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Old 07-05-05, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Groucho
People watch Maher's show? I tried, but it was a huge borefest, even more so than the recently cancelled Dennis Miller show.
Maher's show is one of the only shows I make a point to watch. It and Deadwood are the only reasons I have HBO. That said, the season premeire with Robin Williams was horrible.
Old 07-05-05, 02:05 PM
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CRM114

Keep your religion private.
Of, not from. Should you keep your sanctimonious anti-religion private?

das
Old 07-05-05, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by CRM114
Bill Maher calls out organized religion every week. He says people who believe in organized religion have a "mental disorder." No one ever seems to care and I'm sure his show is viewed by many many more people. He kills religion every chance he gets. Religious folks need to get over the fact that there are many of us that think they are full of shit. And all the sanctimonious crap doesn't help their cause. Keep your religion private.
Keep your politics private. And quit preaching about why we should have more liberal views. You need to get over the fact that many of us think you are full of shit, and the "touchy feely" crap doesn't help your cause.


Okay, you know I'm just giving you crap, but hopefully you get the point. I don't tend to get into the public outcry that religious groups do, but I also don't look at them any differently that Jessie Jackson's group, the Democrats, the Republicans, etc. You seem to, and I don't think there is a logical reason to expect that other groups can lobby against something, but religious groups should just shut up and keep it private.


Crap, das beat me to it, and did it much shorter.
Old 07-06-05, 11:21 AM
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I found the Signs From Heaven episode on my Charter Video on Demand system this morning! All of you who have VOD, check your systems.

My guess is that the cable and satellite providers have a standing order to add the latest Showtime, HBO etc. programs to VOD the day after they're aired. Perhaps the word did not get to them that the episode was being pulled so they added it yesterday. It also may mean that when this is figured out they will pull the episode. Upon finding it, I recorded it immediately. I didn't want to come home tonight to find it gone.

I haven't watched it yet and I will post my impressions when I see it.

Charter (even if it's a mistake)!
Old 07-06-05, 11:43 AM
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Thanks for the heads-up. It's on my cable system's VOD (Time-Warner).
Old 07-07-05, 07:45 AM
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Caught it on VOD. Certainly an easy group of idiots to bash.

Spoiler:
Yep, get a white coat, and you too can be a scientist.

I think I had heard about how that girl in the hospital is being exploited for profit. Heck, with how much the government has stuck their nose into the Schiavo situation, there is something that they probably should investigate.

I think the following quote sums the episode up nicely:
"It's a fucking grilled cheese sandwich for chrissake!!!!"
Old 07-07-05, 11:01 AM
  #32  
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Spoiler:
I liked what they did with the God/Jesus/Mary on a door/grilled cheese sandwich/clouds etc and P'S&T's head cheese experiment. Those people are simply self-deceivers who have no knowledge of how their brains look for patterns and how, once in awhile, random patterns are going to look like something they want to see. Wishful thinking is a strong urge.

Little Audrey Santo's mother is indeed slime. I have no doubt her icons are rigged and she's running a scam based around exploiting her comatose daughter. As Red Dog mentioned, this reminded me of the Terri Schiavo case. I could see the Schindlers having done something like this (maybe not as extreme) with Terri had they been allowed to take her "home" and "care" for her.

I was somewhat disappointed with the way they handled the Shroud of Turin. They focused on one obvious nut which didn't prove or disprove much. There are more serious people who have arguments for authenticity and, although every one of them has been thoroughly shot down (many by their guest Joe Nickell), it is a fascinating subject and deserves an entire episode of its own.

All in all a pretty good episode, far above the season's par.
Old 07-07-05, 02:03 PM
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Spoiler:
I am not a believer in the Shroud of Tourin by any means. By that I don't think it was what is claimed. But it is amazing how there are many questions that can't be answered about it. I know they have gotten DNA out of it. It would be interesting to see if there are any similarities with it and the bones from the James Ossuary. I also tend to think that is fake, but it is obviously a real ossuary. It seems like the Vatican (or some church that has the Shroud) will let it be examined again in 2008. Hopefully they allow for a larger piece of it to be carbon dated. IIRC, the orginal carbon dating seemed to coincide with the fire that the Shroud was caught in. That certainly leaves room for the dating being on the fire's age and not the Shroud, itself. Anyway, I would like to see further investigation into both, not because I think it will turn out to be what is claimed, but because they are interesting icons. The idea that the Shroud is some soldier from whatever area (I forget), seems far more likely to me.

To put a biblical view on the people that use these things for profit, I look at it as the same stuff as the gal who used "vantriliquism" to make a donkey appear to speak. Same with the goat born with "Allah" written on it."
Old 07-07-05, 03:27 PM
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I found an article quoted, ironically, on a pro-intelligent design forum. Unfortunately, the link from the four year old post no longer exists so I don't know where this was from originally.

http://www.arn.org/cgi-bin/ubb/ultim.../t/001122.html

An Autopsy on a Resurrected Man?

There have been several forensics studies performed on the Shroud of Turin. Long-time experts in the field claim to have found not only blood (type AB at that), but also numerous substances associated with beatings and violent death, and even fragmentary DNA. However, the chemical analysis of the shroud overlooks two major points:

1) Many of the same people who claim the bioplastic growth on the Shroud affected the radiocarbon dating (by 1300 years!) fail to mention any affect it and other contaminants may have had on the forensics analysis, and

2) Even if the Shroud had been used to bury someone 2000 years ago, there would be no trace left of most of the chemicals they claim to have found.

The Chemical Analysis

Substances that forensics experts state are exuded by the body in case of extreme trauma such as the scourging Jesus was said to have undergone were found on the shroud. These included bilirubin, a bile pigment. A number of chemicals associated with blood, such as types of proteins and hemochromogen, were also found. One researcher even found 3 fragments of human DNA.

But are the results of any validity? The DNA is certainly of very little use. The Shroud has not always been locked away. Many people in its 600 or so year history have come in contact with it, and people are always shedding their skin, hair, and other bits and pieces. It's not unlikely, in fact, that injured and sick faithful would have gone to the Shroud in hopes that touching it would cure them. It is almost a given that bits of DNA would have been left behind. And, of course, don't forget the researchers themselves, who may have left a bit of themselves with history. Could the other chemicals that were found have come from contaminants on the shroud? Very unlikely.

How can we say that? Very simply, by drawing on my own research as an engineer. Having worked with microbes and knowing how they work, I've discovered something about proteins. They are relatively fragile things. They have a specific purpose and a specific shape, and if something damages the shape or chemistry, they aren't proteins anymore...at least not the same protein they were before. This can be important when working with microbes, because if they get too hot, the proteins that make them tick will unravel, and that's all she wrote. But don't take my word alone for it, as my experience has been confirmed by medical examiners.1

One of the reasonings some people use for why the shroud isn't a painting is the effect the fire that almost torched it in 1532 would have had on most paints. The Shroud, though, came through relatively unscathed. It did get scorched a bit, but that was it. However, while the shroud may have survived in the low oxygen environment of the reliquary, the heat was intense enough to melt some of the silver that the reliquary was made of.2

The melting point of silver is 961oC (1762oF). Proteins tend not to like temperatures more than the boiling point of water, which is 100oC. The melting poing of silver is in fact near to the temperature used for cremation of bodies3. At over 900oC, it would be amazing that anything at all survived. Even if the temperature in the reliquary wasn't quite as hot as the melted silver, even half of that would be more than hot enough to denature every protein on the shroud. Therefore, any proteins found on the shroud that could have been associated with blood or beatings had to come from another source...they simply could not have survived the fire of 1532. It has been claimed by some that the folded cloth acted as insulation. However, even these people acknowledge that the temperatures are only "significantly below 200oC. This still exposes the entire shroud to temperatures greater than boiling.

The Blood Evidence

There was something of a stir created when Drs Adler and Heller declared that they had not only detected blood on the Shroud, but had typed it AB. This seemingly put to rest the theory that the overly red blood on the shroud was actually paint. But how reliable were their results? Detecting blood is not quite the simple process some would make it out to be. Blood in general can be detected by looking for iron. However, as detractors of Dr. McCrone's research have stated, there are traces of iron all over the shroud. To type blood, an antigen-antibody reaction test is needed. These tests are basically useless on denatured proteins. 4

The Physical Aspects

Some of the physical analysis has been very detailed in how the person on the shroud obviously died of crucifixion after having been scourged. I am still searching for a forensics expert to verify or debate the argument, and have heard reference to another forensics study that stated results were "inconclusive". There is, however, one physical trait of the "bloodstains" on the shroud that can be commented on. When looking at the tracks of "blood", one notices how clear they are. But anyone who has had a cut and placed a piece of cloth on it knows that fresh blood will soak through the cloth and create a large, amorphous blot. If, on the other hand, the cloth is placed on congealing blood, there is no stain whatsoever, with the possible exception of a few small particles that stick. Certainly, nothing as clear and well defined as the purported stains on the Shroud.

