I do not know why this is still a issue that is bitterly argued to this day; sure Seven was a cynical ratings ploy, but despite this she proved to be a successful character and good addition to Voyager that did not harm the show in any significant way.

She was a good character but they made it the 7 of 9 show. No wonder Kate Mulgrew got pissed off. As someone had mentioned before, if they were going to make the character credible and not make it a ratings ploy, they should have put her in a starfleet uniform or some other duds just like everyone else.

There was a time-travel episode that featured Seven in a standard uniform (because the 29th century Starfleet needed her to infiltrate Voyager prior to her actual joining of the crew...a sort of "Future's End" follow-up) and I thought, wow...she doesn't stick out as the 'hot one' anymore, but as a credible member of the crew, just like when Troi finally started wearing one in later seasons of TNG. I don't watch TV shows to look at pretty people, I watch them to enjoy good characters and stories. Obviously the opposite rings true for the 'average' TV viewer, but that's how it is.

The Doctor may have undergone a great character arc, but I will always miss the good old days of him being a prick. He was cool when he didn't care.

I miss DS9....the only Trek for me.

I disagree. The forced relationship between her and Chakotay was lazy writing and just plain stupid. It's no wonder Beltran hated his job.

das

As for Robert Beltran being 'weak', I once read an interview with Bryan Fuller, former "Voyager" writer (who created "Dead Like Me" and co-created "Wonderfalls") and he mentioned that Beltran specifically, often mocked the scripts because like most of the cast, he didn't care about them and didn't believe in what his character's dialogue was about. I take that to mean it was just a paycheck for him and at least some of the others.

There are shows where actors believe in what they are doing, and care about the stories, dialogue, and making it as good as it can be...this wasn't the case.

The same apparently cannot be said about Jeri Ryan, who evidently loved working with the cast. I don't know if she was one of the actors who didn't care about the scripts, but she did care about being there, if what I have read/seen in interviews rings true.

Beltran openly mocked the scripts? Nobody has heard of Beltran since Voyager in any major way. Now I understand a big reason why. ;)

The Doctor should have been with Seven in the end not Chakotay. Where the hell did they come up with that plotline???
As for Beltran, he was right about the writing. How can someone fault him for speaking out much the same way the actress who played T'pol did later on.

Yes, thank you for pointing out that dreadful episode. For me, I gave Voyager three seasons on DVD, and then I stopped watching. I'd just come off watching all the DS9 sets and was just blown away by the best Trek series ever, and then Voyager was a complete 180. It made me want to hate Trek. So after three sets I'd had enough and bailed.

I came back to Trek for Enterprise because the premise intrigued me and I'm a big Scott Bakula fan. I watched the first season religiously until they aired like 8 reruns in a row and then never returned until the DVDs came out. I have two discs left to go in Season Two now and it is INFINITELY more watchable than Voyager.

Voyager had a strong episode here and there ("Eye of the Needle" was a five star first season effort), but too many times the stories just outright infuriated me with their stupidity. Too many Voyager eps were "Hey look at this pretty space thing... lets fly in for a closer look... OMG the pretty thing is going to tear Voyager apart!" and things going haywire in the holodeck.

Enterprise, with the exception of "A Night in Sickbay" has yet to infuriate me.

I am amazed though at the number of people who can't see past the freakin' THEME SONG.

Here's the interview link:

http://suicidegirls.com/words/Bryan+Fuller/

and here is the relevant text:

Beltran's a riot at conventions. I've always liked the guy. He never shies away from telling people that <i>Voyager</i> was stupid, and not in a bitter way, but in a specific analysis of all the dumb shit they did.

One of my favorite Beltran moments was at the 35th Anniversary mega-event. There was a HUGE line of people from all over the world waiting for his autograph, and after about 20 minutes, he answered his cell phone, stood up and said, "I'm sorry folks. I have to get back to Hollywood for an audition. Maybe I'll see you next year." Then he left. He sold it for about 30 seconds as the ire boiled within the crowd, and then he ran back in and said, "I'm just kidding. I'll sign as much as you want for as long as you want." Some people didn't think it was funny, but I was doubled over laughing at how angry people got in those 30 seconds.

das

I personally don't care about the fact that he didn't like the show- I just wanted to offer a possible reason as to why so many seem to think his role as Chakotay was 'weak'. It's not his fault if the material he had to work with wasn't inspiring.

Then how come everyone but him and Wang were able to step up and deliver?

No, it wasnt his fault and he wanted to make the show better. Why do people fault him for that??? None of the actors were given decent material to work with and were often blamed (Janeway) but they did the best they could with what they were given. Chakotay could have been a kick ass well written hero but instead he just stood on the side and said things to Janeway. He lost his edge after they watered down the whole Maquis thing and he never recovered.
Look at what they did with T'vok. He has to be the most annoying character and most annoying Vulcan ever to be portrayed in Star Trek. Not Russ' fault.
I believe they asked Nimoy his opinion of T'vok once he said it was a good Spock impression but that's about it. At least Spock had a sense of humor to him because he was half human.

