The one thing I can remember distinctly is your complaint regarding

By the way, if you still, have questions regarding the final season of Buffy, many of them are answered HERE: http://www.boilsandblindingtorment.c...nsevenfaq.html

That episode has one of the funniest commentary tracks EVER (Joss, Marti and Seth)- but don't listen to it until AFTER you've at least made it through season six; it's chock full of spoilers.

They all grow into their roles big time. You ain't seen nothing yet. The show becomes so great you will look back on the beginning and appreciate it 100X more than you did at first.

Season 4 was my least favorite... And I am a Huge fan of the show... This is my #1 favorite show of all time... I have all the collectors Items to prove it... lol... Anyways season 4 was the weirdest... Some cool eps, but I hated the big bad and the iniative and the fanale... It was so boring... It was so boring that I had forgotten that it was a fanale... Season 5 is my all time favorite Year! The best big bad of them all! And the END! OMG... SAD! lol
I love all other season... Season 6 I did not get to watch when it aired because after season 5 we moved to NC and they did not have UPN! It was the worst year ever... My favorite show was on but I was not allowed to watch... I did get to catch 3 eps when I went to LA for a week, but it was a tease! Luckily right before Season 7 started to air... Like a day before UPN was a channel that we just got! And I downloaded Season 6 before to watch... The entire series is in my opinion the best show of all time... Angel the spinoff was also great even though its final season was not my cup of tea! Still graet though!

The season 4 finale was fantastic IMO. So unique and interesting. Not to mention the things it foreshadowed. Brilliant Brilliant episode. So different than their typical Buffy/Angel finale too (which in season 4's case happened one episode before the finale). How anyone could say a Joss Whedon written and directed episode is boring boggles my mind. :) Everytime he writes and directs an episode "TV masterpiece" usually comes to mind.

Personally, I resented the fact that the WB had to go as far as mentioning a Joss - directed episode in the promos...to me it was more proof of Whedon's notable lack of involvement with ANGEL until season 5 - it was so rare that the network had to promote it!

Not that the series suffered in any way - I recall reading that he preferred not to write the big "event" stories on ANGEL - He wanted to just do more basic episodes, whereas with Buffy he did do most of the big shows.

All I'm saying is that Joss Whedon isn't nearly the first person who comes to mind for me when thinking about the best ANGEL had to offer.

The season 4 finale was intended to be a series finale IF it wasn't picked up...of course it was all a last-minute decision to bring the show back with 13 episodes. It was a testament to the greatness that is writer/producer Tim Minear - off the show for an entire season, only to return for that one great episode.

That is ABSOLUTELY TRUE!

I look back at those days in 1999 when it was just Boreanaz, Carpenter and Quinny...such humble beginnings!

I think it's supposed to feel awkward - remember that these three people don't even know each other that well...Cordy had some minor interactions with Angel before this series, but they were mostly the 'he's so hot, thanks for saving the day even though you weren't the hero, but you're so dreamy I'll give you the credit anyway' type of interactions.

They're all a bit new to L.A., they're new to this whole investigation gig...
It's more believeable that way.

I have a question for people who watched the series live as it aired. Its in regards to season 5 (or maybe 6. I forget)

Accoding to David Greenwalt Joss Whedon played a big role in some of the seasons, season 3 specifically. Those were his own words. Despite whose name is on the credits for writing they may not deserve all the credit. Joss is known to go over them and make big changes and add plenty of his own stuff. Even on Buffy some of the writers said they got credit for many of Joss' added funny lines and such.

Here's an intereview I found (this one mentions Joss' involvement in season 2):

"Joss Whedon was heavily involved with Angel during its first year. How much involvment will he have this year?

Greenwalt: There are two words one can say about Joss Whedon: Greenwalt's coattails. Just kidding. Joss is very heavily involved again this year. I thank God nightly on one knee that he is. He is, without a doubt, the single most talented person I've ever worked with in the business in 25 years. ... There's not a story that breaks that isn't something that Joss and I do together, or that he's come up with a great idea. Every script is read by Joss. Many of them are polished by him. ... Although he gets credit, ... there's lots and lots of writing in the show that comes directly from Joss that one isn't seeing. And he's continuing to work eight days a week on the show, to my great relief. ..."

Joss is known for getting less credit than he deserves. I recall reading that he actually wrote a large majority of Toy Story, but his credit is downlplayed quite a bit.

Angel Season 1 sucks, I think I totally just bitched about it when it began. I hated Doyle, thought Boreanez was boring & hated, hated, the female cop (can't remember her name). All I can say is you have to get past the first season. Boreanez really just gets better & better. The only thing I never liked about him was any time Angelas (sp?) shows up. The only thing I liked in the beginning was Cord, but they ended up completely ruining her. What made Angel sooooo much better for me is the cast, & I don't think any of them show up in the first season .

So why bitch about it again?

I loved season 1, and Doyle was my early favorite.

I recall an interview with David Fury who basically said Joss was not there nearly as often.

Whatever...I don't care. Joss being 'there' or not didn't impact the quality of the show, so it doesn't really matter.

Tim Minear...now he's my favorite writer.

That's true, but had he not been there it could have impacted the show negatively and I believe it would have big time. Just remember that whenever you're watching your favorite Angel writer's script and you are laughing or thinking a particular moment is great it could easily be something Whedon added that someone else is getting credit for. Happens all the time according to the writers themselves. :) Of course Joss doesn't really care about getting credit for any of that.

BTW, he doesn't physicaly have to be on the set to have a huge part in everything. He can and does work from home often and invites the team over to his house. :)

He clearly only cares about making a great show and that's great. One quote of his has stuck in my mind (it may not be exact word for word though): I'd rather make a show that 100 people NEED to see than a show that 1,000 people would like to see. I thought that was a great quote, because it summed up all of his series perfectly.

