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Old 01-14-06 | 12:56 PM
  #176  
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Originally Posted by Jackskeleton
As for the Fox deal, you do realize that Fox has plenty to gain from another network taking it. They still retain DVD distribution and are the production company of the show. So if someone else wants to take it into syndication numbers of 88 episodes, they'll be glad to let it get piss poor ratings on another network. Who said Fox was being a dick about it?
You have to seperate FOX the network from Fox Television Studios, and even from Fox Home Entertainment. All three are seperate entities, and should be treated as such. Fox TV Studios would definitely benefit from the show continuing, since they produce it. They would also get additional revenue from DVD sales, as would Fox Home Entertainment, which distributes this particular show on DVD. However, once the show leaves FOX, the network, FOX receives no more revenue from in. In fact, if the show is picked up by ABC, and the show is a success on ABC, Arrested Development would then be a competitor to whatever FOX show is on at the same time. Networks usually don't like to give their competitors ammunition.

FOX, the network, right now has to decide what it wants to do with AD. It can order a 4th season for itself, which really doesn't seem likely. It could cancell the show and let it go to another network. Or, they could act like extreme dicks and sit on the show, not officially cancelling it, but not ordering new episodes, effectively killing it. FOX did that third option with FUTURAMA, so it's not out of the question.
Old 01-14-06 | 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Jay G.
FOX did that third option with FUTURAMA, so it's not out of the question.
And they did it with Reunion since The WB wanted to produce the rest of the episodes for Season One.
Old 01-14-06 | 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael Corvin
No but TV guide is reporting that the Office is doing phenomenal on iTunes. Just more evidence that the "Nielsen" model is flawed & outdated.

The Office is a top 20 show amongst Tivo users & generates a ton of d/ls on iTunes where you actually have to pay for it, yet doesn't garner great Nielsen numbers. It just doesn't add up.
To be fair, the Tivo and iTunes audiences aren't that huge, especially in comparison to the population at large. The iTunes number was 100,000 total episodes downloaded, which means individual episodes received far less downloads. The Office already receives far more than 100,000 viewers per episode while it aired, and even if it received 100,000 more per episode, it wouldn't affect the ratings much. NBC has already speculated the high number of downloads is because the type of people who watch the show, which they know from the Nielsen numbers, are young, well off, and thus much more likely to own Ipods than viewers of other shows. The shows producers speculated that many people are watching it while at their work on their computers, which makes sense as well. Nothing indicates this type of audience is large enough to affect the Nielsen ratings though, at least not yet.

And Nielsen is adding more DVR viewers to its survey sample, up until it matches the same percentage as overall Americans who have DVRs.

The problem isn't with Nielsen, which does its job well, which is to say how many people who are watching it on TV. The problem is whether a Network should just take in consideration those types of viewers. Product placement means that people will see a product even if they skip past the commercials (Chili's references in The Office). Download revenue can offset costs, as can DVD sales and syndication, at least to the production company. Paramount discounted the last season of Enterprise to UPN in anticipation of DVD and syndication sales.

With Arrested Development, it's a strong seller on DVD, but the viewership numbers have never added up. FOX cares mainly about the numbers they can show to the advertisers. If reruns of Prison Break get more viewers, so be it. ABC will be a similar boat, although they might give it a break if it brings in certain viewers or critics awards. Showtime won't care about selling the show to advertisers, but if AD doesn't help their subscription level, it could get the axe.
Old 01-14-06 | 06:50 PM
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From: City of the lakers.. riots.. and drug dealing cops.. los(t) Angel(e)s. ca.
Originally Posted by Jay G.
You have to seperate FOX the network from Fox Television Studios, and even from Fox Home Entertainment. All three are seperate entities, and should be treated as such. Fox TV Studios would definitely benefit from the show continuing, since they produce it. They would also get additional revenue from DVD sales, as would Fox Home Entertainment, which distributes this particular show on DVD. However, once the show leaves FOX, the network, FOX receives no more revenue from in. In fact, if the show is picked up by ABC, and the show is a success on ABC, Arrested Development would then be a competitor to whatever FOX show is on at the same time. Networks usually don't like to give their competitors ammunition.

