Carnivāle "New Canaan, CA" (season finale) 3/27/05
03-27-05, 10:20 PM
#26
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If Jonesy was the sole trade-off (a life for a life), then why did the cornfields die?
Also, wasn't it somewhat prophetic that the last image we have of Ben is behind Management's curtains?
Also, wasn't it somewhat prophetic that the last image we have of Ben is behind Management's curtains?
03-27-05, 10:20 PM
#27
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Originally Posted by coladar
I answered this a couple minutes ago, maybe it's getting missed in the spoiler space. It's just putting 1 and 1 together, so let me repeat it without the spoilers:
The Omega doesn't take sides, it keeps a balance between good and evil. It is neutral like we all assumed. But, the difference is not that it is the combination of good and evil to take the place of the Avatars, but just to keep the balance.
She killed Jonesy to bring Justin back. The crops died because she was saving Ben, which is why the camera zoomed in on him in managements trailer at the end.
The Omega doesn't take sides, it keeps a balance between good and evil. It is neutral like we all assumed. But, the difference is not that it is the combination of good and evil to take the place of the Avatars, but just to keep the balance.
She killed Jonesy to bring Justin back. The crops died because she was saving Ben, which is why the camera zoomed in on him in managements trailer at the end.
oh, i guess i just didn't make the connection between the crops and ben...
03-27-05, 10:21 PM
#28
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Originally Posted by coladar
She killed Jonesy to bring Justin back. The crops died because she was saving Ben, which is why the camera zoomed in on him in managements trailer at the end.
So, Sofie's the reason why this finale provided so little closure.
03-27-05, 10:27 PM
#31
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What a great finale. I thought it was beautifully done, from the visual imagery and the symbolism (i.e. Ben on the cross) to the excellent pacing and writing.
Some thoughts on the episode:
Maybe Sofie's power is limited to only healing Justin after he is killed, some sort of backup so to speak.
Someone mentioned that a female cannot be an avatar, was this mentioned in an earlier episode? What if Justin has no other children, how will this cycle continue? Unless of course this is the last generation that this battle will be fought. Which seems plausible given the earlier refrences to man moving towards science and away from spirituality (or something like that).
If there will be more generations of avatars, wouldn't Sofie be the next good one? And if she is preggers with Ben Jr., wouldn't that child be the evil one? Which is interesting in itself, because there has now been a 'mixing' of the good/evil blood lines, which would possibly end the cycle. Ahhhh...so many questions...
Lastly, is there anything we as fans can do to try and persuade HBO to pick this up for a third season? I highly doubt there is anything that can be done based on the past efforts of other fans trying the same thing. But I guess if there is something I could do, I might as well try.
Which is kind of funny, b/c although I am a passionate fan of many shows, I have never once considered activley doing something to help save a show. Just goes to show how much I like this one. I am even considering making the 2 seasons of this show the very first Season DVDs I have ever bought. I think it would be great to rewatch this from the beginning now that I have seen it once.
Some thoughts on the episode:
Maybe Sofie's power is limited to only healing Justin after he is killed, some sort of backup so to speak.
Someone mentioned that a female cannot be an avatar, was this mentioned in an earlier episode? What if Justin has no other children, how will this cycle continue? Unless of course this is the last generation that this battle will be fought. Which seems plausible given the earlier refrences to man moving towards science and away from spirituality (or something like that).
If there will be more generations of avatars, wouldn't Sofie be the next good one? And if she is preggers with Ben Jr., wouldn't that child be the evil one? Which is interesting in itself, because there has now been a 'mixing' of the good/evil blood lines, which would possibly end the cycle. Ahhhh...so many questions...
Lastly, is there anything we as fans can do to try and persuade HBO to pick this up for a third season? I highly doubt there is anything that can be done based on the past efforts of other fans trying the same thing. But I guess if there is something I could do, I might as well try.
Which is kind of funny, b/c although I am a passionate fan of many shows, I have never once considered activley doing something to help save a show. Just goes to show how much I like this one. I am even considering making the 2 seasons of this show the very first Season DVDs I have ever bought. I think it would be great to rewatch this from the beginning now that I have seen it once.
Last edited by dave-o; 03-27-05 at 10:32 PM.
