Everyone?

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl...geon21-ON.html
But I suppose Dr. Grossman must be lying.

This is very interesting also:

http://www.zimmermanjfk.com/frontmenu_000010.htm

http://www.zimmermanjfk.com/frontmenu_000018.htm

movielib: I just watched the Court TV show, and was much more pleased with how deep it went into the forensic side. ABCs animation was snazzier though. ;) Is there a place I can download a high res version of the Zapruder film that I can watch frame by frame?

Brian

Okay, this has to be said.

I can't believe any of you people seriously believe this man was capable of carrying out, let alone masterminding, the greatest crime of the twentieth century.

http://www.wvah.com/programs/drew/diedrichbader.jpg

At the very least, the man below had to have been involved:

http://www.wchstv.com/abc/whoselineisit/ryanstiles.jpg

And this man was seen on the grassy knoll:

http://www.self-gov.org/gif/drew.gif

I decided to buy:

http://www.deepdiscountdvd.com/redir...fier=MPD007282

I had thought about getting this DVD when it was released in 1998 but I didn't and then I forgot about it. As it's probably the best copy available, I just ordered it.

Much more info on it plus customer reviews here:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...507148-7222235

Then why did you say the head-wound bullet went on to strike Connally (which, of course, never happened)?

Don't understand the "point" you're offering up on this.

Did you mean to say back here, instead of head?

Because if you meant "back", then exiting the throat and then causing all of Connally's wounds.....then there's certainly NO reason for any "disbelief" here. THAT'S the way it occurred. Almost certainly so.

The SBT is backed up even MORE when you think about the fact that CE399 (the "Single Bullet") was "tumbling" when it entered John Connally's back, a fact that makes it almost a certainty that this bullet struck something else (namely JFK) before entering Connally. Connally's back scar verifies the bullet entered "sideways".

This sideways entry also can account a great deal for WHY the bullet was not more deformed that it was when recovered off the Parkland stretcher. For, the bullet's nose probably never even struck any part of Connally "head on", since it was tumbling.

If the SBT is NOT correct, then CTers must now reconcile WHERE the additional bullet(s) went that struck either the President or Governor Connally. No other non-Oswald missiles (or fragments) were recovered anywhere.

And I don't buy for a milli-second that these grand conspirators were actually able to physically collect all non-Oswald bullets and "repair" all the non-Oswald body wounds to TWO men within just hours (or minutes!) of the event. THAT'S the most ludicrous theory of all, to believe that massive a cover-up could possibly have taken place.

Obviously, I don't think that everyone will ever come to the same conclusion. However, after seeing this ABC special, in addition to other similar specials in the past, and not having seen Stone's JFK, my own conclusion is that LHO did all of the shooting. I also think that he did it himself, without help or input from others.

Thousands swarm Dealey Plaza on 40th Anniversary.........

http://www.dallasnews.com/img/11-03/1123met_dealey.jpg

It looks like the animation featured on the ABC Special will be available on DVD sometime soon: http://www.jfkfiles.com/index.htm

Brian

:up: I will definitely get this.

If you read the material on this website, it certainly appears that Dale Myers has done some of the very best work ever on the assassination. It is so thorough and meticulous, I don't know how hypotheses such as a grassy knoll shot, as just one example, can be maintained:

http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/concl4.htm

rotfl

Whats unreal with the JFK assasination is that not one of the Dealey Plaza witnesses saw and described the shooting EXACTLY as the Warren Commision reported. In fact...the original presentation of the shots were Shot#1 hit JFK in the back of the neck and exited out with fragrments hitting the chrome along the windshield and also cracking the windshield as well. Shot #2 striking Connelly casusing the wounds to his right chest, breaking his right wrist then fragments lodging in his left thigh.
Shot #3 hitting JFK in the head on Zapruder Frame 313 killing him.

It took the fact that bystander James Tague was hit by a shot that hit the curb and struck him on the cheek that the Warren Commission had to change their original report to the so-called Magic Bullet Theory.

I do think the WC was right that 3 shots were fired from the 6th floor but Oswald (as negative parrafin tests on his cheeks later proved) was not the one who fired at the motorcade.

It sure was smart, then, for the evil "plotters" to have "planted" a "lookalike" in the sixth-floor window, wasn't it??

For if it was not Oswald in the window, doesn't it strike you as a wee bit odd that the initial description of the assassin in the window matched Oswald almost perfectly??

Or was this "lookalike" Oswald planned by the plotters all along? Of course, they had to not only get a near-perfect lookalike to plant in the window, but, on top of this, it also had to be a man with pretty good rifle skills.

(OK...who stole the "rolleyes" icon? I need several more
here!! ------------>)

I don't know how any eyewitness could describe the event exactly as it occurred as nobody could be watching and listening in all directions at once, not even to begin to mention how anyone could tell exactly what happened with all the shots in tiny fractions of a second and not to mention that it's extremely difficult to tell where sounds come from in a place like Dealey Plaza and eyewitness testimony is very often unreliable. That is why it is overwhelmingly fortuitous that we have the Zapruder film which cannot lie or be mistaken (dismissing the real crackpot claims that it has been tampered with). Granted, it requires analysis and interpretation and is not the clearest film ever produced. But as forensic techniques and computer and other technology has improved, it has provided an ever more accurate picture of what happened. And this has provided more and more evidence that there were three shots, all originating from that 6th floor window of the Texas School Book Depository.

