Oh, I doubt that very much. But thank you anyway. :) :D

I have meager knowledge on the subject when compared to most of the people on www.jfklancer.com (which I like to refer to as "AKA: Conspiracies R Us!" :)).

And -- movielib (and any others interested in the JFK assassination), in case you've never checked out the HTF threads on the subject, I'd recommend you do so. Some additional fascinating reading over there.

This 40th Anniversary Thread is still showing some current activity.

Plus -- there's this one as well.

good one good one! Umm, O.K. what about them mysteriously flying his body off to D.C. and not letting the local doctors perform the autopsy, instead insisting the Government doctors do it?

"Mysteriously??" The moving of the President's body to Washington could hardly be termed as "mysterious", being done so in the full glare of media attention and a worldwide Live TV audience.

Now, if you meant to say "illegally" .... then you might (probably do I suppose) have a valid point. Because the murder occurred in Dallas County, the autopsy, by the letter of the law, should have taken place in Dallas County.

However, I seriously doubt that merely the location of the autopsy would have changed the results, or (for that matter) have changed the participants who conducted it. Because I'd be willing to bet, even if the autopsy WAS held in Dallas, that U.S. Officialdom would still have stepped in and insisted that "Official Govt. people" perform the autopsy of the century (which, granted, WAS botched in many respects).

However, the pictures and x-rays are the real keys to the autopsy. Doctor recollections can vary (like eyewitness testimony to any big event/crime).

But the photos taken DO NOT LIE. Unless you subscribe to the fanciful (and unproven) tale that ALL the autopsy photos AND X-RAYS have been altered by evil-doers. This, like all the other 389 instances of "fakery" in the case that CTers love to spout, has never been proven to be true, even marginally so. It's fodder for conspiracy buffs, like so many other things that seem to have taken on a life of their own decades after the event.

EXACTLY!!!!!!

I am watching TmwkK right now and am just STARTLED at what is being said in this fascinating program!

davip have you seen TmwkK? I urgently encourage you to pick this up ASAP! They go into steep detail showing how the grassy knole area DID indeed have someone there with a rifle dressed up as a cop!!! Also the investigator who breaks his silence and talks about how he tracked down sources linked to the REAL killers of JFK!!!!!!

By the way Cracksky, I am trying to track down a link to this new 40th ann version of TmwkK but can't locate a place that has it for sale. The one listed at Aamazon appears to be the same 2 disc 300 minute version. Can you find me a link please?

Cracksky, please tell me where I can order this new 40th ann version of TmwkK. Thanks bud.

No offense, isamu, but I feel like I'm talking to a wall. Every once in a while you pop up with one of those "but what about...?" posts. davidvp and/or I answer. You never acknowledge, agree with or disagree with the answer, you just go on to the next "but what about...?"

Furthermore, you never respond to the forensic evidence that we keep presenting to you, along with many links involving years of work by experts, to back us up. For example, we show how the forensic evidence is totally consistent with the shots coming from behind and that it is impossible for a shot from the grassy knoll to have done the damage that was done to JFK's head and brain. If you think these people are wrong, what is your evidence? And sorry, someone said this or saw that or heard the other thing is entirely insufficient in the face of such strong forensic evidence.

On March 18, 1975 (I know the date because I remember missing the episode of M*A*S*H with Henry Blake's death) I went to a live show where Mark Lane (author of Rush to Judgment, one of the first conspiracy books) made a three hour or so presentation of why there there was a conspiracy. It was the first time I saw the Zapruder film (and that seemed to me to provide evidence for the fatal shot from the front but I didn't understand the physics of it then). I had leaned toward a conspiracy explanation for years and Lane's presentation seemed so powerful I remember saying to my wife: "If there is something to 1/10 of what Mark Lane said tonight, there had to have been a conspiracy." Well, it turned out that there wasn't anything to anything he said (that is, in my opinion, formed gradually over the years that followed and cemented by reading Gerald Posner's Case Closed in 1993 and strengthened since by ever stronger forensic evidence made possible by ever improving forensic technology and methods).

