wendersfan

With specific episodes excepted, I really don't like the high school-era Buffy at all. I think the cliched 'popular kids vs. the nerds' didn't work too well, or maybe it's that I'm too far out of high school to appreciate it.

For me, the show didn't start to get consistently good until S4. I know the 'big bad' for that season was silly, but to dislike the season because of Riley is missing the point - Riley was supposed to be this bland, boring, nice guy boyfriend for Buffy.

But I'll agree that SMG looked better when she wasn't skin and bones. She started to look seriously gaunt in S6.

Slayer2005

Sorry Nick, it was not meant as a personal "attack" at all. It was only meant to be the truth. Can you honestly deny anything that I said? I mean it's very obvious that you have an Angel agenda and you would like for someone else to agree with you by putting Buffy down low and Angel higher up on a pedestal so that Buffy can be in Angel's shadow (instead of the other way around), even if it's only by one person. I've read many of your Buffy/Angel related posts. I apologize if you felt it was a personal attacked, but that's not what I intended. I merely thought it was important for a Buffy newbie not to take your opinions to heart when you have clearly have an Angel agenda.

Again, no offense intended. It's only what I feel to be the truth. I dig Angel a lot too. We just don't see eye to eye on Buffy apparently. I feel your view seems to be so dramaticly different between the two series because you saw the spinoff first and probably already had a negative Buffy opinion like most people, so you thought "I love the spinoff, but in comparison I'll let everyone know that I disliked the silly show it originated from.". That's how I see your view and I believe I am dead on like a bullseye. I'm gifted like that.

Then you'll really love it next time when it's not seen out of context. By then you'll already know and care for the characters, so it'll be much better. My best friend actually started on season 6 first since that's all I had at the time, so it wasn't until he started from season 1 and back up to season 6 that he realized how great the episode was. After he saw it the second time after having seen the show from the beginning he told me he thought it was the best episode in the series.

Anubis2005X

I would ignore any advice to skip episodes, let alone entire seasons. It's Buffy and Angel, it's all good. Are some parts better than others? Well naturally, but that's true for all series. I enjoyed it all...

Nick Martin

I will clear things up entirely when it comes to Buffy:

It was a show I enjoyed for its intriguing, realistic (no matter who they were or what they looked like) characters, commentaries on life as a young adult, and great comedy.

However, you are correct in terms of my not liking the fact that the series ANGEL has received little recognition, and will always be considered the lowly spinoff of the great original series. That says nothing about the quality of the two shows, but the perceptions people have of them.

Buffy is TNG, while Angel is DS9 - the bastard child, of sorts.

The one and only aspect of Buffy that I don't like, is Buffy herself - her arrogance, selfishness and the writers need to make the audience care about her problems.

Everyone else on the show was great, and yes, I liked Riley.

Season 6 was one I'll not see again for some time. It had its moments, particularly my two favorites of that year, the gross-out "Doublemeat Palace", and the funny 'torture Buffy with annoyances' episode "Life Serial". I like to pretend that never happened. It was pathetic in every sense of the word.

I'm currently involved in an HTF Buffy DVD challenge, going through each season.
I don't have 4-7, but remember them vividly.

One of the biggest highlights for me was a scene in the final episode - seeing all three of Joss Whedon's series stars - Sarah Michelle Gellar, David Boreanaz and Nathan Fillion all together...I could not get over how great that was.

ANGEL was a show I watched without ever knowing anything about Buffy when it aired. As I caught up on its reruns, I enjoyed it - otherwise I would never have bought seasons 1-3. I don't have 4-7 because at the time, I couldn't afford them AND get ANGEL, plus they still rerun from time to time anyway. I couldn't get those new slim sets because I recently got the entire DS9 series which cleaned me out.

Many, many people find Buffy to be the greatest, and don't care for, have never seen, or (yes, it's apparently true) never even heard of ANGEL.

I find it to be an all-around better series, but I can't outright compare them. They are too different.

One more thing.

I hate musicals, but unlike some of you, watching "Once More With Feeling" didn't cause me to make an exception in its case.