Fox has attempted to repackage this so many different ways and attempted to sell it to the viewers over the course of three seasons and it's not hitting a target big enough to warrent it being on their own network.

Much like how they offer Buffy, Angel and Tru Calling to other networks and only Buffy got the chance to go to two different ones, I see why the network would mind giving it to another network. Especially when the other two of the three companies benefit. Especially in the aspects they are in. Television gets all that much closer to the magic syndication number and Home Video gets more shows to package into a dvd that is selling in the top 50 no problem.

Buffy got that bump from WB to UPN and because UPN felt the ratings were lackluster they didn't want to take on Angel when WB canceled it (hey, could reunion be a sort of f you?) and Tru Calling was offered to both networks and they shot it down.

Considering how much of a ratings slumper AD is, All three entities have everything to gain from the move. Fox Network doesn't need to worry about low ratings bringing down advertisment rates, 20th Television has a couple more episodes to reach magic number and Home Video has a hot seller to keep selling.


FOX did that third option with FUTURAMA, so it's not out of the question.
Difference... 2 million dollar budget cartoon that no one else could afford and Fox had two seasons worth of episodes left to air.

Arrested Development is already wanted and they only have four episodes to burn which are already set to air in Feb.

Last edited by Jackskeleton; 01-14-06 at 07:10 PM.
Old 01-14-06 | 09:06 PM
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Tv Guide Channel just announced fox will air the AD 'season' finale in February.

Jeez, is it summer already?
Old 01-14-06 | 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by uhftv
Tv Guide Channel just announced fox will air the AD 'season' finale in February.

Jeez, is it summer already?
The word "season" is being used in this context to refers to a production run of a show. Otherwise the term "season finale" would almost never make sense, since a show usually is shown over the span of several of the orbital seasons (fall, winter, spring) before its own "season" ends.
Old 01-15-06 | 12:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Jackskeleton
Fox has attempted to repackage this so many different ways and attempted to sell it to the viewers over the course of three seasons and it's not hitting a target big enough to warrent it being on their own network.

Much like how they offer Buffy, Angel and Tru Calling to other networks and only Buffy got the chance to go to two different ones, I see why the network would mind giving it to another network.
You're still confusing three seperate entities as one unit. Buffy and Angel were never developed for FOX the network and then "offered" to another network. They were developed from the ground up for the WB.

Televison studios and Television networks must work as seperate, autonomous units, as mandated by Federal Law. As a result, lots of shows produced by Fox Television Studios are made for networks other than FOX, and FOX airs shows produced by studios other than Fox Television.

Especially when the other two of the three companies benefit. Especially in the aspects they are in. Television gets all that much closer to the magic syndication number and Home Video gets more shows to package into a dvd that is selling in the top 50 no problem.
Except there's no benefit for FOX, the network, and the ball is in their court. Basically, whenever a show is cancelled and allowed to go to another network, it's at the grace of the original network. Sometimes that network can be nice about it, and sometimes they can be dicks.

Buffy got that bump from WB to UPN and because UPN felt the ratings were lackluster they didn't want to take on Angel when WB canceled it (hey, could reunion be a sort of f you?)
No, because FOX network never saw one dime from Angel or Buffy, so why should it care whether they were cancelled or not?

Considering how much of a ratings slumper AD is, All three entities have everything to gain from the move. Fox Network doesn't need to worry about low ratings bringing down advertisment rates,
It won't have to worry about that anyway if it doesn't order anymore episodes to air. Whether or not it sells on DVD or in syndication is of little concern to it.

Difference... [Futurama was a] 2 million dollar budget cartoon that no one else could afford and Fox had two seasons worth of episodes left to air.
They had 20 episodes backlogged, even though only 18 episodes had been produced for season 4. And that was at mid-season. For a normal show that backlog would be enough for one season, but FOX milked it for another year and a half, airing an average of 14 episodes a season for the show's last 3 seasons. FOX did the slow kill for that show.

As for other networks, Futurama never had the chance to even try other networks, since it wasn't cancelled until a year and half after the production shut up shop.

Now, I'm not saying Arrested Development will face the same fate. FOX doesn't have the same backlog of episodes to air, so cancellation could be much more imminent. Also, while not directly benefitting from its continuation, FOX's parent company might like to see it continue to the benefit of two of its other divisions, unlike Reunion, which was produced by Warner Bros and would likely be released on video by WHV. It's by no means a slam dunk though that it will be released by FOX to go to another network.
Old 01-15-06 | 06:05 AM
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Except there's no benefit for FOX, the network, and the ball is in their court. Basically, whenever a show is cancelled and allowed to go to another network, it's at the grace of the original network. Sometimes that network can be nice about it, and sometimes they can be dicks.
And as many times as it has been said... what has fox done to Arrested Development to show that it's being a dick to it?


You're still confusing three seperate entities as one unit. Buffy and Angel were never developed for FOX the network and then "offered" to another network. They were developed from the ground up for the WB.

Televison studios and Television networks must work as seperate, autonomous units, as mandated by Federal Law. As a result, lots of shows produced by Fox Television Studios are made for networks other than FOX, and FOX airs shows produced by studios other than Fox Television.
Thanks for stating what I already know first hand. The point is, much like tru calling, The over all business has two thirds to benefit from this. Network may lose a show, but they already have shitty ratings with the show. So it's no loss to lose it or give it up to another network and run it as a first run syndication program to another network. Especially when Home Video and 20th Television gain to profit from it.

As for futurama, even when new episodes weren't ordered and they burned away the episodes that to them would last the two seasons because of how many times football pre-empted them, no other network was interested or even considered it because of the production cost per episode.

Fox Network has the rights of first refusal for the 20th television shows. In this case, they will either have the choice to renew or refuse it. At that point 20th television and imagine go for the first run rights to others. Especially with ABC and showtime expressing great interest and Fox already set for when they will burn off the episodes and wipe their hands clean of it, I don't see why you can't tell that this is a completely different case then.. say Reunion.

This is a different case completely.

while not directly benefitting from its continuation, FOX's parent company might like to see it continue to the benefit of two of its other divisions, unlike Reunion, which was produced by Warner Bros and would likely be released on video by WHV.
gee, thanks for stating what I already said. Much like how WB canceled Angel because they wanted to go with a potential pilot that failed, WB had no interest in or invested concern for angel since it wasn't there production. Much the same Fox doesn't give a shit about Reunion. It doesn't benefit the over all investiment of the studio in the other aspects. So they just don't care in that case. But with arrested development, they have plenty of reason to concern themselves. It could help home video's numbers in dvd sales down the line and it could get 20th television to have another 88 episode syndicated show. Considering once you hit that number you make free money with your show it's something that Fox Network has a invested interest by News Corp to take a bullet for and allow it to go somewhere else.
Old 01-15-06 | 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Jackskeleton
And as many times as it has been said... what has fox done to Arrested Development to show that it's being a dick to it?
Well, so far it hasn't officially cancelled the show, despite shortening the order for new shows this season and now burning through the rest. Productions can't sit on their haunches forever, people need paychecks. When Firefly was over, it was officially cancelled before the last episode aired. Maybe they have a legitimate reason for not officially cancelling AD yet, they may still even be considering another season or something. However, from an outside perspectinve, they seem to be acting like dicks, letting the show slowly twist in the wind with an uncertain fate.


Thanks for stating what I already know first hand. The point is, much like tru calling, The over all business has two thirds to benefit from this.
The point is, the network FOX doesn't care about those other divisions, they have no involvement in them. Whether or not AD continues has no impact to FOX if it isn't continuing on their network.

Network may lose a show, but they already have shitty ratings with the show. So it's no loss to lose it or give it up to another network and run it as a first run syndication program to another network.
If it's no loss, why do they occasionally not let other networks pick up the shows they cancel?