I have seen parts of some of those documentaries purporting to prove a conspiracy and, of course, I have seen JFK several times and have the highest regard for it as great cinema. But as history or fact, JFK and these documentaries look to me like the Mark Lane show I saw almost three decades ago: apparently plausible on the surface but quite worthless when placed alongside the actual evidence, particularly the forensic evidence.

movielib....if you havent seen TmwkK, I encourage you to do so. I was starting to do a 180 degrees after reading what you and davidp had to say. But after watching this show in its entirety, there is just WAAAAY too much evidence to support a conspiracy! What was so good about this "Case Closed" book that cemented your opinions that there was no conspiracy. What has he brought to the surface that is so concrete to suggest LHO was the lone gunman? Forensic evidence? Please. If the can alter the friggin autopsy photos, changing them from a ridiculously large gaping hole in the right back of JFK's head to a small entrance wound, what makes you think they whatever comes out their mouths regarding forensic evidence can be taken as the truth? Movie...please PLEASE order The Men Who Killed Kennedy(preferrably the new version I'm currently trying to hunt down) ASAP! I can almost promise it will change your mind about the case.

First of all, the idea that autopsy photos were faked has to be one of the more ludicrous claims of the conspiracists, especially using 1963 technology. And even if they were (which they weren't), what would that have to do with the forensic techniques being used over the last decade or so which use the Zapruder film as the template for reconstruction? Are these people all part of the conspiracy too? And they don't just talk; they show, frame by frame, things such as the precise positions of Kennedy and Connally, their physical movements and reactions and how the so-called magic bullet is perfectly consistent with both Kennedy's and Connally's wounds. I say thank goodness we have the Zapruder film because it is the irrefutable (IMO) evidence for the three bullets from behind theory (first one missed, second one hit JFK and Connally, third hit JFK in the back of the head). Or was the Zapruder film faked or altered by these seemingly omnipotent killers who can keep the biggest secret in the world for 40 years?

Posner's book is a painstaking reconstruction of the life of LHO and, moment by moment, his activities on 11-22-63 as well as an explanation of the 8 or so seconds during which the shots were fired. He has a thorough explanation of the "magic bullet" which has been confirmed and strengthened by work done in the last decade. And he refutes many of the claims of the conspiracists (not all, but how could one refute all the ridiculous things that have been said in under 100,000 pages?).

I don't want to buy TMWKK but I will watch it in full the next time the Mythtery (sorry, couldn't resist) Channel shows it (I have seen parts of it before).

bump for cracksy...still looking for the 40th anniversary of TmwkK

Indeed. Especially when you factor in the fact that the 1970s investigative panel, the HSCA, came to the very same conclusions regarding Oswald being the only gunman who hit anyone in the car. They did claim, of course, that a 4th shot (from the Knoll area) probably "missed" the car altogether, meaning a conspiracy "probably existed". BUT -- also consider the evidence on which this "4th Shot" evidence is based ---- a very distorted motorcycle radio dictabelt sound recording, supposedly "proving" a fourth shot. BUT, the only (tiny :)) problem with this is that what they say is a "shot" has been proven to have been recorded on the dictabelt more than a full minute AFTER the assassination....by a vehicle that was at THE TRADE MART, and not even close to Dealey Plaza! So much for a 4th missile. :)

It appears the only way (right now) to get the "Final Chapter" (last 3 segments) of TMWKK is to go direct to The History Channel website (outrageous price, but they do seem to have the "add-on" segments on DVD) ......

http://store.aetv.com/html/product/index.jhtml?id=71255



Yes, I have the 2-disc DVD, which has 6 parts on it...lacking the most-recent (and utterly ridiculous) last 3 sections...which include an entire 60-minute program ("The Love Affair"), in which a woman has crawled out of the woodwork and insists she was having a torrid love affair with Lee Harvey Oswald just prior to 11/22/63. Movielib -- you'd just love her "emotional" account of her final meeting with Lee (when Lee, she says, was attempting desperately to call off the assassination at the 11th hour! Pity he didn't make a more concerted effort, huh?) :lol: (Sorry, but I had to laugh at that segment of the A&E broadcast...esp. where she "can't go on! Please turn off the camera!") :) Just did not ring true to this viewer.

Needless to say, I WON'T be upgrading to the 3-disc set of TMWKK. :)

I found TMWKK series to be quite dry, and drawn-out in many instances...with the usual amount of speculation and conjecture and "witnesses popping up after the fact" to claim they remembered something.

Another instance of this is the Gordon Arnold story, in which Arnold (evidently YEARS later) returns to the USA to tell his story. He supposedly had a rifle shot whiz right past his ear near the Grassy Knoll on 11/22.