Please see:

http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/content.htm
On the unreliability (uselessness, even) of paraffin tests:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/factoid2.htm

And I guess you think Oswald really was bringing curtain rods to work. And after the shooting, he fled because...?!?!

...Curtain rods, which, of course, were 1.) Not needed at his rooming house and 2.) Were never recovered anywhere in the TSBD.

(Or did LHO eat the rods for lunch on 11/22? That would explain why they just disappeared into thin air. Curtain-hanging devices are, I'm told, low in fat and high in folic acid. Need lots of salt however.)

I assume you are using a bit of sarcasm here. You are, right?

Brett

Not only did he flee, but when confronted by a police officer, he shot that officer dead. Pretty odd behavior for an innocent man.

Perhaps the curtain rods were smuggled from Cuba?

I just today saw a picture I'd heretofore never seen before (a still shot from the short film taken by JFK aide Dave Powers from the SS follow-up car
on 11/22/63). .......

http://www.jfklancer.com/photos/kennedy/Powers.gif

.....Note how the positioning of JFK and Gov. Connally almost identically matches the positions utilized by Dale Myers to create his fascinatingly-detailed 3-D animation (which, of course, fully supports the Single-Bullet Conclusion).

Kennedy, just as stated in the Myers animation, is indeed sitting slightly higher than Mr. Connally; with Connally located (in this pic taken just minutes before the shots were fired) seated just slightly "inboard" of Kennedy's position.

I've always subscribed to my own theory regarding the EXACT seating positions of the two men in the limousine at the time of the assassination. And that would be: That it's just NOT possible to say exactly to the square inch where in the car the two men are precisely located, based solely on grainy and blurry films/photos.

BUT....Pictures from a unique "directly from behind" angle, such as this Powers' photo above, certainly make the job of "reconstructing" the event with the best possible accuracy much, much easier.

(This Dave Powers' film--which, for many years, was never seen and not released by Powers--was evidently released for mass consumption in November 1996. I really don't recall if I saw the film making the rounds on the nightly newscasts or not. I might have, and just don't recall seeing it. But having a frame isolated (such as above), which fully supports the Warren Report's findings, is an extremely intriguing side effect to Powers' film, IMO.)

I am watching "J F K" again for the trillionth time. Can't get enough of this film! Anyways....

Davidp and Movielimb...

If you are of the opinion that a conspiracy did not happen, then how do you explain the events and circumstances described by the annonynmous source who had a confidential discussion with Jim Garrion in Washington DC(played excellently by the talented Donald Sutherland as "Mr. X")???

Operation Mongoose? Kudayta? Wanting to get rid of him because he did not want to go to war with Vietnam? All these are perfect reasons to want to get rid of JFK! How do we know what the governments intentions really were during that critical time period?

First of all, I love the film, JFK. I think it is Oliver Stone's best movie and it is a true masterpiece - as cinema.

But really, it is a movie and as history it is garbage. There is simply no reason to trust anything in the film:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/jfkmovie.htm

http://www.jfk-online.com/jfk100menu.html

Specifically regarding "X" (who is based on Col. L. Fletcher Prouty):

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/prouty.htm

http://www.jfk-online.com/jfk100whox.html

(BTW, I agree with you completely on the talents of Donald Sutherland, a great underrated actor.)

OK point taken. Thanks for those links I'll check 'em out:)

Movielib beat me to the punch. I echo movie's comments.

And all of what you just said is pure out-&-out speculation as well.

When you stop and think about it ... EVERY President no doubt has "issues" that rub people the wrong way, and have certain radicals screaming "Kill the bastard!"

Does anyone have any doubt whatsoever that people would be crying "CONSPIRACY" all over the place no matter what President might be killed??

It's the nature of the beast...to think "conspiracy" whenever something like this occurs. But "suspecting" it certainly does not make it so, even if 70%-80% of America still to this day believe in the conspiracy fantasies in the JFK case.

Dave...it really really REALLY behooves you to check out the extras dvd that accompanies the new special edition JFK double disc set! I did not get a chance to watch it until today. David...on the extras dvd there is a documentary called "BEYOND JFK: The Question of Conspiracy". In this documentary, they interviewed this one blond chick who swore by Jesus that she actually SAW a man shooting a rifle from the grassy nole area. She was NOT delusional! This was a women with vivid accounts of what happened that day and recalls exactly what she saw and heard. This is just ONE of the witnesses that saw and heard gun fire from locations other than the book depository building. There is another witness that used to work for Jack Ruby at his strip club and swears she remembers Jack introducing her to Lee Harvey Oswald! So obviously they knew each other. How on earth do you respond to these claims by REAL witnesses who certainly had no motive to fabricate or make up these statements?

And how do you explain the shot straight to the head that we see where the skull expodes?