As for futurama, even when new episodes weren't ordered and they burned away the episodes that to them would last the two seasons because of how many times football pre-empted them,
It wasn't just pre-empted by football. They'd often air reruns of Futurama instead of new episodes, or even reruns of King of the Hill. FOX often started the show's seasons late, sometimes as late as December, and often ended the seasons early, as early as April. For season 4, only 3 episodes aired before the Superbowl, so pre-emption was really the least of the show's worries.


no other network was interested or even considered it because of the production cost per episode.
And what's the production cost on AD? I've heard it's above average, because of the sheer number of setups the episodes can have. And no network considered Futurama because the show wasn't officially cancelled until over a year after production had all closed up.

Fox Network has the rights of first refusal for the 20th television shows. In this case, they will either have the choice to renew or refuse it.
And they could be dicks about it and not make a decision for a prolonged period of time.

At that point 20th television and imagine go for the first run rights to others. Especially with ABC and showtime expressing great interest and Fox already set for when they will burn off the episodes and wipe their hands clean of it, I don't see why you can't tell that this is a completely different case then.. say Reunion.

This is a different case completely.
Why is it an entirely different case? In both instanced, FOX doesn't see any additional revenue. At least with Reunion, the WB was offering to buy the existing episodes from FOX, episodes it doesn't look like they're going to air. They would've seen money from that move.

gee, thanks for stating what I already said. Much like how WB canceled Angel because they wanted to go with a potential pilot that failed, WB had no interest in or invested concern for angel since it wasn't there production.
The WB doesn't have any productions, and neither does FOX, or ABC, NBC, CBS, or UPN for that matter.

Much the same Fox doesn't give a shit about Reunion. It doesn't benefit the over all investiment of the studio in the other aspects.
Fox studio didn't make Reunion. Are you confusing the network with the studio again?

....it could get 20th television to have another 88 episode syndicated show. Considering once you hit that number you make free money with your show..
I've seen the "magic number" for syndication be as low as 65 episodes, and as high as 100. The truth is that there is no solid "magic number" for a show. More episodes do make a show more appealing to syndication, since it'd repeat itself less often, but I've seen shows like "Sledge Hammer," "Ned and Stacey," and "Get a Life" in syndication, all of which lasted for only 2 seasons. Family Guy was sold into syndication with 49 episodes. Firefly's being re-aired on Sci-Fi with only 14 episodes.
Old 01-15-06 | 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Jay G.
I've seen the "magic number" for syndication be as low as 65 episodes, and as high as 100. The truth is that there is no solid "magic number" for a show. More episodes do make a show more appealing to syndication, since it'd repeat itself less often, but I've seen shows like "Sledge Hammer," "Ned and Stacey," and "Get a Life" in syndication, all of which lasted for only 2 seasons. Family Guy was sold into syndication with 49 episodes. Firefly's being re-aired on Sci-Fi with only 14 episodes.
Another recent show to be sold into syndication without any "real" number of episodes has been UPN's remake of The Twilight Zone (there were only 30-something episodes produced). Not only does it play on weekends in quite a few markets, but INHD also has the rights to rerun the show as well in HD.
Old 01-15-06 | 02:32 PM
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Well, so far it hasn't officially cancelled the show, despite shortening the order for new shows this season and now burning through the rest. Productions can't sit on their haunches forever, people need paychecks. When Firefly was over, it was officially cancelled before the last episode aired. Maybe they have a legitimate reason for not officially cancelling AD yet.
Well, who knows why it's not canceled yet. The talk is that if it were to cancel it the hard ball playing would take a different route and Fox could potentially get lower offers for the show. If the show is on the air and not canceled the value may be higher. You're right that productions can't sit on there ass. But I can tell you one thing, every set prop is still up in sound stage 5.

If it's no loss, why do they occasionally not let other networks pick up the shows they cancel?
What was the last show that other networks were interested in getting and the fox network or 20th television said no to?

The WB doesn't have any productions, and neither does FOX, or ABC, NBC, CBS, or UPN for that matter.
Oh my god, you keeping pressing this. I short handly written WB but what I'm refering to is Warner Brothers Television. Perhaps this is why you keep thinking I'm confussing network, television, home video, production companies and so forth.

Fox studio didn't make Reunion. Are you confusing the network with the studio again?
No shit, that's what I already pointed out and/or I don't see how you got to that idea that I'm thinking 20th Television produced it. The Fox Network or News Corp as a whole has nothing to benefit from Reunion. 20th Television isn't the production company that makes it, Home Video doesn't get a dime from any potential dvd and Network saw lackluster ratings for it.