Even should the physical examination prove to show a crucifixion victim more accurately than expected from a medieval artist, that in and of itself still does not warrent elimination of the shroud as a forgery. We in this time of scientific advancement often have a very egocentric attitude towards the "primative and superstitious" people of the Middle Ages. But just because they didn't know science and the scientific method, we shouldn't disregard their common sense and powers of observation. Ancient people have shown time and again a remarkable ability to do things we don't think they should have managed...the Pyramids, Stonehenge, etc. Could not an intelligent artist simply have observed dead bodies, noticed what occurred, and extrapolated that to what would happen to a man dead on a cross? Or, even more likely, perhaps crucifixion wasn't completely gone in the Middle Ages..perhaps the artist actually witnessed a man dead from it and copied it (or even used the corpse!). Stranger things have happened. Considering the overwhelming preponderance of evidence against the shroud genuinely being the burial cloth of Jesus, this seems to be far more likely should the physical forensics be accurate.

1 Dr. Jack Frost, Medical Examiner, City of Morgantown, WV
2 Kilmon, Jack The Shroud of Turin: Genuine artifact or manufactured relic? The Glyph Vol. 1, Nos. 10 - 12
3 Dr. Jack Frost, Medical Examiner, City of Morgantown, WV
4 Ronald Singer, Laboratory Director, Tarent County Medical Examiners Office
Also, the dating does not coincide with the fire. The carbon dating placed the shroud at 1260-1390. The fire was in 1532.
Old 07-07-05, 04:25 PM
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Spoiler:
Not to get too far off topic, but...

The argument that the fire could have altered the carbon dating is weak. However, the sample taken is now believed to be from a medieval repair and is inconsistent with the body of the shroud.

Turin Shroud Older than Thought

Independant research recently completed at Georgia Tech agreed with the above article's premise.

What does this prove? Only that the full shroud is much older than we were led to believe by dating in 1988, and cannot be judged as fake (whatever that means) based on that.
Old 07-07-05, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Groucho
People watch Maher's show?
Old 07-07-05, 04:57 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Bill Needle
Spoiler:
Not to get too far off topic, but...

The argument that the fire could have altered the carbon dating is weak. However, the sample taken is now believed to be from a medieval repair and is inconsistent with the body of the shroud.

Turin Shroud Older than Thought

Independant research recently completed at Georgia Tech agreed with the above article's premise.

What does this prove? Only that the full shroud is much older than we were led to believe by dating in 1988, and cannot be judged as fake (whatever that means) based on that.
We discussed this back in January and February. I think that article has been thoroughly refuted. See:

http://www.dvdtalk.com/forum/showthr...in#post5795647

http://www.dvdtalk.com/forum/showthr...ud#post5823636

(I don't think we need spoilers for a discussion about the Shroud of Turin, just about the P&T episode because most haven't been able to see it.)

Edit: I checked out the "Georgia Tech" info and found that it has nothing to do with Georgia Tech. The "independent research" was done by John L. Brown who hasn't worked for Georgia Tech since 1984. It seems quite obvious that Brown is as intent on proving the shroud genuine as is the now late Ray Rogers, the author of the original article. Rogers "enlisted" Brown to do this "independent study." Sounds real independent.

Also, Brown's work wasn't "recently completed." It was done back in January, right on the heels of Rogers' article.

http://www.shroud.com/latebrak.htm

I am truly honored to publish an article today by John L. Brown titled Microscopical Investigation of Selected Raes Threads from the Shroud of Turin (.pdf format) [190k]

John was a Principal Research Scientist at the Georgia Tech Research Institute's Energy and Materials Sciences Laboratory at the Georgia Institute of Technology until his retirement in 1984. He is an expert microscopist specializing in the field of forensic analysis of material failures, and was enlisted by Ray Rogers to examine samples of selected Raes threads taken from the Shroud in 1973. These threads are important because they were taken from the area immediately adjacent to the sample used for carbon-14 analysis of the Shroud in 1988. In this article, John provides an independent review of the samples he examined, along with seven previously unpublished photomicrographs and scanning electron microscope views that supplement and support the conclusions drawn by Ray in his recent peer reviewed paper. I want to thank John again for taking the time to write the article and provide it to us for today's update. John's article can also be accessed from the Website Library and Scientific Papers & Articles pages of this site.