I still hate them, and still cringe at the idea of seeing those characters in that setting.

Slayer2005

Well, that's at least something nice and positive to read.

I feel your pain about Angel's lack of recognition, but in the real world Buffy gets the same lack of respect and is usually already prejudged, because of the movie, the title, the premise, etc. Still, no need to take out frustation on Buffy. Blame it on the people. Angel gets pretty good recognition online. On EOnline's online poll to save one show Angel recieved 85% of over 400,000 votes in a poll that had about 8 other shows (some well known ones too). Not too bad for a show with little recognition. It also had probably the biggest (or one of the) campaigns to save the show.

She's not my favorite character on the show, but I don't dislike her character. I like her character. SMG did a great job and delivered some great dialogue. I always kept in mind that she didn't want or choose this life, but has to deal with it anyway. So, I cared for her character. She's a super hero, so a little arrogance should be expected, but she wasn't that bad, IMO. I just don't see her the way you do I guess.

Well, that explains a lot. JK.

I dug those two episodes too. Doublemeat Palace, not so much the first time, but it was amusing the next time. Life Serial was hilarious. My best friend actually saw season 6 first and he was laughing his ass off at Life Serial. He also cracked up a bit during DoubleMeat Palace simply because of the oddness of the episode. I think he enjoyed that one simply for its weird factor. "DP" is definitely a like it/dislike it episode though.

I thought season 6 was much better the second time around on DVD. When it was airing live it was the first time I felt Angel was blowing Buffy out of the water (mainly due to pacing, the constant breaks and the fact that Angel season 4 was mostly one continuous story). I do think that Willow comment probably needs spoiler tags.

I get the problem with the They did beat it in to your head to the point where it was more like spelling it out rather than a metaphor, but it still fits the season theme perfectly when you think about it. .

Agreed. That was awesome.

That seems like a rare individual. Most Buffy fan I know of also love Angel, but it's not surprising that there are some who have never heard of it or watched it. Although, it would be surprising if they didn't like it. That's just odd. I bet there are some Angel fans who have never watched Buffy, although probably less, but I know they're out there.

Fair enough.

There's no way he was going to please everyone with that musical episode though, but he did please a lot of people who probably didn't expect to be. Well, that was nice reading a more positive Buffy post from you, Nick.

Count Dooku

If there are even a dozen people who think Buffy the Vampire Slayer is a great TV show, who had never seen or heard of Angel, I would be more surprised than if my girlfriend invited me on Jerry Springer to reveal that she's really a man.

Nick Martin

Damn...I edited my post to reflect the unintentional spoiler.

Thanks for catching it!


When it comes to Buffy herself, season 1 - she was great. I loved her charming, happy, not-so-serious way of looking at things. She was burdened by her destiny, but found a way to have some fun with it.

Eventually, as the series progressed, I noticed the arrogance and selfishness progressing...SMG is someone I truly like - her portrayal of the character has always been fantastic - especially when she has fun with it.

I've got absolutely no problem with her or any of the actors on the show.

Nick Martin

My remarks about people never seeing or hearing about ANGEL stem from what others have said about their experiences discovering Buffy in other forums.

Things like, 'Is that the same Angel as on that Buffy show? I didn't know that'.
People introducing friends/relatives to the Buffyverse, etc.

The whole bitterness thing...ask 'Star Wars' fans what they think after spending time in endless arguments and it's easy to see why even the most hardcore fan could resent the movies - in part because of what other fans say...spite.

hippie68

You are in for one hell of a ride. We finished Buffy and Angel over a year ago. As soon as I can get some other shows finished up I think I will start watching them again.

Gil Jawetz

Uh, so this thread has turned into a real clusterfuck. Suffice it to say, if possible don't read any of it. Both shows are full of greatness. Angel stays great all the way to the very end while Buffy hits rough patches in the last couple seasons. But regardless you should watch it all and decide for yourself.

GreenMonkey

Ditto. I got weakened by all the recommendations I kept seeing for Buffy/Angel from folks that liked B5.