This shows why the head shot could not have come from the grassy knoll:

http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/concl4.htm

The forensic evidence of the head shot overwhelmingly supports the bullet from behind. See my post from this very thread:

http://www.dvdtalk.com/forum/showthr...ys#post4283729

You should study the links davidvp and I have posted. You should see the CourtTV documentary that was first broadcast on November 20. The forensic evidence is completely overwhelming. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable (anyway, the eyewitness testimony probably, if added all up, still gives more support to the lone nut theory than to the conspiracy theory). And it is extremely difficult to tell where a sound comes from in a place like Dealey Plaza. What does it mean that the woman in this documentary says she saw someone shooting from the grassy knoll if the forensic evidence conclusively says it is impossible? She may not be delusional but she is assuredly mistaken.

Is it true that Ruby and Oswald knew each other? Is that woman right? I doubt it because, as far as I know, there is next to no (or no) evidence they ever met. Are a lot of people going to say a lot of things? Is a documentary made with the express purpose of establishing a conspiracy going to trot out everyone they can who says what they want to hear and put them in the film? Does a bear shit in the woods?

To me, the forensic evidence, which has become ever stronger and clearer over the years as technology improves, conclusively shows that three shots were fired. The first missed. The second is the so-called magic bullet which indeed hit both Kennedy and Connally and the third was the shot to Kennedy's head. All three bullets were fired from behind from the vicinity of that sixth floor window of the TSBD. Lee Harvey Oswald is the only possible suspect. If Oswald was conspiring with anyone else, there is no credible evidence for it.

Once more, I concur with movielib 100% (re. his last post).

To believe in Oliver Stone's movie "plot" (with a SIX-SHOT assassination), we absolutely MUST believe that ALL "non-Oswald" bullets & fragments were somehow eradicated from the TWO bodies (JFK/JBC) and the limo within a very short time frame.

OR: we must believe that every single person who came into contact with JFK and Gov. Connally right after being shot was in on the massive plot/cover-up, and decided to "hush up" all evidence of more than three shots and any frontal hits. Ludicrous on its face of course, since we're talking literally dozens of doctors/nurses/orderlies/etc., all of whom have absolutely NO REASON WHATSOEVER to want to risk their own lives in aiding in covering up the killing of their own President.

Also keep in mind, if you buy into Oliver Stone's "Six-Shot" scenario.....that his # of shots is double (DOUBLE!!) the number that approx. 80% of the witnesses heard in Dealey Plaza that day. What are the odds that 8 out of every 10 earwitnesses would have completely missed out on hearing HALF THE SHOTS??!! Just plain silly.

You don't have to beg. :) I have the video. Have had it for years (the VHS version, which is the same as the 90-min. docu. on the new 2-Disc DVD).

The "blond[e] chick" you refer to is Jean Hill (the "Lady In Red" [raincoat] on 11/22/1963 in Dealey Plaza). Before you take Miss Hill's word as gospel, you'd better delve a bit deeper into her testimony, which is about as consistent as the weather in Indiana -- meaning: it changes on nearly an hour-by-hour basis (so it seems).

More on her can be found here.

On 11/22 she claims to have seen NO ONE firing any weapon.

This, to me, is just another case of someone crawling out of the post-assassination woodwork to spin a tale decades later, that (of course) at that late hour cannot be proven one way or the other, what with all the principals being graveyard dead.

AT THE TIME (in 1963), there was absolutely NO credible evidence to suggest that Ruby knew Oswald, or that they had ever even met in passing. I trust the information garnered BACK THEN much more than that of any stripper(s) who suddenly remembers (with a slap to the forehead no doubt): "Gee, I just remembered....30 years ago Jack Ruby told me.....!!" Yeah, right. :rolleyes:

I'm not quite understanding what you mean here. It's not very clear. "Shot straight to the head"??

If you refer to the "backward head snap", indicating (falsely) that he MUST have been shot from the front.....I suggest you look closely at the Zapruder Film again, pausing at Frame 312 (the clearest frame in the whole film, BTW, which I've always found to be kind of eerie). Then step to frame 313 (the impact frame). You'll notice that JFK's head rocks forward a few inches before the "recoil" backward, indicating a force from behind when initially striking the skull.

Then there's also (while pausing the film on Frame 313) the "line of debris/dura matter from skull" being expelled forward of the President's head (that is: exiting out the front), indicating the entry wound was in the rear, not the front.

And then there's the further evidence on the Zapruder Film that the rear portion of JFK's head is not blown away or damaged in any fashion in subsequent post-313 frames on the film. The front right portion of the head appears on the film to be missing...not the rear portion. This fact has always perplexed me, when many Parkland doctors stated that JFK had a rear head wound. Because the film does NOT support those "gaping rear head wound" allegations.

BTW....Several of those very same doctors (in 1988) revised their statements re. rear head damage when viewing the autopsy photos at The National Archives in Washington for the "NOVA" PBS-TV documentary....stating that the photos they saw in 1988 were "entirely consistent with what I (they) saw in 1963 in Dallas".

davidvp: you did a much better job than I on answering the latest "but what about" post. As I've always said, you know this stuff better than I do. :up: