idols and winning the final challenge (beyond his manipulations)), Natalie wouldn't have won. There is no disputing that. If it was a close call on gameplay, then I could understand Natalie winning. It wasn't. This was a sour grapes vote, and I'm not sure how one could not acknowledge that, particularly given how there was obviously an anti-Russell accumulation of votes into one person.
Last edited by Red Dog; 12-27-09 at 06:22 PM.
12-27-09, 06:23 PM
#347
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Re: Survivor: Samoa - 12/20/09 (Finale - 8/7c; Reunion - 10/9c)
It's not about being in a "corner." Believe me, I've watched every season - I understand the edit (and if anything, it showed her earning a vote - to her credit), but the fact is that but for Russell's gameplay (btwn finding hidden idols and winning the final challenge), Natalie wouldn't have won. There is no disputing that.
Believe me, I've watched every season - I understand the edit (and if anything, it showed her earning a vote - to her credit), but the fact is that but for Russell's gameplay (btwn finding hidden idols and winning the final challenge), Natalie wouldn't have won. There is no disputing that.Russell's social game was so bad that in the end, the jury rather give their vote to some physically weak girl than to give it to the guy who played so hard, stepping on toes along the way, boastful of his strategic moves and belittling the carnage he left behind (Galu). Russell played a great game...if he was planning on finishing in second place.
12-27-09, 06:29 PM
#348
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Re: Survivor: Samoa - 12/20/09 (Finale - 8/7c; Reunion - 10/9c)
Yes, Brett would have won the game. At least that I could see - he would have swept the last 3 challenges. That gives him a reasonable claim to votes. I wouldn't have had any issue had he beaten Russell in a final vote (and Russell wouldn't have even been there anyhow).
Natalie had no reasonable claim to votes. None.
Natalie had no reasonable claim to votes. None.
Last edited by Red Dog; 12-27-09 at 06:32 PM.
12-27-09, 06:36 PM
#349
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Survivor: Samoa - 12/20/09 (Finale - 8/7c; Reunion - 10/9c)
Brett won those challenges because he had to win in order to keep alive his chances of being in the final tribal council, otherwise, he'd be sent to the jury much earlier. Again, claiming immunity wins isn't always going to mean you are going to get the jury members' votes. You still have to be a human being to these jury members who will cast that final vote. Russell played the strategic a-hole route to the final tribal council, but it is a strategy lacking in humanity and humility, which is why his own actions poisoned his chances amongst the majority of the jury members.
12-27-09, 06:39 PM
#350
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Re: Survivor: Samoa - 12/20/09 (Finale - 8/7c; Reunion - 10/9c)
Let me ask you, Patman - would your posts be any different if Mick accumulated a 7-2 vote rather than Natalie?
If not, what did he not do that Natalie apparently did?
Being a "human being" - what does that mean? Is Russell not human? Can I not say that it's being a "human being" to not have sour grapes and reward the most deserving individual.
If not, what did he not do that Natalie apparently did?
Being a "human being" - what does that mean? Is Russell not human? Can I not say that it's being a "human being" to not have sour grapes and reward the most deserving individual.
Last edited by Red Dog; 12-27-09 at 06:43 PM.