The super-degraded Moorman photo (for years controversial) is supposed to "back up" Arnold's story. The Moorman print is then subjected to a connect-the-assassins-in-the-grain-and-shadows game...and, guess what? -- suddenly, out of seemingly nowhere, not ONE, but THREE different men appear in the photograph!! There's Arnold, plus a construction worker (in metal hat), and a police officer ("Badge Man", who's firing a shot from the knoll).

That Moorman picture, taken by certainly NOT a great camerawoman and taken with an ultra-cheap Polaroid Land Camera AND not focusing in on anything in the background BEHIND the President's car -- is just flat-out NOT a clear enough picture to see all these things that the "CTers" say is in the photo.

I defy ANYBODY, using some common sense and their own eyes, to look at that photo and see ANYTHING resembling ANYTHING (let alone three separate people with specific articles on their person).

Obviously, "expert" photo analysts have tackled this photo, and of course disagree with the LN (Lone Nut) crowd regarding it. They say their blow-ups (which, in my line of thinking, would certainly have to decrease the already-poor resolution of this fuzzy image many times over) "prove" a conspiracy. Hogwash. It's a paint-by-numbers game, IMO.

TMWKK is certainly not my favorite assassination DVD or video. My fave would be "Four Days In November", which IS the "real" truth, in my estimation. Some excellent re-creations on that video, too....leading up to 11/22.

The new ABC Peter Jennings program is now my second favorite Kennedy-related program. Just fabulously done IMO.

isamu -- I'd heartily recommend you take the time to cross over to my "side" :) for a few hours, and take time to read the fascinatingly-detailed, nearly minute-by-minute accounts of Lee Oswald and Jack Ruby during the weekend of November 22-24, 1963 .... located in this book.

I know, you probably don't "trust" the Warren Report whatsoever. But -- to think that everything within that 888-page Report has been "manufactured" somehow is to believe that many members of our own (U.S.) Government are truly capable of murdering their own President in order to feed the needs of their own (as yet unproven, unspecified) agenda(s). I, for one, am not at all ready to make that leap of faith in this case.

I really think if some of the conspiracy believers would read up on just those chapters in the Report on Ruby's & Oswald's movements, then you might just be surprised, finding yourself saying .... "Gee, that makes sense."

An example --- Why did Ruby take his dog with him to shoot Oswald (the dog was found inside Ruby's parked car after he killed Oswald), if he were there on the pre-arranged behalf of evil conspirators?? A dog we know he cherished very much. Seems very odd he would do this. I realize this by no means "proves" he killed Oswald "on an impulse" (which I believe he did), but it's certainly part of the overall "big picture" of said event.

And -- How could even the best clock-watching plotters plan Oswald's murder so precise ... meaning that if Ruby had arrived in the Police basement just seconds later than he did, he would have missed his chance to get his man?? Does even the Mob allow such tight timetables??

Plus -- Consider the fact that Ruby had plenty of OTHER (earlier) opportunities to knock off his prey (LHO)....such as at the press conference the night of the murder.

Also -- Think of this too: IF Ruby were really a "hit man" for the Mob (or whoever supposedly orchestrated the assassination, up to and including Mickey Mouse, Lassie, and Rin-Tin-Tin :)), WHY didn't they simply have Ruby kill Oswald coming right out of the Texas School Book Depository Building minutes after the assassination?! For, if the reason for killing Oswald was solely to "silence" him, wouldn't it make the MOST sense to do it RIGHT AWAY, before he had 48 hours to blab something to the cops?! If you believe SOME theories, then Ruby WAS indeed in Dealey Plaza the day of the assassination. Why, then, didn't he "rub out" his man right away? Instead of doing it two days later on Live TV in front of millions & millions of witnesses?!

And -- IF Oswald had been "planted" in the Depository Building (as many, many "CTers" believe)....then we must necessarily believe that the several people that aided Lee in obtaining the job must therefore also be "involved" somehow in the plot. Being: Neighbors Ruth Paine, Linnie Randle, Michael Paine, and Buell Frazier. ALL of whom had absolutely no reason whatever to be willing to risk their OWN lives by being part of such a plan.

There's also the tiny little matter of Oswald being hired at the TSBD on October 16, some four weeks before anyone even knew that the motorcade would go past the building...or whether there would even BE any motorcade at all.

