Reminder tonight is the TWO part Series 2 finale over on Scifi.

Surprised they are saying as much as they in the open on the still promos.

Looks to be epic, so I'm very excited. Probably won't catch it until around 10 or 11 eastern.

FANTASTIC!

What I like about this show is they always try to end a season big

Agreed. Now THAT'S the way to end a season!

It struck me while watching these last 2 episodes that more happened in those 2 hours than in entire seasons of ST:TNG!

Question:

I watched since I wanted to see what happened to Rose. Aside from the cheesy cybermen, the episodes were excellent. Glad Rose didn't really 'die' but is likely to be the last time we see her which is too bad.

On the subject of Psychic Paper, it seems to have several uses. First, it can operate in the way you describe where the paper remains physically blank but the viewer perceives it as being whatever they expect it to be. Secondly, it appears to be able to physically display an image as a mental projection from the bearer, which apparently is what Rose did. In New Earth, The Face of Boe sends a message to the Doctor on his Psychic Paper. In the episode the message is shown on the paper, although that could just be a metaphorical effect for the audience it still shows a 2nd party displaying a message not originating from the viewer's mind.

I have a big problem with the Psychic Paper being able to "read the mind" of the Torchwood security system and "show" the badge reader what it wanted to see.

I understand why they did it. Rose showed the paper to the Torchwood staffer and he saw through the trick and saw it was blank, saying that, "Torchwood employees get a little psychic training" so he wouldn't be tricked with things like that.

Fine. But the writers evidently felt that the audience must see the paper in action before they see it fail, so they had Rose use it to gain access to the room through the badge system.

Why couldn't have Rose used it to get past some human lackey? Well, because "Torchwood employees get a little psychic training" so they all would have seen through it.

I wish the writers would have had enough respect for the audience to expect us to remember that the little flip book of blank paper is the Doctor's Psychic Paper and he tricks humans with it all the time instead of forcing themselves to invent a new use for it so we can see it work before we see it fail.

But on to the entire Two-Parter....I liked it, but I HATE the Cybermen. They are lame. They are too powerful and indestructable (unless you are a Dalek). And all the stomping around. Jeeez.

I'm sad to see Rose go, I like looking at her. I wonder how this went down during it's original run in the UK. Did the public know Rose was leaving the show or was it a total shock and a surprise?

Did Rose leave the show? It seems so.

Before the finale aired it was well publicized that Billie Piper was leaving the show. That's probably one reason why they started right out of the gate with Roses' monologue about her death, since they tried to keep whether or not she died a secret.

The writers seemed to have totally forgotten that gold is the Cybermen's weakness.

Gold is the weakness for Cybermen in THIS universe. Not the Cybus Industries universe.

Parallel but not the same.



Oh and then there's THIS note:

Excellent! I suppose it must be doing well over here then. Now, if only Sci Fi (or someone else) would broadcast the classic episodes. I've never seen any Colin Baker or Sylvester McCoy episodes. There's only a couple that are available on DVD.

Short answer...Billie Piper didnt want to continue on the show.

Whatever. These aren't even "Cybermen" per se, seeing as how they didn't even come from the planet Mondas.

I would assume since humans live in all the parallel universes people going back and forth is no problem...but the doctor is the last of his kind, and leaving just to hang out with Rose extinguishes the Time Lords forever

I've been a Doctor Who fan for 20+ years now and The Daleks vs The Cybermen has always been a dream come true... how awesome to finally see it happen.

By that rationale, the Daleks from Bad Wolf/Parting of the Ways weren't really Daleks as they weren't from Skaro.

However everyone, including the Doctor, called them Cybermen. Even the Cybermen refered to themselves as "Cybermen."

Mondas, Telos, Earth, Parallel Earth....Cybermen are made, not born. Doesn't matter where they originate.

I just watched these episodes and...damn, what a ride! Outside of "Fear Her", this show has delivered consistently satisfying entertainment. I haven't been so pleased with a show or had this much fun with one since Angel.

A big part of the joy I got from these was the chemistry between the Doctor's and Rose. I hope the new companion can live up to what Billie brought to the table.

I think Billie being completly on-board with the Dr. had run its course...a new bitch who wants out could be cool

Lets just hope they can be companions and not infer they are something else as well.

My memory on old Who is very fuzzy, so I'm not entirely sure what the "proper" role of a companion is supposed to be. However, if it is the exact opposite of "Rose" I'll be somewhat dissapointed. However, if it is too close, then I'll feel cheated in that the Dr. and Rose's relationship will seem a lot more shallow.

Besides, from what I hear the next companion Right now that does not sit well with me. Perhaps it's because she is not Rose. Or perhaps it is because I'm not always keen on reuse.

Yes, which is why the writers shouldn't have conveniently forgotten the Cybermen's only weakness. I suppose that would've been too much for Russell Davies to bother with.

Non-Skaro originated Daleks have been shown many times before.

The previous Cybermen all had the same "origin" no matter where they came from. They were all from the original Mondas Cybermen line, even if they were Telosian or whatever.

The Cybermen from this season have a seperate origin and are therefore different from the original Cybermen. Who are presumably still out there somewhere.

And even the non-Skarro Daleks from "Parting of the Ways" were created by the original Daleks, so they're still of the same line in that regard.

Yeah. And they're still Daleks as the Cybermen from an alternate earth are still Cybermen despite not being created on Mondas.

I also think Davies has been doing a great job thus far.



I know. I was bringing up the fact that Cybermen are Cybermen no matter where they were created because the origins were essentially the same. I was responding to what Shazam had written. He mentioned that:

Suppose this is the best place to put this...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/6214425.stm

I really hope this doesn't have any validity behind it. I like Tennant, however I suppose Eccelston is "my" Doctor since he was my real introduction to the show. At times I miss Eccleston, but as I said earlier I like Tennant and am happy we will have Doctor consistency in series 3, but Doctor Who is really gonna annoy me if there is another Doctor in series 4.

I mean could you imagine Kirk or Picard leaving part of the way through their respective series? It just doesn't fit.

To keep this relaevant to the thread topic - are there dvds out yet that show the origins of the Daleks & Cybermen? I think the Daleks were first introduced with the first Doctor, but I didn't think that was actually their origin story; no?

Anyway, looking forward to summer 2007 and the Runaway Bride ans the start of season 3. Oh yeah, and my season 2 set in a few weeks.

Well, let's remember that she didn't "show" the paper to the Torchwood staffer, she "gave" it to him for him to look at. She wasn't holding it when he looked at it, so if a psychic link between her and the paper required physical contact -- and I think it does -- the paper would appear blank if held and examined by someone else.

At least, I think that's what the rules are.