Posted January 21, 2005

Last edited by movielib; 07-07-05 at 05:40 PM.
Old 07-07-05, 05:37 PM
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Some interesting reading, but the contents are mainly opinion. They also ignore some of Rogers' findings, and the body of evidence outside of the C-14 dated sample that calls the results into question - though to be fair they are specifically rebutting Rogers. Taken in the context of other facts, I feel the 1988 dating test results are anything but definitive in addressing the age of the shroud as a whole.

The GT stuff was from memory. You are correct.
Old 07-07-05, 05:52 PM
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If the carbon dating was indeed botched (which I strongly doubt), you'd think those who control what is done with the Shroud would welcome a retest from a supposedly "better" area. Don't forget, it is believers who control what is done with the Shroud, not the skeptics.

I, for one, would welcome a retest to put an end to the furor raised by Rogers. I am quite sure a retest would yield similar results to 1988. But it seems to me that the controllers are better off with the (I think bogus) doubts raised by Rogers rather than with a new definitive test. Of course, if a new test upheld the old one, I fully expect another Ray Rogers type believer would eventually come up with a way to cast doubts on it also (at least for the true believers).

I think the reasons there will not be another carbon dating are summed up in the Schafersman article (the second one I cited in post #37):

Of course, we scientists must always be grateful to STURP [Shroud of Turin Research Project, a group of scientists overwhelmingly interested in proving the Shroud genuine] for allowing us to get the correct radiocarbon date in the first place: STURP's overwhelming certainty of the authenticity of the Shroud--derived from the massive self-deception of believing their own bogus scientific data and illogical conclusions!--gave the Catholic Church the confidence it needed to permit dating the Shroud and proving once and for all that it was 1st century in origin. Members of STURP literally convinced the Catholic Church to proceed with the radiocarbon dating program, allowing truly neutral, skeptical, and mostly secular scientists (and thus completely different in character from STURP personnel) to get their hands on a piece of the Shroud and subject it to a real scientific test. If the Church thought it was possible to get a 14th century date, it would never have permitted the sampling and dating, since its goal has always been to milk the Shroud for its faith-strengthing qualities. For two decades, STURP has been attempting to make up for their error and get back in the good graces of the Church. I always smile when Rogers and the other believers in the Shroud's authenticity suggest another dating experiment. As they well know, it will never happen!

Last edited by movielib; 07-07-05 at 06:06 PM.
Old 07-07-05, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Needle
Some interesting reading, but the contents are mainly opinion. They also ignore some of Rogers' findings, and the body of evidence outside of the C-14 dated sample that calls the results into question - though to be fair they are specifically rebutting Rogers. Taken in the context of other facts, I feel the 1988 dating test results are anything but definitive in addressing the age of the shroud as a whole...
I think there is much more than opinion in the articles, particularly Schafersman's. The pro-authenticity people always ignore the nondating evidence against authenticity. From my first link in post #37:

Other evidence of medieval fakery includes the shroud’s lack of historical record prior to the mid-fourteenth century—when a bishop reported the artist’s confession—as well as serious anatomical problems, the lack of wraparound distortions, the resemblance of the figure to medieval depictions of Jesus, and suspiciously bright red and picturelike “blood” stains which failed a battery of sophisticated tests by forensic serologists, among many other indicators. These facts argue against Rogers’ assertions that the shroud is neither a forgery nor a miracle—that “the blood is real blood” [3] and the image was produced by “a rotting body” (Rogers 2004).
Old 07-07-05, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by movielib
I think the reasons there will not be another carbon dating are summed up in the Schafersman article (the second one I cited in post #37):
That quotation is 100% specualtion. His rhetoric pretty clearly shows the axe the author has to grind. It seems very important to him that the shroud be shown as a fake for some reason.
Old 07-07-05, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by movielib
I think there is much more than opinion in the articles, particularly Schafersman's. The pro-authenticity people always ignore the nondating evidence against authenticity. From my first link in post #37:
I guess it depends on your definition of what the shroud is supposed to be. Is it a first century relic? The actual burial shroud of Christ? A medieval fakery? But even allowing everything in your quote as fact, none of it is actual evidence of "medieval fakery" as it claims to be. Every one of those assertions could be true and the shroud could still easily be of first century origin. And some of that evidence (such as the no historical record claim) is already pretty strongly disputed.
Old 07-07-05, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Needle
That quotation is 100% specualtion. His rhetoric pretty clearly shows the axe the author has to grind. It seems very important to him that the shroud be shown as a fake for some reason.
No, what he says about the 1988 test is what happened. STURP did talk the Church into allowing the testing. Of course what he predicts for the future is speculation. But it's also an educated speculation based on what has transpired in the past. The Church resisted carbon dating for decades.