There's also the matter of those who believe the motorcade route was changed at the last minute, allowing the car to pass directly in front of Oswald's workplace. Well -- the only "teeny" problem with that is --- that John Connally, who was also in the car and severely wounded, was the person who arranged the motorcade, and he who decided that there should even BE a motorcade in the first place. Doesn't add up, does it? (Unless you want to believe the preposterous notion that Connally would deliberately drive himself right into the "killing zone", knowing full well that bullets were about to fly all around him. Not likely.)

Then there's those supposedly "faked" "Backyard Photographs" of Oswald. This subject, to me, is probably THE most ludicrous "conspiracy theory" of them all!

All conspiracy advocates here --- Just ask yourself this one question --- Even IF there WAS a conspiracy to kill JFK, WHY would the plotters even feel any need to fake these photos? .... We already KNOW the rifle belongs to Oswald (and can be easily traced back to him via other evidence in the case), so the photos are totally unnecessary and redundant in his implication in the crime! They fail to show him IN THE WINDOW, so why risk "faking" any pictures at all, when there's no real need for it, even if you ARE "setting him up". It's a needless, potentially-harmful "loose end", IMO.

Let alone fake THREE different pictures utilizing the same head!! :lol: Totally unnecessary and ridiculous, even from a CTer's POV.

Plus, there's also the little matter of the HSCA having PROVEN that the photos were taken by the Oswald's own Imperial Reflex camera. AND the fact that Marina Oswald ADMITS, herself, to having taken them just after Lee got his "arsenal" in the mail.

AND the fact that Oswald, himself, showed one of these pictures to Michael Paine (husband of Ruth, who was living with Marina at the time).

Now, are we to REALLY buy the bill of goods for sale by the "CT" gang...which has to entail the "plotters" stealing not only Oswald's camera, but also his Mannlicher-Carcano rifle, and returning them from whence they came without anyone knowing they'd been pilfered (or do some conspiracists think that Oswald simply handed over his weapon(s) and camera to the plotters of his own accord, in order to be framed more conveniently? :lol: )

Now the plotters must produce an Oswald "double" to stand in for Lee (granted, this part wouldn't be THAT impossible to achieve...but they DO have to make sure they get someone of Oswald's exact height, weight, and general physical characteristics (lacking any obvious non-Oswald marks, i.e. tattoos, that sort of deal)......now they have to steal into Oswald's backyard on Neely Street in Dallas at high noon one day, carrying the stolen rifle, camera, (and possibly even Oswald's revolver too -- although I suppose most resemble one another).....then they have to snap off the 3 pictures (when, of course, simply doing just ONE would easily suffice!)......then take the stolen articles back to their original owners (undetected by anybody).....then the plotters must go back to the BatCave to start "faking" the photos....which, of course, means they must also have a picture of Oswald's face to "super-impose" over the "fake" body double. ..... Now the hard photographic "fakery" begins in earnest, with 1963 technology remember! ...... There's the cutting & pasting & arranging the head to the body just right, making sure everything looks "not faked". ..... Now--after all the "fakery" is complete by the crack "Assassination Dream Team" of expert photo forgers.....we now have to "plant" the pictures within the Oswald residence somewhere, so that they can be found by the authorities at the proper time in November. ..... Any takers on this absurdity?? ...... To the Bat Poles...we've got innocent people to frame in needless fashion, Robin!! :) ;)

The whole idea of such a wide-sweeping, complicated conspiracy that many people buy into (featuring such "logical" loose ends like those photos, multiple witnesses in Dealey Plaza to deal with to possibly "blow" the plan out of the water, and the impossible-to-conceal "eradication" of God knows how many wounds (and bullets and bullet fragments) in TWO different victims and in the limousine in order for the "plot" to implicate JUST Oswald in the TSBD) is just so plain silly from a "common sense" point of view as to be out-&-out laughable.

The Men Who Killed Kennedy is utter trash and their "evidence" is based on hearsay and interviews with witnesses that waited 20 years to come forward. Besides, much of their key "evidence" has been proven to be either incorrect or inaccurate. The History Channel should be ashamed to even show this series.

Brett

Yeah. and I should take your word for it:rolleyes:

You know what they say about opinions...

It's not really an opinion.

Well, that's a compelling argument if I've seen one.

Facts be buggered, boys...he used the rolleyes! Retreat, retreat!

