The Final Sopranos - "Made in America" - 06/10/07 (WARNING SPOILERS)
06-11-07, 12:58 AM
#351
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Originally Posted by Decker
The Sopranos was perhaps the greatest tv drama ever, but don't try to tell me that it didn't go out on a sour note because it did. It had the same "screw you America" feel that Larry David gave the finale of Sinefeld, and just like that brilliant series, I think a little of The Sopranos legacy will suffer for it.
Chase is possibly the only man in America who could get away with such a thing, and maybe he shouldn’t. While it is one thing to flout the conventions of television, it’s another to flip dramatic tradition, not to mention your audience, the bird. No, he didn’t owe us any neat endings, nor some sort of final word on the nature of good and evil. But after eight years, he did owe us catharsis, some sort of emotional experience that would, if not sum up the entire eight years, leave us with something more meaningful than instant panic and lingering irritation. In the end, the art of writing is the art of making choices. Ending a series with the social weight of “The Sopranos” is not an enviable task, but end it must, and not with the sophomoric gesture of a blank screen.
Yes, people will be talking about the show tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow, but they probably won’t be talking about Tony Soprano or any of the work the very fine cast of actors and writers has done over the years. They’ll be talking about how frustrating the blank screen was. In fear of tainting the legacy of “The Sopranos” — if Tony really was just one more truly bad man, some viewers would feel betrayed; if he went from antihero to hero, others would feel the same — if he went from antihero to hero, others would feel the same -- Chase has offered us instead an epic novel with a do-it-yourself ending.
And, of course, the distinct possibility of "The Sopranos: The Movie."
06-11-07, 12:59 AM
#352
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Originally Posted by DVD Josh
Look man, this isn't LOST. It's is ridiculous for Chase to think that anyone but us crazy fans are going to put all these pieces together to figure this out.
He should have had brief flashbacks to those conversations during the episode. The type of viewers that watch the sopranos aren't likely to figure that all out, and it's not fair of him to expect it, it's arrogant.
He should have had brief flashbacks to those conversations during the episode. The type of viewers that watch the sopranos aren't likely to figure that all out, and it's not fair of him to expect it, it's arrogant.
06-11-07, 12:59 AM
#353
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Originally Posted by Decker
It looks like Mary McNamara, who writes for the LA Times agrees with me on this one:
Chase is possibly the only man in America who could get away with such a thing, and maybe he shouldn’t. While it is one thing to flout the conventions of television, it’s another to flip dramatic tradition, not to mention your audience, the bird. No, he didn’t owe us any neat endings, nor some sort of final word on the nature of good and evil. But after eight years, he did owe us catharsis, some sort of emotional experience that would, if not sum up the entire eight years, leave us with something more meaningful than instant panic and lingering irritation. In the end, the art of writing is the art of making choices. Ending a series with the social weight of “The Sopranos” is not an enviable task, but end it must, and not with the sophomoric gesture of a blank screen.
Yes, people will be talking about the show tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow, but they probably won’t be talking about Tony Soprano or any of the work the very fine cast of actors and writers has done over the years. They’ll be talking about how frustrating the blank screen was. In fear of tainting the legacy of “The Sopranos” — if Tony really was just one more truly bad man, some viewers would feel betrayed; if he went from antihero to hero, others would feel the same — if he went from antihero to hero, others would feel the same -- Chase has offered us instead an epic novel with a do-it-yourself ending.
And, of course, the distinct possibility of "The Sopranos: The Movie."
Chase is possibly the only man in America who could get away with such a thing, and maybe he shouldn’t. While it is one thing to flout the conventions of television, it’s another to flip dramatic tradition, not to mention your audience, the bird. No, he didn’t owe us any neat endings, nor some sort of final word on the nature of good and evil. But after eight years, he did owe us catharsis, some sort of emotional experience that would, if not sum up the entire eight years, leave us with something more meaningful than instant panic and lingering irritation. In the end, the art of writing is the art of making choices. Ending a series with the social weight of “The Sopranos” is not an enviable task, but end it must, and not with the sophomoric gesture of a blank screen.
Yes, people will be talking about the show tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow, but they probably won’t be talking about Tony Soprano or any of the work the very fine cast of actors and writers has done over the years. They’ll be talking about how frustrating the blank screen was. In fear of tainting the legacy of “The Sopranos” — if Tony really was just one more truly bad man, some viewers would feel betrayed; if he went from antihero to hero, others would feel the same — if he went from antihero to hero, others would feel the same -- Chase has offered us instead an epic novel with a do-it-yourself ending.
And, of course, the distinct possibility of "The Sopranos: The Movie."
06-11-07, 01:01 AM
#354
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Originally Posted by GreenVulture
From the HBO forums to the Something Awful forums to this forum:
I was half-watching the credits and didn't see any listing for "Nikki Leotardo" (nor am I buying his third paragraph about the people in the restaurant), but I could have easily missed it.
But if it's true, that might lend a bit of closure to the people who wanted a definitive ending.