As for him wanting the Shroud to be fake, yes he probably does, just like the pro-authenticity people want it to be real. Schafersman though is the one who would welcome a retest. Will it be allowed?
Old 07-07-05, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by movielib
If the carbon dating was indeed botched (which I strongly doubt), you'd think those who control what is done with the Shroud would welcome a retest from a supposedly "better" area. Don't forget, it is believers who control what is done with the Shroud, not the skeptics.

I, for one, would welcome a retest to put an end to the furor raised by Rogers. I am quite sure a retest would yield similar results to 1988. But it seems to me that the controllers are better off with the (I think bogus) doubts raised by Rogers rather than with a new definitive test. Of course, if a new test upheld the old one, I fully expect another Ray Rogers type believer would eventually come up with a way to cast doubts on it also (at least for the true believers).

I think the reasons there will not be another carbon dating are summed up in the Schafersman article (the second one I cited in post #37):
I agree with all of that. I think it is bunk, but I would still like to see more testing done. We simply have better techniques today. Anyway, I think it would be an absolute nightmare if it did turn out to be authentic, but I also think the probability is of that is so remote as to be nil. But the church controls it, and they have a nasty history of trying to keep things under wraps. Mainly because I think they are afraid they might turn out to be crap, even though it is still an amazing piece of history.

People will always chase religious artifacts. The idea of people looking for Noah's Ark is the stupidest of them all.
Old 07-07-05, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by movielib
No, what he says about the 1988 test is what happened. STURP did talk the Church into allowing the testing. Of course what he predicts for the future is speculation. But it's also an educated speculation based on what has transpired in the past. The Church resisted carbon dating for decades.

As for him wanting the Shroud to be fake, yes he probably does, just like the pro-authenticity people want it to be real. Schafersman though is the one who would welcome a retest. Will it be allowed?
I agree, but his incriminating (and somewhat childish) presentation of the church's motivations is also speculation, regardless of what STURP claimed. The church has never maintained the shroud is authentic, and the archbishop of Turin came out after the 1988 C-14 test and basically said well then, it must be medieval.

And should there be more testing, and the new sample dates the shroud to the first century, I doubt Schafersman would be so gracious. He (along with many others) has staked out his position as a non-believing believer, and because of that he exhibits the same traits as the believers he heaps scorn upon.
Old 07-07-05, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Needle
I agree, but his incriminating (and somewhat childish) presentation of the church's motivations is also speculation, regardless of what STURP claimed. The church has never maintained the shroud is authentic, and the archbishop of Turin came out after the 1988 C-14 test and basically said well then, it must be medieval.
Correct, the Catholic Church has never claimed the Shroud is authentic.

And should there be more testing, and the new sample dates the shroud to the first century, I doubt Schafersman would be so gracious. He (along with many others) has staked out his position as a non-believing believer, and because of that he exhibits the same traits as the believers he heaps scorn upon.
I agree he exhibits the same traits as the believers who have also staked out their position (I suppose I do too). As for another carbon dating test, I believe he is confident enough in his position that he is willing to take that chance (as I am). I'm not so sure most on the other side are as eager to have the test done.

Besides, what Schafersman, or I or the believers want to be true does not make it true. I think there is so little doubt I want another test just to finally establish it once and for all. Of course I thought the 1988 test did that and I still do but I also think the True Believers will never accept any evidence, no matter how overwhelming.
Old 07-07-05, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by das Monkey
Of, not from. Should you keep your sanctimonious anti-religion private?

das
My disdain for organized religion does not interfere with others lives. Their sanctimonious bullshit DOES interfere with mine.
Old 07-08-05, 01:21 AM
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Originally Posted by CRM114
My disdain for organized religion does not interfere with others lives. Their sanctimonious bullshit DOES interfere with mine.
They probably see it as just the opposite.
Old 07-08-05, 04:28 AM
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Originally Posted by CRM114
My disdain for organized religion does not interfere with others lives. Their sanctimonious bullshit DOES interfere with mine.
You're being just as preachy as any born-again I've ever spoke to. It's every bit as obnoxious.
Old 07-08-05, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Roto
You're being just as preachy as any born-again I've ever spoke to. It's every bit as obnoxious.
Thats fine though because my rantings don't take a show off the air or edit albums for content or cause federal hearings on nipples. And I disagree with your statement. I'm not being preachy. I'm being matter-of-fact.


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