Bump to inform people that the Discovery Channel is repeating two JFK shows from 5pm-7pm CST today. The second was first aired during the week of the 40th anniversary of the assassination and is supposed to be quite good. I missed both the first time around and I'm going to catch them now.

MOVIELIB TURN TO LARRY KING NOOOOOWWWWW!!!!!

Doctors swear that JFK.....

Only saw this post now. Larry King is repeated at 11:00pm CST so I'm TiVoing it to see what you're fussing about. I may not be able to watch it tonight though and I'm going out of town tomorrow for three days. I'll get back to this though.

OK, I saw the program. Are you of the opinion that what the doctors said supports a shot from the front because I don't see that at all. One of the doctors clearly said he saw a quarter size wound in the back of the head that he said was an entrance wound.

Now what can be confusing is that the shot blew out the right side of the skull (the force from the shot following the path of least resistance to do the major part of its damage). Again, I refer you to this post of mine:

http://www.dvdtalk.com/forum/showthr...ys#post4283729

Dr. Grossman (one of the guests on the show tonight) is quoted: "My conclusion was that he had been shot in the back of the head, and the bullet blasted out the right posterior parietal area."

Again, also see the links in that post.

I think the biggest problem with Larry King (and one reason why I don't like him) is that he asks a good question and gets an answer that requires further clarification and probing. But instead of following up he immediately goes off into an entirely different direction leaving the first issue ambiguous, vague and/or confusing.

We are rewarded for our patience as the ABC Peter Jennings show is up for preorder and will be released on April 6. Great price here:

http://www.digitaleyes.net/Details.c...&affiliate=DPS

Movielib. I orderd it the moment after the show aired and been waiting ever since. Last week, they charged my credit card saying it was backordered but will ship as soon as they get it in....WTF?

Why don't you see if you can cancel it from ABC and order it from Digital Eyes (see my above link) for $11.98? I know I can wait a couple more months for that price.

Also, I just found these two excellent programs that the Discovery Channel aired awhile back:

http://shopping.discovery.com/stores...&currentPage=1

http://shopping.discovery.com/stores...&currentPage=2

A bit pricey but I ordered them anyway as I don't expect them to be distributed through other stores. I did get $5 off by using the code "EMAIL03".

I really wish CourtTV would sell a DVD of their program but that hasn't been offered yet. I emailed them twice asking if and when they will do so and never got a reply.

Thanks, movielib, for the heads-up and the links. :)

You might be interested, movielib, in knowing you can save even more greenbacks by purchasing the ABC Peter Jennings program HERE. (That $13.98 Canadian $ price equates to $10.45 USD -- as of 5:21 AM EST, 02/09/2004 AD. :D)

You can also get Free Shipping from that site as well. Not bad.

I was *very* surprised to see that ABC Special being offered up for retail sale at regular e-tailers. That's one of the reasons I recorded it myself on 11/20 onto DVD-R. Never thought we'd see that type of network programming released by an independent outfit ("Koch" Video in this instance).

Movielib -- We might have discussed this earlier (cannot recall), but did you ever get THIS JFK 2-DISC PROGRAM?

That WFAA-TV 2-discer is very good, with original WFAA footage shown. CD's pretty good as well.

Still awaiting the arrival of THIS ONE onto DVD.

David - Yes, I knew about DVDSoon's lower price and I often order from them. In this instance though I already had an order I was making with Digital Eyes in which other titles were cheaper than at DVD Soon and with a $10 off $100 coupon it made sense for me. I also got free shipping from Digital Eyes (they have free shipping for orders over $20). Also, I am actually one of the few who likes DVD Soon (it gets trashed around these parts a lot but I've had great luck with them) so I thought I'd post the Digital Eyes link and make it more appealing to our membership.

Thanks for the heads up on the WFAA DVD/CD. I may get it. The link to the order page worked for me:

http://shop.mydownloadportal.com/gre....asp?prid=2096

I am stll eagerly awaiting Dale Myers' DVD also. But I'm beginning to wonder if we'll ever see it.

OK, movielib....thanks. :)

If you hear of any new JFK-related DVDs coming out, post 'em here, OK? I'll do the same. I keep checking for "Four Days In November" (MGM). But not as yet announced.

Another goodie (with a CD attached)....

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/14...1.LZZZZZZZ.jpg