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30 Days, 6/29

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Old 07-02-05 | 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Groucho
Did you miss the segment where he had to go and try and get people to sign the petition against racial profiling?
Walking around Howell while wearing Muslim clothing is probably as extreme as anything concocted by Fear Factor.
Old 07-02-05 | 09:21 AM
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From: Directionally Challenged (for DirecTV)
Originally Posted by Groucho
I don't think the guy was a jerk. I think he was cautiously open-minded.

I agree. I thought Dave gave the experience a pretty fair shake despite his misconceptions coming in. I'm not religious but I can't imagine it would be easy for anyone to take part in the worship of a different religion (even to just 'go through the motions'), even if it is the same god.
Old 07-02-05 | 10:23 AM
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From: The Planet of the Apes
Originally Posted by Bill Needle
Well, after all your premise was that only some sort of backwoods bumpkin could wonder if something that has happened twice in the last 12 years could happen again. If that tape was from August of 2001, would you still mock him for wondering about it? And of course if there were a muslim sleeper cell in the US today, it would never be in the largest Muslim community in the US, which is the possibility he specifically asked about.
If this episode were filmed right after 9/11 I would still criticize him (not mock him). Regardless of how close to the catastrophe the episode was filmed, I did not, and would not give a guy a pass on ideas that I disagree with.

We disagree not only about the validity of his concerns, but also the depth of his concerns. There is a possibility of short-term sleeper agents in the United States. The idea of long-term sleeper agents--fully integrated into the community--has never been borne out. Terrorists aren't that common to begin with, but the typical profile for potential terrorists in the US is a young, twenty-something recent immigrant who lives alone (or with a couple others). So there is our disagreement as to the validity of his concerns; I don't think there is anything at all to be worried about with the type of Muslims you encounter actually participating in after-prayer Mosque activities, etc.

Now as to the depth of his concerns. When someone called up on the radio show with concerns about his living with Muslims for 30 days, the guy's first question was whether he had witnessed any sleeper activity, as if such activity is so prevalent that he would probably be exposed to it from his host family or someone he would encounter within such a short period of time. Our guy's reaction was not to illustrate that he had seen nothing of the sort, that his host family seemed like decent people, and that everyone else he saw seemed like decent people. Instead he basically said that he shared the concerns, and that he was keeping his eyes peeled. Even if you believe that sleeper cells are a real problem, you have to realize that they are not so widespread that they should be your first concern when amongst Muslims. If you think this, your concept of the Muslim community has been skewed.

Even if you believe that there are significant sleeper agents in the US, you have to realize that the average Muslim knows nothing about them. Other than his kind of backing up the radio caller's ideas, the only other example of this is at the dinner scene, when he asked them if they knew of any sleeper cell activity. How could he possibly think that his host family/friends would know anything about sleeper cells in the U.S. Most of us probably don't even know whether there are meth labs in our city, and if so, where they are. I couldn't tell you where to find a prostitute in my city. Law abiding citizens don't know about illegal activity, especially super-secret terrorist activity! No one in a Muslim community who is not himself involved in terrorism would be able to tell you squat about sleeper cells. And the presumption that anyone at that table would be involved in terrorism is ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Bill Needle
For some reason you really go out of your way to paint this guy as a simple and close-minded bigot. But as you point out, despite what he thought he knew beforehand, he volunteered to try and immerse himself in and learn about this culture and religion for 30 days. So many of your criticisms about him fall apart immediately. He may not have carried it out in a manner fitting your approval, but he did it. And far be it from editing to have something to do with how reality TV plays out. Notice how his beard kept getting both longer and shorter throughout the show?.
You are projecting here. I never tried to portray him as a bigot. But I think his thought process at a couple parts was alternately inconsiderate, simple minded, or closed minded (more closed minded than I would like from someone who--by the rules of the show--was supposed to try his best to open his mind further than he did). How do my criticisms fall apart simply because he agreed to do the show? I don't see any logical connection there. In agreeing to do something meritorious, you can fail. You defend him saying "He may not have carried it out in a manner fitting your approval, but he did it." That's the point--not fitting my approval. Hence, getting on this forum to critique it.

Originally Posted by Bill Needle
Lastly, it is my belief, and apparently his, that God does not ignore blasphemy as long as it is for the sake of good TV and the entertainment of the millions watching. I'll bet Muslims and Christians agree on that as well. So I cut him some slack in wanting to be more knowledgeable and spiritually comfortable in his actions before he participated in full. You choose not to, and it is your right.
Yes, that is my right, and I criticize those whose concept of blasphemy I find so ridiculous. Some Muslims may agree with your concept of blasphemy, but if so they are ignoring a basic concept of their faith. First of all, anything he did that was against his faith during the course of the show might not be characterized as simply for the entertainment of millions, but rather for personal education. Second of all, the better reasoned view regarding blasphemy is that it depends on your thought process, or mens rea. Religious belief is entirely subjective--it cannot be objectively measured by overt acts. You could pray five times a day for your entire life, but presumably if you didn't believe any of it, you weren't a good Muslim. Eating pork or drinking alcohol (which is blasphemy in Islam) is not considered blasphemy if it is done by accident. Overt actions, such as praying in a manner typically reserved for a different religion, should not constitute blasphemy if you do not believe in the truth of what you are doing. Nor would God, if he is all-knowing, misunderstand your motivations and fault you for undertaking these actions for educational purposes.

Imagine if a Muslim were on a 30 Days about Christianity, and he refused to eat pork. The mere act of deliberately eating pork is blasphemy, thus there is no fault in refusing. But if he were asked to take communion, he should do it. He doesn't have to believe that its the body and blood of Christ. Its not blashphemy to eat it.

Just because I am heavily criticizing these particular aspects of his conduct doesn't mean that I think the vast majority would neccesarily do any better. But I am criticizing what he did by comparing it to what I think a logical person should have done. This isn't about defending the Islamic faith or how Muslims would behave if they were in his position. Many Muslims aren't known for their willingness to learn about different cultures, and that isn't a good thing. I have personally been alternately disowned/accepted back in by my family because I repudiated certain aspects of my parent's faith/culture. If my father were on 30 days, it wouldn't have been pretty. Course, they wouldn't have accepted him, nor would he have signed up, because of the fact that he wouldn't want to follow the rules of the show. The point is, if he were on the show, criticism of his behavior might also be also be warranted.

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