More episodes getting sold into syndication gathers more value when selling it. While there has been cases in the past of highly wanted shows being sold, the model still normally stays the same but has dropped from the 100 episode mark to even 75. It depends on the demand of the show.
Old 01-15-06 | 05:15 PM
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Man, this AD arguement is giving me a headache. I hope the final 4 episodes thread doesn''t get hijacked with this overused arguement. I just want to hear about possible news of the Showtime and ABC developments.
Old 01-15-06 | 05:57 PM
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From: City of the lakers.. riots.. and drug dealing cops.. los(t) Angel(e)s. ca.
The argument about if it benefits fox or doesn't is besides the point and really has gone on longer than it should. We already know that it will be shopped around by the production company to others and others are more than interested. The "what ifs" shouldn't even be factored in because you might as well ask "what if Jason Bateman dies tonight."

We should all be glad that it's going to get a two hour final send off and just wait and see what the possible news on what the future holds for it.
Old 01-20-06 | 11:33 AM
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More news on the Showtime front (comments from the Showtime president and the Showtime CEO):

http://tv.zap2it.com/tveditorial/tve_main/1,1002,271|99635|1|,00.html

Showtime Wants to Get 'Arrested'

By Rick Porter

Friday, January 20, 2006

08:56 AM PT
Showtime is certainly not playing coy about its desire to pick up "Arrested Development" if FOX cancels the show. But the cable network doesn't seem to be blind in its ardor either.

Speaking to reporters Thursday (Jan. 19) at the Television Critics Association press tour, Showtime Entertainment president Robert Greenblatt acknowledged that his network and 20th Century Fox TV, which produces "Arrested," have been discussing the show. (ABC has reportedly expressed interest as well.)

"I always thought it was probably a better fit on a cable network than on a broadcast network," Greenblatt says. "And you know, in fact, I think it really does fit in with a lot of the things that we're doing."

Still, several things have to fall into place for the Emmy-winning series to make the move to premium cable. FOX, first of all, has to cancel the show -- which it probably will, given network head Peter Ligouri's statement earlier in the week that it's "highly unlikely" the show will return to FOX next season. And Greenblatt says striking the right deal between network and studio "is complicated and takes longer than you'd ever imagine."

More important, though, Greenblatt says Showtime would only want "Arrested Development" if its creator, Mitch Hurwitz, remains involved.

"I think he's the genius behind it, and he hasn't yet come to that decision to continue the show," Greenblatt says of Hurwitz. "He's been through a lot of sort of emotional roller coaster over the last couple years. So he finished the season for FOX, and he's in that period of, you know, thinking about whether he wants to continue the show."

"Arrested's" audience of about 4.2 million viewers per week is pretty small for a broadcast network. But for Showtime, which is in fewer than 20 million homes, even, say, a quarter of that number would be considered a success. The lure of the show could potentially lead to new subscriptions, meaning a bigger possible audience for Showtime's other series.

"[Picking up 'Arrested'] at a point in time where we're having a good deal of success both critically and commercially makes a really big statement for us," Showtime Chairman and CEO Matthew Blank says. There's a lot of things we could be doing right now. But for me, the prospects of having 'Arrested Development' and [recent Golden Globe honoree] 'Weeds' on this network, you know, at the same time are quite remarkable."
Old 01-20-06 | 11:41 AM
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Any chance we could get the network presidents of Fox, ABC, and Showtime into a cage match to decide this once and for all?
Old 01-20-06 | 01:02 PM
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Sure. Film it and add it to the Boy Fight collection.
Old 01-20-06 | 01:32 PM
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I've never seen someone so fiercely loyal to an employer than Jack is to Fox. What is your job, exactly? To stick up for them on internet messageboards?
Old 01-20-06 | 01:37 PM
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I think Jack has a point, and I can't complain about Fox keeping AD on the air as long as it did. Sure some of the night/time changes may not have helped, but at the end it comes down to the American TV viewing Public not watching this show.