I was half-watching the credits and didn't see any listing for "Nikki Leotardo" (nor am I buying his third paragraph about the people in the restaurant), but I could have easily missed it.
But if it's true, that might lend a bit of closure to the people who wanted a definitive ending.
06-11-07, 01:07 AM
#356
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Oh, and I believe the rumor floating around the net is that Chase shot FOUR endings. Which is not implausible; I believe the actor who played Vito confirmed that they shot several versions of Vito's final scene, including one where he lived.
Too bad we'll probably never get to hear/read/see them.
Too bad we'll probably never get to hear/read/see them.
06-11-07, 01:23 AM
#358
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Originally Posted by GreenVulture
Oh, and I believe the rumor floating around the net is that Chase shot FOUR endings. Which is not implausible; I believe the actor who played Vito confirmed that they shot several versions of Vito's final scene, including one where he lived.
Too bad we'll probably never get to hear/read/see them.
Too bad we'll probably never get to hear/read/see them.
06-11-07, 01:25 AM
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Originally Posted by abrg923
If so, they'll be on the DVD.
06-11-07, 01:26 AM
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Haha, I actually liked the ending. It was absolutely not what many expected. The tension at the end was brilliant because I kept waiting and expected something to happen. I even said to myself that it will be cheesy in that he was get shot or arrested but nope...life goes on. I think it will take time for people to appreciate it.
06-11-07, 01:34 AM
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I have seen the final episode of the Sopranos, and I am excited in some ways, but a little sad in others. The episode was actually a relief to watch when compared with last week's fast paced show. The final half of the show was not far fetched or frustrating for me at all. In fact, it was a Sopranos ending to the core for me.
I for one think that Tony and his family enjoyed dinner, with nothing else to come for that particular night. The demons have been defeated, and the bad guy lives another day. Who would have killed Tony? New York wanted Phil dead, and had no problem with Tony getting that done. Tony getting killed in the diner just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. There would have been cameras, several witnesses, and just would have been too difficult of a getaway (look at Meadow's parking crisis for fuck's sake). A sloppy hit like that to a mob boss doesn't happen. Bit characters may get hit like that, but a hit on Tony Soprano would have to be orchestrated better than that.
I'm sorry that so many people are disappointed with David Chase's ending. I'm just happy that Chase wrote and directed the first and final episodes of the series. This whole idea came from his head, and I think we ought to thank him for sharing it with us for 8 years, instead of pointing a finger and criticizing. But what are you going to do?
Any other series from now until the end that wants to take the crown from the Sopranos has a whole hell of alot of work cut out for it. Kudos to the entire cast and crew of this truly wonderful television series.
I for one think that Tony and his family enjoyed dinner, with nothing else to come for that particular night. The demons have been defeated, and the bad guy lives another day. Who would have killed Tony? New York wanted Phil dead, and had no problem with Tony getting that done. Tony getting killed in the diner just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. There would have been cameras, several witnesses, and just would have been too difficult of a getaway (look at Meadow's parking crisis for fuck's sake). A sloppy hit like that to a mob boss doesn't happen. Bit characters may get hit like that, but a hit on Tony Soprano would have to be orchestrated better than that.
I'm sorry that so many people are disappointed with David Chase's ending. I'm just happy that Chase wrote and directed the first and final episodes of the series. This whole idea came from his head, and I think we ought to thank him for sharing it with us for 8 years, instead of pointing a finger and criticizing. But what are you going to do?
Any other series from now until the end that wants to take the crown from the Sopranos has a whole hell of alot of work cut out for it. Kudos to the entire cast and crew of this truly wonderful television series.
06-11-07, 01:46 AM
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This will be debated forever with fans of the show, but I think the people in the Tony died camp are going to have a hard time explaining why we didn't hear a shot. I understand the whole conversation with Bobby about probably not hearing it (death) when it comes, but it would make no sense for us to be looking through Tony's eyes without so much as a gunshot before the black screen comes in. Even in his point of view, he would have heard the gunshot, even if not having enough time to find out what the noise really was.
06-11-07, 01:49 AM
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Originally Posted by IIG
This will be debated forever with fans of the show, but I think the people in the Tony died camp are going to have a hard time explaining why we didn't hear a shot. I understand the whole conversation with Bobby about probably not hearing it (death) when it comes, but it would make no sense for us to be looking through Tony's eyes without so much as a gunshot before the black screen comes in. Even in his point of view, he would have heard the gunshot, even if not having enough time to find out what the noise really was.
06-11-07, 01:49 AM
#366
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It didn't HAVE to be a gunshot, if you consider the terrorism angle.
How many restaurants has Tony, or a rival, had blown up in the series?
I'm amazed how few people have failed to notice, so far, how terrorism and homeland security issues have grown to dwarf both the mafia's AND FBI's pursuits as the series drew to a close.
How many restaurants has Tony, or a rival, had blown up in the series?
I'm amazed how few people have failed to notice, so far, how terrorism and homeland security issues have grown to dwarf both the mafia's AND FBI's pursuits as the series drew to a close.