It ended up like this:

Favorite TV shows ever

1) Babylon 5
2) Angel
[excised for brevity's sake]...
8ish) Buffy

tasha99

Damn. Very tempting in a geekish sort of way. I'm planning on going to Europe next year, but this would be so much cheaper since I wouldn't need airfare (I work for Royal Caribbean, so the cruise itself would be almost free).

I used to mock Buffy too, but it's a great show. Angel is better though, imo.

wergo

Am I the only one who actually liked Buffy MORE in season seven than in the earlier seasons? Charaters in chronic depression are usually more interesting. I kinda wish Willow had acted a little more shell-shocked during s7.

Spiderbite

Exactly. I started my quest to watch Buffy/Angel in order having never seen an episode after viewing the enthusiam of those threads.

Once I started the shows I was going to read along as I went but some asshole deleted them.

Anyway, my wife and I are just about to start Buffy Season 4 with Angel Season 1. I am actually more exceited for the Angel show than Buffy as he has been one of our favorite characters so far.

I thought Season 1 was mediocre but Season 2 and 3 were fantastic. Quite a turnaround from Season 1. Just goes to show you that some shows need some starting time before they are cancelled.

The best part of the show is the humor. Once we got to know the characters we spend more time laughing than anything else.

wergo

If you're gonna watch the episodes back-to-back it gets complicated during the last couple of seasons.

seasons 4 and 5 of 'Buffy' you can alternate with seasons 1 and 2 of 'Angel'

season 6 of 'Buffy' and season 3 of 'Angel only has one crossover; you have to watch 'Carpe Noctem' befofre you watch 'Flooded'

season 7 of 'Buffy' and season 4 of 'Angel' is a headache. at some point early in the seasons you're gonna have to watch 2 Buffys back to back (I recommend 'Conversations With Dead People' and 'Sleeper') in order to match them up. You have to watch the Angel episode 'Orpheus' after the Buffy episode 'Lies My Parents Told Me' and before the Buffy episode 'Dirty Girls.' Also, you have to watch the Angel season finale 'Home' BEFORE you watch the penultimate Buffy episode 'End Of Days', which means watching nine Angel episodes during the same time you're watching the last five Buffys.

Nick Martin

There are lists, charts, and probably diagrams available on many a website and many a forum for people to use when doing the alternating thing.

I suppose making those lists is a great deal easier than actually viewing the episodes - alternating between 2 discs every 42 minutes...unless you have a disc changer, is probably a great annoyance.

otmetrud

It's only really necessary if you're particularly anal-retentive about such things.

wergo

There are some spoilers that are given away if you're watching one show out of sync with the other, but notheing anywhere NEAR as extreme as the spoilers given away on the disc boxes or the menus.

The BEST way to do it, in my experience, is just to watch all 144 Buffys in a row, and then watch all 110 Angels. But for those who are impatient to see what's happening in LA, that may not be ideal.



Beware, though, of watching all the Angels before watching the Buffys, as there ARE some VERY extreme spoilers given away on the show. ESPECIALLY during the last season of Angel, where what hapened on the Buffy finale is discussed at length.

wendersfan

In many cases that might be true, but there are a few instances where watching a specific BtVS episode prior to the corresponding Angel episode is almost required.

Nick Martin

Are you still planning on doing the Buffy / Angel alternating episodes thing?

Nick Martin

Just watch a season 4 Buffy then a season 1 Angel...that's how they broadcasted on the WB back in 1999, and you can't go wrong with that.

If you really wanted to capture that feel, watch them on Tuesday nights...from 8 - 10PM.

Nick Martin

Here's a copy of a suggested order:

This one is supposed to limit disc swapping, while maintaining continuity.

However, no one can go wrong with broadcast order - but it's just a hassle to do with DVDs, though.

Gizmo

Wait, why was the HUGE Buffy thread deleted? That thing was awesome!

Chew

I think the thread starter deleted it. Why, nobody knows.

MEJHarrison

Yes, Sessa deleted it for some unknown reason. That was too bad as it was an intersesting read.