birrman54
Old 01-20-06 | 01:43 PM
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He does have a point. It's just tiring to see a lengthy defence of its actions whenever someone makes a negative comment about Fox.
Old 01-20-06 | 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Nosebleed
He does have a point. It's just tiring to see a lengthy defence of its actions whenever someone makes a negative comment about Fox.
[Linda Richmond voice]FOX sucks. Talk amongst yourselves.[/Linda Richmond voice]
Old 01-20-06 | 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Nosebleed
I've never seen someone so fiercely loyal to an employer than Jack is to Fox. What is your job, exactly? To stick up for them on internet messageboards?
Really? He's been critical of the X-Men films and said this about Fox in the Malcolm in the Middle thread.

Originally Posted by Jackskeleton
The problem is that after Malcolm hit the syndication mark the network just hasn't really cared about it. Putting it on fridays and also where Futurama was during Football season doesn't help in the slightest bit.
Old 01-22-06 | 06:51 AM
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from zap2it.com (looks like if it is going to happen, its going to be Showtime):
'Arrested Development' a 'Long Shot' for ABC
By Rick Porter Saturday, January 21, 2006 11:29 AM PT
And now, the last "Arrested Development" story from the Television Critics Association midseason press tour.

Speaking to reporters Saturday (Jan. 21) at the Television Critics Association press tour, ABC Entertainment chief Steve McPherson acknowledged his love for the show but also said chances are slim it would land on his network next fall.

"I don't really foresee" a situation in which ABC picks up the Emmy-winning series, which is likely on its last legs at FOX. Earlier in the week, FOX head Peter Ligouri acknowledged it was "highly unlikely" that he'd pick it up for a fourth season, although the network has yet to cancel it outright.

"I just love that show. I believe I can market that show really well," McPherson says. That said, he considers it "a long shot" that "Arrested" will wind up on ABC in the fall.

That would apparently leave Showtime as the show's last, best hope for new life. Thursday, Showtime's Robert Greenblatt said the pay-cable network and "Arrested" producer 20th Century Fox TV have been discussing a deal for the show. He also said he would only want the series if creator Mitch Hurwitz remains in charge, and Hurwitz hasn't made that decision yet.
Old 01-22-06 | 04:12 PM
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From: City of the lakers.. riots.. and drug dealing cops.. los(t) Angel(e)s. ca.
Originally Posted by Nosebleed
He does have a point. It's just tiring to see a lengthy defence of its actions whenever someone makes a negative comment about Fox.

Is it just as tiring as seeing lengthy amounts of people calling me a shill? How about how tiring it is to see most post composed of "FUCK FOX!" or "FOX SUCKS!" without anything more. I try to toss a bit more thought into it.

When Fox does something stupid or that I disagree with I point it out. As quoted already, I have no love and don't justify the networks task on shows like Futurama, Firefly and other series that were canceled for no other reason than Fox didn't try or didn't care. I can see why some things are canceled and I speak as someone who has a good amount of knowledge of the behind the scenes actions and why they are taken in such a fashion.

I think that while it may sound like a shill, I do make a valid point on the majority of "defense" that I provide for the Network, Studio and any other aspect. Hell, take a look at my comments about Fox News. I really am Fair and Balanced when it comes to my comments about Fox.

It's just that in this case, I feel strongly that the network did just about everything they could to get an audience and came up short on all accounts. The public was just not making the show turn a profit and that really makes it suffer. Hey, it pains me to say it since I love the show. It's my bread and butter.

But hey, since you asked. I do lighting and other "below the line" work at the studio lot. I haven't seen a paycheck for "defending the company name on message boards" though.
Old 01-24-06 | 07:14 AM
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According to an LA Times article, Showtime will pick up the show only if Mitch Hurwitz stays on board:

Link to article
Old 01-24-06 | 05:29 PM
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DVD Talk Special Edition
 
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From: Bethleham, New Jersey
Originally Posted by Groucho
According to an LA Times article, Showtime will pick up the show only if Mitch Hurwitz stays on board:

Link to article
I think it that is already somewhere in this thread or maybe its in the final 4 episodes thread.


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