I've been lurking on this thread and the Buffy thread, but the State reference forced me out of "lurkerdom."

My wife and I got into Buffy and Angel a couple of years. Before that, I'd seen two episodes. Having only seen the movie, I was surprised that Buffy was surrounded by a bunch of people who had special abilities or powers or whatever, and referred to it as a kind of "spooky Justice League, and stupid."

Anyway, that was during its initial run. Flash forward to Season Six of Buffy. My wife was pregnant, and kept getting up at weird times. FX was running Buffy like 4 times daily, and she started watching the morning episodes. They were two hours, running concurrently. So it took about two weeks or so to get through a whole season. I guess she caught it on a first season run. So she ended up watching it and tracked down tapes of the first part of season six so she could get caught up. Eventually she got me into it, and we both enjoyed Buffy, and eventually Angel. We've got all the boxsets now, and I've changed my opinion to a kind of "spooky Justice League, but cool."

Not that anyone asked, but here's how I rate them:

Angel S3
Angel S4
Angel S5
Angel S1
Angel S2

Don't worry, not going to spoil anything. Season two didn't work for me as much because I thought the major arc was too silly and too long. On the flipside, I think Season three is the single best thing Joss Whedon and company have put out, period. As for Buffy:

Buffy S3
Buffy S5
Buffy S2
Buffy S6
Buffy S7
Buffy S1
Buffy S4

Season 4 was rough to get through, Hush episode nonwithstanding.

Also, I'm Doug, and I'm out of here.

Heh, if you could stand reading pretty much anything posted on that board, you're stronger than I am. That place was insane.

I've fallen behind a bit updating Angel, so unfortunately I may blur what happens w/ what ep & forgot a lot of stuff.

"I've Got You Under My Skin" - Hated, hated, hated this ep. By far my least favorite of the series & ranks up there with any of the worste Buffy eps ever. I just found everything about this boring, especially the main story. About half way in I started playing pool for the rest of the ep, & I've really made it a point to watch every second of everything from both shows.

"The Prodigal" - A heavy dose of Angel backstory in this one. I actually don't care for the back story all that much. Aside from the unbearable bad accent, the backstory has been explained so many times, that for me, there is no need to see it. School girl vampire from early Buffy comes back & I think we find out Angel's real name is "Liam" , so where does Angelas come from? It can't be his last name b/c it certainly isn't Irish. Didn't really care about Kate's dad dying or any of that story b/c I don't like Kate.

"The Ring" - This one wasn't that good, but it had octagon fighting tournaments of death. Anything is better with octagon fighting tournaments of death. If somehow "Steel Magnolias" had octagon fighting tournaments of death it would be better. And the on-line Demon Database is one of the most retarded things either show has ever done.

"Eternity" - What is there like 5 eps left in the season & we are still getting self-contained eps. I though the chick in this one was really hot. How on earth was Angel able to break into her house though to save her? He just crashed right in, it was the first time he was there, so he was never invited. I had a bigger problem with this episode though.

My problem: I thought that it was the true happiness of the culmination of pure love with sex that brings about Angelus & thus Angel's curse? But its just actually happiness in any form? A simple micky can cause it? That is pretty lame. What if Angel has a good day & he is just happy for a moment? What if he comes across a cute puppy? Puppies make anyone happy, so he can't even play with a puppy? Evil Angel is great, but I was kind of hoping he would come back in some big epic way, not in such a simple fashion. Now they have jumped the shark with evil Angel.

"Five By Five" - Great episode, definitely the best of the series so far. When I saw the ep title on the menue I got happy right away b/c I figured it was a Faith ep. But for this same reason I kind of wish I watched all of Angel once I finished w/ Buffy, just to be surprised by seeing characters from the past that I really like. Even w/ this ep, what I like the most about Faith (aside from watching her dance) is that they have never "jumped the shark" w/ her character the way they did with Spike, or even a few other characters. Its just been a natural progression w/ Faith & almost every time we see her we get further insight into just how damaged & tragic she is. We get a lot of Wolfram & Hart which I assume, with some recurring characters starting to pop up, & I assume they will become the big bad of the end of the season & possibly next. I normally would have a problem w/ Angel wanting to help Faith in the end after all she has done, the same way I hate Willow for wanting to help Spike, but Angel probably sees himself in Faith, torturing Wesley was very similar to when Angel tortured Giles.

now that's sig material.

Didn't she invite him over to look at her old episodes earlier on? She also could have invited him to come in off-camera at some point, too...

Well, the actual term is "perfect happiness". While sleeping with Buffy did cause the curse to kick in, it isn't necessarily sex per se, it just so happened that at that point, he was perfectly happy. It has to do with him at any point not feeling remorse for his past actions and being happy.

In all honesty, I think the episodes you just watched are Exhibit A for the case that the producers just didn't have a clue what they were doing in Season 1. And yes, with five episodes left, there is no overriding story arc. There's a little bit of an arc in terms of Angel's relationship with Kate, but there's no overriding arc like there is in the other seasons of Angel or in every season of Buffy.