You make it sound that Joss is the one and only creative force behind everything you see and hear on his shows. Isn't that a little much?

Season 5?!??! Wow! I thought that season completely sucked big time! Every episode was completely depressing! That's one season I'll skip over when I'm going through my sets again.

While I definitely do not agree that it takes until season 5 to become great (that's just ridiculous) you're probably in the minority when it comes to your opinion of season 5. There was some depressing moments, but season 6 felt far more depressing as a whole. Season 5 had the best long story arc of them all IMO (and the best mystery). Not to mention that if featured two of the best episodes every done on the show: The Body and The Gift. Actually, I liked the 3rd to last, a ton too. Not to mention Fool For Love. Great season. Ranks right up there with 3 as a whole IMO. Three had the better character moments, but 5 had the better and more epic story.

Nah, I just don't like it when his role is downplayed for whatever reason, especially since you've shown a bias for Angel (not that there's anything wrong with that. :)). Several of your post have mentioned that Whedon had very little to do with Angel and it's well known that you prefer Angel over Buffy, so it seems that you wanted to take as much credit away from Whedon as possible. I just wanted to point out that the guy you respect so much would tell you otherwise and since he actually works on the show his input holds a lot more weight.

However, MANY of the best lines and moments from other writers' scripts have come from Joss. That doesn't mean I think he's the only creative force behind the show. It just means I think he's one of the, if not THE, most important creative force. I think they all deserve a HUGE amount of credit though, the entire staff, but all of them will tell you how great Joss is and that no one should ever downplay his credit just so someone else could be given more credit. They all deserve a ton of credit, but I don't believe Angel would've been as great as it was without Whedon and I'd bet everyone on the staff would agree with that.

Just my opinion. :)

BTW, let us not forget that he wrote arguably the best series finale ever, "Not Fade Away".

The OP had the same problems I did, so I was just telling him to not give up & get past the shitty first season b/c it gets so much better.

What, you mean the one where


The vampire drinks until the victim is near death; if they want the victim to turn, they let them drink from them (you get this is one great big metaphor, right?) Supposedly, even those who swear they won't drink will when they're that close to death. (Though plenty of people on the show have been turned voluntarily, including some major characters) Then they die and the demon takes over. How long they remain dead depends on what the plot of the episode requires. Usually they get buried and rise from the grave the next night, but sometimes they turn right away. The volume of blood drunk will cause the victim to die, but to turn them the vampire needs to take action themselves.

During the first season, the watcher's council (via Giles) liked to make a big stink about how, once a person has turned into a vampire, they may have the same memories, (presumably to make the slayer's job less morally ambiguous) that it's just a demon inhabiting the dead person's body. That turned out to be a bunch of hooey, though, as EVERY SINGLE VAMPIRE that has EVER been on EITHER show has shown that to be a bald-faced lie. Its kind of a "who are you gonna believe, me or your lying eyes?" kind of thing.

It gets a little confusing at times, because supposedly vampires don't have souls, just a demon animating them, yet demons have also been said to have (non-human) souls at times (and possession has even been referred to as being taken over by a demon soul). Seeing as how it's the humans that get to say who does and doesn't have a soul, and they aren't above just making stuff up and/or talking about stuff they don't actually know the first thing about, it usually turns into another way to justify how the slayer can just kill them without moral qualms. All we've been shown on the shows is that when a human dies, their soul leaves their body. That soul can be reinstated, however (and I'm not going to open THAT hornet's nest at this time) and when a vampire is dusted (killed) the soul apparently remains in the aether (possibly it withers and dies after a time?) - regardless, the one time a vampire was brought back, they didn't remember anything about what happened when they were dead; their soul just ceased to be an issue.

I want to take credit away from Whedon...now THAT is a bit much. Actually it's way too much, and way too ridiculous.

You don't like it when Joss doesn't get credit for everything he's done, and I don't like when Joss or anyone, for that matter, gets more credit than everyone else.

I wasn't basing anything I've said on bias, just observation and interviews.

About "Not Fade Away" - that's a prime example of what we're talking about: You neglected to mention that it was co-written by Jeffery Bell, so it sounded as though Joss did the whole thing himself, which isn't right, because it makes it seem like Bell's name was there for nothing, even though he also directed it. Joss was supposed to but was busy prepping "Serenity".

Sorry, meant to say "co-wrote". Is that better? :)

I believe everyone on the show deserves HUGE credit, but I also believe Whedon most likely deserves at least a little more credit than most and that he is one of the main driving creative forces behind Angel or any series that he's done. He may not have been on the set as much as he would have liked to be, but he still gave plenty of his input and polished MANY scripts. I simply think it wouldn't have been as great without him. The entire show has his style of dialogue for one. All of his series do really. It's so easy to tell when I'm watching a Whedon series. I think even if I didn't know what Firefly was I'd be able to tell it was Whedon series. All of his shows have his trademark style of dialogue and that's definitely important, because it's a big part of the series. I definitely do not think he deserves all the credit though. Just a little more than most or at least more than not much at all. :) Plus, had Whedon chose not to develop Angel's charater there would be no Angel the series. :)

Fair enough.

BTW, Sessa is in the minority with his opinion regarding the first season of Angel. It's definitely an unpopular opinion. Infact, if you had ever read his Buffy and Angel marathon threads it's almost hard to tell that he liked either series, because had tons of really negative opinions during both. Way more than most fans, that's for sure. It's actually odd that Angel somehow made his top 3 of all time. :)

The first season, while not on the level of the rest, is very good overall. I believe, like everyone else I know who has gotten hooked, you will actually appreciate the first season more after you've gotten a lot further.