Last edited by GeorgeP; 06-11-07 at 01:53 AM.
06-11-07, 01:56 AM
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Originally Posted by GeorgeP
It didn't HAVE to be a gunshot, if you consider the terrorism angle.
How many restaurants has Tony, or a rival, had blown up in the series?
How many restaurants has Tony, or a rival, had blown up in the series?
06-11-07, 01:59 AM
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Can they give the cat a spinoff? He's awesome
This episode had some really funny stuff in it, but we all wanted Blue Comet pt II. Reminds me how everyone said that Long Term Parking was better than All Due Respect.
This episode had some really funny stuff in it, but we all wanted Blue Comet pt II. Reminds me how everyone said that Long Term Parking was better than All Due Respect.
06-11-07, 02:02 AM
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Originally Posted by GeorgeP
It didn't HAVE to be a gunshot, if you consider the terrorism angle.
How many restaurants has Tony, or a rival, had blown up in the series?
I'm amazed how few people have failed to notice, so far, how terrorism and homeland security issues have grown to dwarf both the mafia's AND FBI's pursuits as the series drew to a close.
How many restaurants has Tony, or a rival, had blown up in the series?
I'm amazed how few people have failed to notice, so far, how terrorism and homeland security issues have grown to dwarf both the mafia's AND FBI's pursuits as the series drew to a close.
06-11-07, 02:08 AM
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If Tony wasn't killed by bullet or blast, why end the series so jarringly? A slow fade to black, with the entire family at the table, would have said "life goes on" much better than an abrupt midsong cut followed by blackness and silence.
I really do believe he's dead, possibly his family too. And not to dwell on the onion rings, but if you want to make easy symbols of them, what goes around comes around, and a violent death would bring things full circle for Tony.
I really do believe he's dead, possibly his family too. And not to dwell on the onion rings, but if you want to make easy symbols of them, what goes around comes around, and a violent death would bring things full circle for Tony.
06-11-07, 02:16 AM
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I really don't think anybody in the family is dead. Chase showed us in the episode that Carmela and Tony have utterly failed as parents, and Meadow and AJ have utterly failed at being decent children with values or sense of decency.
That's a far more depressing ending than Tony and the family going out like some modern day version of the diner scene from The Godfather.
That's a far more depressing ending than Tony and the family going out like some modern day version of the diner scene from The Godfather.
06-11-07, 02:16 AM
#373
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Originally Posted by johnnysd
The ending is what you want it to be. If you think Tony just got killed, then he did, for you. If you think they just set down to dinner and the screwy life of the Sopranos goes on it did. It's not high art or brilliant or anything, just one way to end a series that could never end in a way that would please even the majority.
This is The Sopranos we're talking about here, not "The Lady, or the Tiger?" after all.
That's all I'll say really. I enjoy these types of endings, I enjoyed this ending as a stand alone episode, but I can't help but feel that all of the Sopranos fans out there deserved to know for sure what happened to this man that they've invested so much time, so much emotion, into.
06-11-07, 02:31 AM
#374
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Originally Posted by Mordred
Phil's hit was awesome (maybe the best in the show's history?) and I haven't been more nervous watching a non-sporting event than I was in the final 5 minutes. It just would have been nice if they'd given us something. Hell even just a shot of the suspicious guy exiting the bathroom right as Meadow pushed open the door... that could have been the perfect ending.
I just wanted some teensy feeling of closure, and just seeing Meadow join the family, even for just a second, would have felt right.
But aside from that, I did really enjoy the series finale. I kinda knew not to expect to see what I was expecting to see. Chase has also surprised in that way. Phil's hit was definitely a WOW! moment for me.
There was just so much tension early in the ep, and then I was shocked because there was even more tension in that diner scene. That really was master class work in setting up suspense. But yeah, no real payoff.
But otherwise, I thought they did a pretty good job of letting you know the direction most of these people were going. It left me with the feeling that their lives were still progressing, although AJ is basically just back where he started. (And we're happy?!) I mean, did you really want to see a trial? Did you really want to see Tony taken away in cuffs?
Oh, and the cat ... I was thinking that it was maybe Christopher. That kinda explains why it would have been staring at Chris' picture. And the fact that it caught mice made me think of Adriana and her being a rat. I don't know.
Looking forward to having this sink in for a while though ...
06-11-07, 02:45 AM
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I just watched it and started reading the posts from the first couple pages.
Wow what a huge fucking disapointment. I wouldn't have even minded if they just cut away once meadow sits down and then faded out, but the cut to black 5 second pause, dv-r crapped out decision was so horrible.
I'm getting major star wars episode one vibes again. Damn, that's what I get for caring.
Wow what a huge fucking disapointment. I wouldn't have even minded if they just cut away once meadow sits down and then faded out, but the cut to black 5 second pause, dv-r crapped out decision was so horrible.
I'm getting major star wars episode one vibes again. Damn, that's what I get for caring.