Angel got the name Angelus because

Edit: Did I goof up? I thought the origin of the name was revealed in the Prodigal, which Sessa watched and commented on. If not, I apologize, and thanks to Jadzia for covering my tracks with spoiler space.

Sessa, I actually agree with your latest ep opinions. S1 of AtS was very fragmented. They were still figuring out the show's identity, trying to make it different from BtVS but still entertaining. The last disc really hits on some stuff that plays out throughout the entire series, and I think it all really came about with the Faith eps. S2 is a lot more surefooted.

L8r

I had similiar issues with the "pure happiness" thing. I didn't interpret it at sex like most of the people in the show, but sex + love kinda deal. Plus I thought it was a trigger for "losing his soul". I don't see how some happy pills could make him temporarily lose his soul. I can see drugs having the same effect, and thus triggering the change, but I don't understand how it would be temporary and suddenly his soul would come back when the drugs wore off.

It would have been better IMO if they would have had to bring Willow up from SunnyDale to put his soul back in if they wanted to play the Evil Angel game.

Dont worry too much about the 'perfect happiness' thing. As you'll see later in the series the show itself even pokes fun at it.

My impression was that Angel's soul didn't go anywhere - he just thought it did, so he acted as if he did not have one.

I think his soul was buried beneath while the demon returned to the surface and took control, temporarily. He didn't really "lose" his soul. When he loses his soul it's not easy to get back.

Usually the demon is buried beneath the soul. The soul keeps the demon inside at bay, but it's still there. It's not exactly easy for Angel to keep the demon inside at bay either. If you can remember, Doyle kind of gave Angel a warning in the first episode about what he might do to an innocent eventually.

Angel got his name from his sister. When he came back as vampire she thought he was angel. Also The COW called him the vampire with the angelic face. Darla like the reference so named him Angelus a play on the word Angel. It was mainly from his sister. Angel retold the story to Darla on how he killed his family and the part about the sister she liked the most I guess.

Once Angelus got his soul back he changed his name to Angel but bad guys and good guys alike often use whatever name they first knew him as.

Liam is another way of saying William which is ironically also Spikes' real name.

Buffy got her name while her mother was high on drugs. That is just a guess though.

i loved "I Will Remember You" its one of my favorite angel episodes

Traditional vampires like The Master's Order of Aurelius will normally develop a new vampire name based on how they make an early kill. Often decided by the sire. Actually, pretty common in any vampires now that I think of it, not just ones decended from The Master. Other posters have explained where Angel got his name correctly. It was in the same episode.

As for the soul/drug thing, I explained the the Buffy thread, that a soul is just a conscience. It's what makes someone want to do good. This is explained pretty well in 5x5. Angel IS Angelus. He's just Angelus with the ability to feel regret for what he has done. The drug clouded this, it made him lose control. That's why he started acting that way again. This is why Angel actually feels guility about what he's done in the past, because it WAS him doing it. Not some other "demon soul" controlling him. Just the lack a human one that would stop him from doing the acts. It's like someone who takes drugs and does something terrible because of it. It was them who did it, the drug helped make it possible.

"Perfect Happiness" is when Angel stops feeling guilty, is my guess. Because what else is perfect happiness for him? Before, It happened when he was in love and had sex. This is why he doesn't want to ever get close to anyone again. It's all pretty much up in the air though, no one knows what really can cause it. That's why everyone is so prepaired to kill Angel if it ever happens again.

Finally - Angel was able to get into that house, because the woman invited him over to her place earlier on (when meeting in his office). Angel even said "Thanks for the invitation..."

Good explanations BizRodian.

OK, finished the rest of the firist season over the weekend.

"Sanctuary" - A half good ep. The goos is that I thought it was a perfect ending for the Faith character (assuming this is the last we see of her). Like I said earlier, I never felt that they "jumped the shark" w/ the character & after all she has done, its seems fit that it would end with her in jail (although if she wanted to, she could get out pretty easily). What I didn't like, as usual was the Buffy/Angel stuff & I really thought Buffy came off as what she is, a whiny selfish brat.

"War Zone" - Didn't like this one too much. It had a demon brothel, & demon brothels are cool, but as following the rule of Buffy/Angel, when I think something is cool & want to see more of it, neither show every goes in that direction. Homeless gangsta vampire hunters is one of the dumber Angel/Buffy ideas IMO. This seems to be the intro to a possible new character, & while I like the idea of Angel having a friend to go to for help in times of trouble, I don't like who it is. The guy is just boring so far & how could a guy who devotes his life to hunting vamps, never ask Angel why he doesn't kill humans. Another thing I don't like is that Wesley seems to have lost his goofiness & awkwardness that made him so enjoyable in his first couple of eps. Also, Angel got shot w/ an Arrow through the hand & in the next scene there wasn't even a scar, but the the cuts on the rest of his body were still there, & all the torturing that happened to Wesley is gone as well.