One listen of the "In a Mirror Darkly" theme song, and you'll see why the ENT theme is so hated. When the show was first out, I didn't know the theme song was a cover, and I was trying to like, but then I heard it was a cover (and not a good one at that), it sealed it for me. The imagery was beautiful, and deserved something as good as Voyager's (which I agree was worth sitting thru every time).

People like to bash fanboys for criticizing shows and saying they could run them better, with the argument that they don't understand the whole process and wouldn't do any better in their place. I can't *fully* agree with that statement. Both VOY and ENT would have benefitted greatly from a fanboy sitting on set with a copy of the Okuda Encyclopedia, Trimble's Concordance and a cattle prod. Bringing the Reeve-Stevens in for the 4th season of ENT seemed to have the same effect. Watching any ep from a previous season, and then watching one of their 4th season eps is like watching Pauly Shore do Hamlet, then watching Olivier (sp?) do Hamlet. If they had been given a little more time, they could have made it something else entirely. As it stands, the only DVD of either I feel like buying is S4 of ENT, and of course not watching the first two, and the last ep.

Does it really matter if Garrett Wang was a bad actor? It's not as if his character ever had many lines or anything. He was like the most underused character in Trek history.

Well B and B have a history of creating characters that have potential and then letting them push buttons. Kim, Kess and almost everyone on Enterprise. I dont even remember their names.

Yes, it matters, and I daresay you overstate your case. Kim had more development than ENTERPRISE's Reed, Mayweather and Sato; hell, not to mention Classic TREK's Sulu, Chekov, and Uhura (iconic characters, to be sure, but how much do you know about them beyond a lot of valiant button-pushing?)...

I think you seriously underrate the contributions from Reeves, Merryweather, and Santos.

das

No way. Merriweather was on Enterprise. At least Wang got some decent story lines w/ Tom Paris.

http://personal4.iddeo.es/mmoreira/i...s/butthead.gif You said, "Wang".

I did love Voyager....and for Enterprise....read my sig. :)

Yeah...about that signature, sorry to be a prick but it's "themselves", not "themselfs"...and technically, since UPN is a singular noun (one network), it would be "It cancelled itself after cancelling ENTERPRISE". If you prefer using the plural, you could use phrasing like "The powers that be at UPN cancelled themselves after cancelling ENTERPRISE". Will you be my friend?

It's also incorrect usage of the word "now".

das

Ah yeah...missed that one (I'll blame it on a pre-caffeinated early morning ;) )!

I have two words for the UPN haters:

VERONICA MARS

A litter bitter are we?
It was time. No one was watching anymore.

I was.

Here's the funny thing about Chakotay. In the early seasons I was there, they gave him nothing. Here's this supposed great Maquis leader and it's like they went out of their way to emasculate him and put him second fiddle to Janeway. He's like the older brother watching the kids yet your parents still hire a babysitter.

We've talked about this before, but the writers just didn't understand how to write a strong female lead. So instead of making Janeway a great character, they made Chakotay a big pussy in hopes that this discrepancy would confuse us into thinking Janeway was interesting. It's the difference between someone like Joss who has all these grand ideas of writing a great female character in the lead and the folks at Trek who simply did it as a gimmick.

das

And that's exactly why Beltran complained. He was a babysitter with a tattoo on his face and got no respect. At least a hinted romance between he and Janeway would have given him something to do. Mulgrew nixed that idea.

Sorry...and thx.

I am a french canadian. English is my second language.

For my sig..... I wrote this up in March, when thay annouced the cancellation, and before I saw season 1 of Veronica Mars.

You must understand, I am a Trekkie, and always will be. I was 9 years old when I saw my first Star Trek episode (TNG: Encounter at Farpoint) Idid not even know about space exploration, and would come home from school and watch re-run's of TNG and TOS. I grew up with Star Trek.

I did let it go.... we must move on, but I will not change my sig.

Nor would I want you to (I agree with the sentiment), but will you correct its faulty grammar?

how about now ?

Fabulous! :thumbsup:, my brother!

Gee, all these grammar corrections and it seems to have killed the convo.

Even in the relationship he had in season one, they played him out to be Seska's bitch. Then you couldn't have him and B'lanna get together because it would be the same thing, Chakotay would be the bitch. Kes already had her problems with Paris and Neelix. Either way, Chakotay would end up as someone's bitch. Would have probably served the series better had he sided with the <strike>featherheads</strike> Kazons.

I ain't got no love for neither show.

Could someone please correct his grammar please!!!! :)

I think the overall problem comes for creating interesting characters, but not having the story to back them up. I can create all kinds of nifty Trek characters, but I can't make the stories work. (anyone wants some for some fanfic, let me know, no icky stuff)

Notice how the Reeves Stevens came swooping in with better stories, and all of sudden I enjoyed the characters more.

I don't know why the addition of Seven of Nine was seen as a real liability, since the character she replaced, Kes, was not that great anyway.

While I never really hated Kes, as a character she inspired nothing but extreme indifference and disinterest.

Jennifer Lien was a great actress, but I felt she was horribly underwritten and abused by the show's writers; her Kes character had a interesting premise (ie. a person that has a life span that is less than a decade) but I felt that premise was wasted and Kes just became the EMH's assistant.