03-27-05, 10:28 PM
#32
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I don't think that Sophie was healing Ben.... If shooting Jonesy was all she needed to do to resurrect Justin, then why did she walk over to Justin's body before using the crops to heal Ben?
Besides, when Ben resurrected Ruthie, she came to life as soon as he killed Lodz. But Justin didn't get up as soon as Sophie killed Jonesy.
Besides, when Ben resurrected Ruthie, she came to life as soon as he killed Lodz. But Justin didn't get up as soon as Sophie killed Jonesy.
Last edited by Ted The Bug; 03-27-05 at 10:31 PM.
03-27-05, 10:33 PM
#33
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Originally Posted by Burnt Alive
The only problem with Sophie killing Jonesy is that she shot him. She didn't use his energy to transfer into Justin or Ben.
03-27-05, 10:33 PM
#34
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Originally Posted by dave-o
Someone mentioned that a female cannot be an avatar, was this mentioned in an earlier episode? What if Justin has no other children, how will this cycle continue? Unless of course this is the last generation that this battle will be fought. Which seems plausible given the earlier refrences to man moving towards science and away from spirituality (or something like that).
From: "Daniel Knauf" <fboffo@y...>
Date: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:05 pm
Subject: Re: Prophet, Prince, Usher
Lots of folks got pieces of it right, but you're the first one to put them all together. Correct on all counts, including my riddle.
To clarify the rules established so far -
Two Avatars per generation -
eldest males, one light, one dark;
One Prophet (Dominant/eldest male) per House;
One or more Princes (Ascendant males), depending on the number of generations alive at any time;
Date: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:05 pm
Subject: Re: Prophet, Prince, Usher
Lots of folks got pieces of it right, but you're the first one to put them all together. Correct on all counts, including my riddle.
To clarify the rules established so far -
Two Avatars per generation -
eldest males, one light, one dark;
One Prophet (Dominant/eldest male) per House;
One or more Princes (Ascendant males), depending on the number of generations alive at any time;
03-27-05, 10:34 PM
#35
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
What if the crops dying was just a side-effect of Sophie trying to force the boon from Justin's body, so she could be a true avatar? That could be why she laid her hands on him.
EDIT: Ok, nevermind, after reading the post above mine.
EDIT: Ok, nevermind, after reading the post above mine.
Last edited by Tom Banjo; 03-27-05 at 10:36 PM.
03-27-05, 10:36 PM
#36
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
Originally Posted by Tom Banjo
What if the crops dying was just a side-effect of Sophie trying to force the boon from Justin's body, so she could be a true avatar? That could be why she laid her hands on him.
03-27-05, 10:39 PM
#37
DVD Talk Hero
Is Sofie the Usher?
After Ben killed Justin, I was sort of expecting to see her pull her dress off and have the tree tattoo.
I'm not really sure what was happening in the cornfield.
Since she is the daughter of an Avatar/Prophet (Justin), it could make her a "Prince". But Knauf had said that Avatars are only males. The powers she displayed - the dying cornfield - are the same powers that Ben displayed, so in that regard, it almost looks she's inherited his old place. But the black eyes are distinctly Justin.
Also, it doesn't make a lot of sense for her to resurrect Justin IF she's the "Child of Light"'s Prince. Maybe she was taking his place as the Usher in the cornfield. The idea that the Usher of Destruction is the final "Creature of Darkness" who brings about the end times would jibe with Lodz' message that she was The Omega. ("Omega" being the end.)
Jonesy... dead or not? She could've used Stroud's lifeforce to resurrect Jonesy. Maybe she killed him to bring him back to life as her servant.
HBO... Third season. Do it. Hell, just give Daniel Knauf the four more seasons he needs. Just let us breathe easy.
After Ben killed Justin, I was sort of expecting to see her pull her dress off and have the tree tattoo.
I'm not really sure what was happening in the cornfield.
Since she is the daughter of an Avatar/Prophet (Justin), it could make her a "Prince". But Knauf had said that Avatars are only males. The powers she displayed - the dying cornfield - are the same powers that Ben displayed, so in that regard, it almost looks she's inherited his old place. But the black eyes are distinctly Justin.