"Blind Date" - Really liked this one a lot. The Daredevil chick was cool. What I liked the most about this ep though is Lindsey. It looks like the show may finally be setting up a foil for Angel, & the two play great off each other. I think he was in the first ep of the season & I didn't think anything of him, but just this one ep they really fleshed out his character, I definitely dig him & hope he sticks around. I like that it wasn't a trap he was setting up for Angel, but for one brief moment he actually wanted out of that life only to be tempted & lured right back into it. Also this ep introduced that prophecy thing that reminds me a lot of the "Rembaldi" stuff from Alias. The only thing I didn't like was Angel already going to the homeless vampire hunter (forgot his name) for help already.

"To Shanshu in L.A." - This didn't really seem like a season finale for me b/c nothing really happened aside from Darla coming back at the very ending. I thought Wesley was going to die for sure in that explosion. I thought Charisma did some really good acting in this ep. I like that Angel refers to Cord as family (which I think he did in an earlier ep when he didn't even have to). Remember when I said there was no character I hated on this show, there is now, Kate. I just cringe whenever she is on scree. Such an awful actress as well. Glad the Oracles died if for no other reason than we won't have to see them & that awful set anymore. I thought that Lindsey getting his hand chopped off was WAY to villainy cliche. I liked Angel's extremely subtle reaction to finding out that he may become human "That would be nice".

Now it's gonna start to get good and then... great!

Ha! You sound like a Law&Order fan.

My wife and I were overjoyed when Wesley stopped being the pratfalling retard and started helping out the team.

i still cant believe the series ended....

Wesley is the best character ever.

As one of ANGEL's biggest fans, I admit I am totally biased in my (over)enjoyment of the series, and as such some of the less-than-favorable comments make me cringe, but to those who are indeed new to the series...The best is yet to come.

Also, I might add, I'm in probably a small minority when I say as much as I love ANGEL, I can't stand the exploits of that little slayer, and will always resent the fact that ANGEL will always live in the shadows of that originating show. In fact, the only reason I watched it was to catch up on the events and characters that were refrenced, particularly in the first two seasons.

Not knowing a thing about it, (I didn't even know the lead was a vampire) I saw previews for this new show that looked cool and had a guy in a long dark coat...I thought 'what the heck', and checked it out. While the idea of the 'double stakes' in the pilot are considered cheap by some here, I was totally won over by the teaser and theme alone.

Well, that's my two cents, anyway.

I envy those who are discovering it for the first time.

I would say that that falls into the category of judging something too harshly and not being "into" it. It's similar to saying that a character getting his hand chopped off is "cliche." It's not cliche, it's a thing that happened. The show uses elements from stories of the past and explores the emotions and characters of its own universe with them. While I love these threads, some of the comments do strike me as silly. I could watch Gone With The Wind and say "god, like anyone would ever act so selfish!" or Citizen Kane and say "He's an egomaniac asshole" but then I'd miss what's really going on.

Those two examples are completely different & don't mean the same thing & while I'm sure fans of the shows think most of my criticisms are silly I don't think this is one of them. Stating that one is "missing what is really going on" just b/c they think the bit with the 2 stakes is an overused action technique is taking it a bit far to me. All I'm commenting on is one little action choice. It seemed to me that someone just watched Desperado & thought it looked cool so lets have Angel do something similar.

Same thing with Lindsey. Yeah, its a "thing that happened" but that doesn't mean its not a cliche. I could be wrong b/c I don't know what happens, but its an often used villain plot device. A device that once was shocking, that gives the viewer a more palpable reason why the villain has a hatred for the hero while giving the bad guy a more sinister quality (eye patch, scar, dismemberment, etc etc, all typical villain cliches). I didn't think Lindsey needed that, especially coming off of the great episode previously.

I loved this ep. And Boreanaz's reaction at the end (That would be nice) was some of his best acting. I cringed everytime they went to the Oracles, damn that was so goofy looking. And there's a certain thing in your post that always stuck in my head throughout the series and because of it there's parts of the series that I could never enjoy. I'll elaborate later after you get through those eps.

I don't think any of this is really spoiler material, but someone yell at me if it is and I'll edit.

I think you'll find that the hand is really pretty unimportant. It's not really a defining moment for his character nor does it change anything about his presence. He's not going to pop up with a hook attached to his arm or anything (this is not Arrested Development!)...the moment just defines Angel and Lindsey as "sworn enemies", and they move on from there. There are much more important things for Lindsey to deal with.

I'd like to add to that (not really a spoiler) by saying Lindsey copes with the loss of his hand in a realistic manner, being frustrated at not being able to complete certain tasks in a 'normal' fashion, etc.

Nothing over-the-top about it.

If that's considered a spoiler, in this case it's a spoiler of reassurance?