Also, it doesn't make a lot of sense for her to resurrect Justin IF she's the "Child of Light"'s Prince. Maybe she was taking his place as the Usher in the cornfield. The idea that the Usher of Destruction is the final "Creature of Darkness" who brings about the end times would jibe with Lodz' message that she was The Omega. ("Omega" being the end.)
Jonesy... dead or not? She could've used Stroud's lifeforce to resurrect Jonesy. Maybe she killed him to bring him back to life as her servant.
HBO... Third season. Do it. Hell, just give Daniel Knauf the four more seasons he needs. Just let us breathe easy.
03-27-05, 10:40 PM
#38
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
Originally Posted by ivelostr2
didnt ben choke Lodz? there was no energy trasfer there right. but the fact that it wasn't instantaneous like with Ruthie makes me think...
03-27-05, 10:41 PM
#39
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Originally Posted by Josh-da-man
Is Sofie the Usher?
A Prince must kill a Prophet with his own hands in order to gain his full measure of power.
The Usher of Destruction: An Avataric Prophet who has been foretold as a harbinger of the End Times. There is only ONE Usher. He's been foretold in a thousand books by a thousand names. The Usher must be an Avatar, but not all Avatars are the Usher.
The Usher of Destruction: An Avataric Prophet who has been foretold as a harbinger of the End Times. There is only ONE Usher. He's been foretold in a thousand books by a thousand names. The Usher must be an Avatar, but not all Avatars are the Usher.
03-27-05, 10:42 PM
#40
DVD Talk Special Edition
Originally Posted by ivelostr2
didnt ben choke Lodz? there was no energy trasfer there right. but the fact that it wasn't instantaneous like with Ruthie makes me think...
03-27-05, 10:43 PM
#41
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
Originally Posted by coladar
Per the creator of the show, Dan Knauf:
From: "Daniel Knauf"
Date: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:05 pm
Subject: Re: Prophet, Prince, Usher
Lots of folks got pieces of it right, but you're the first one to put them all together. Correct on all counts, including my riddle.
To clarify the rules established so far -
Two Avatars per generation -
eldest males, one light, one dark;
One Prophet (Dominant/eldest male) per House;
One or more Princes (Ascendant males), depending on the number of generations alive at any time; .
From: "Daniel Knauf"
Date: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:05 pm
Subject: Re: Prophet, Prince, Usher
Lots of folks got pieces of it right, but you're the first one to put them all together. Correct on all counts, including my riddle.
To clarify the rules established so far -
Two Avatars per generation -
eldest males, one light, one dark;
One Prophet (Dominant/eldest male) per House;
One or more Princes (Ascendant males), depending on the number of generations alive at any time; .
hey, she was a dirty carnie, maybe she's a hermaphrodyte as well. not only a mix of good and bad, but m/f too...
03-27-05, 10:48 PM
#44
DVD Talk Special Edition
Originally Posted by BJacks
So Sophie can't be the usher since she can't be an Avatar. Ok, there goes that. So what are we left with?
03-27-05, 10:53 PM
#47
DVD Talk Special Edition
Originally Posted by Ted The Bug
Hey........ what if it wasn't Sophie at the end there.... but Lodz controlling her body?
03-27-05, 10:56 PM
#48
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
Anyone have a take on "this is your house" ? I know it could just mean that she is the heir to Justin, but you think there might have been a deeper meaning?
ANd if her mom was trying to kill her before, why would she be there to empower her like that. she always seemed to be warning her, not helping her on the path...
ANd if her mom was trying to kill her before, why would she be there to empower her like that. she always seemed to be warning her, not helping her on the path...
03-27-05, 10:58 PM
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I was scouring over a log of a chat Knauf did recently. To answer the assumption a few in this thread, and I myself held, that son of evil avatar is good and vice versa... At least I think this quote answers that, it's not exactly crystal clear:
Question: Sue_C: Moral default? So if Avatar "A" is cofl then the next Avatar up to bat will be cofd by default? Are the Avatara able to make the moral choice or forced willy nilly to play what role is given them?
DKnauf: Sue, the assignment of base nature is totally random. Just a cosmic throw of the dice. But it IS operative from birth. And, like I said, bse nature can be subverted or overidden by free will.
DKnauf: Sue, the assignment of base nature is totally random. Just a cosmic throw of the dice. But it IS operative from birth. And, like I said, bse nature can be subverted or overidden by free will.