what??!?!


wheres is the 24 where ? that was probably one of the best moments of tv i've seen in the last few years.

On the cutting room floor with all the other predictably forced attempts to "shock" the audience. As I rewatched the episodes, I found that forced intensity is a poor substitute for real drama. While I considered that particular episode for not cliff-hanging its predictable conclusion, I eventually dropped it for this reason: . Episodes that focused on one of the dumbest storylines in television history didn't have much of a chance making the list.

<BLOCKQUOTE> • Quoth Venusian •<HR SIZE=1>that was probably one of the best moments of tv i've seen in the last few years. <HR SIZE=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

Remember, the list is for episodes, not moments, and unfortunately <i>24</i> had a nasty pattern of balancing some of its best moments in episodes that had some of the whole televisions year's worst.

das

<BLOCKQUOTE> • Quoth Groucho •<HR SIZE=1>Bah. The worst episode of "The Shield" is still better than the best episode of "Boomtown". <HR SIZE=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

Never understood why you dislike <i>Boomtown</i> so much.

das

<BLOCKQUOTE> • Quoth nny •<HR SIZE=1>Hehe, you fooled me. Good to see "The David McNorris Show" so high and of course Conversations only missed the top 10 by one spot.<HR SIZE=1></BLOCKQUOTE>
Had to have a little fun. :)

<BLOCKQUOTE> • Quoth nny •<HR SIZE=1>"Perfect Circles" was great, but it also has enough flaws that there were other better episodes of SFU this season. Maybe if they would ever deal with some of the things that came up in this episode I would absolutely love this episode.<HR SIZE=1></BLOCKQUOTE>
What didn't they deal with? It seemed like the entire season dealt fairly specifically with the questions posed in this episode.

<BLOCKQUOTE> • Quoth nny •<HR SIZE=1>The only major omission I can think of is Firefly-"Out of Gas". That was definitely my favorite episode. Also, I think my second favorite Firefly episode was "Serenity", but I haven't seen the unaired ones yet.<HR SIZE=1></BLOCKQUOTE>
I also really liked 'Jaynestown' and the unaired 'The Message', but in light of the competition, I could only find room for 'Ariel'.

<BLOCKQUOTE> • Quoth nny •<HR SIZE=1>I'm halfway through reading the comments on each episode and I can't decide if I should read some of them since I don't like spoilers.<HR SIZE=1></BLOCKQUOTE>
My comments are more spoilerific this year, so I'd probably avoid them for any show you're planning to watch.

das

well come on, you know to really watch 24 you have to completely ignore the kim storyline.

If it was just a bad show, I probably wouldn't post about it. But I felt really let down...after a strong pilot and a few good episodes, it abandoned the one thing that made it different: the multiple storylines. It turned into another cop show, only with good actors delivering the mediocre dialogue.

My other problem with the show is that the characters are too clean. There were several episodes that hinted to a dark side of the characters, but at the end...WHEW...everything's all okay.

I will retract my previous statement, however. The pilot of Boomtown is better than "Co-Pilot" on The Shield.

I did watch Boomtown from beginning to end, which is more than I do for most shows (such as Robbery Homicide Division...ugh). I was going to abandon it next season but the casting changes I've read about seem to be a step in the right direction. So I might give it a second chance if I'm in a forgiving mood this fall.

<BLOCKQUOTE> • Quoth Venusian •<HR SIZE=1>well come on, you know to really watch 24 you have to completely ignore the kim storyline. <HR SIZE=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's how I get by when watching it during the season, but come award time, I cannot ignore the actual content of the episode. Ironically, the one episode that made the list made it in large part because of Kim.

das

<BLOCKQUOTE> • Quoth Groucho •<HR SIZE=1>If it was just a bad show, I probably wouldn't post about it. But I felt really let down...after a strong pilot and a few good episodes, it abandoned the one thing that made it different: the multiple storylines. It turned into another cop show, only with good actors delivering the mediocre dialogue.<HR SIZE=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

This was my one complaint with the show as well, and I believe I addressed it in my descriptions. However, each of the 4 episodes I selected made pretty good use of the multiple storyline concept.

While episodically, <i>Boomtown</i> leant itself better to this list, I do agree with you that <i>The Shield</i> is a superior show.

das

Glad to see Everwood prominently in the list, one of the best damn shows on TV period :)

Can't wait for season 2 :D

<BLOCKQUOTE> • Quoth dek •<HR SIZE=1>Everwood ... one of the best damn shows on TV period :)<HR SIZE=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

Probably the biggest surprise of the year.

das

Quote:

---

Originally posted by das Monkey
Probably the biggest surprise of the year.

---

I thought that it was Kim surviving the cougar trap..?

<BLOCKQUOTE> • Quoth Rogue588 •<HR SIZE=1>I thought that it was Kim surviving the cougar trap..? <HR SIZE=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

Watch it with the SPOILERS!!!! :D

I'm thinking next season Kim can fall down a well or get trapped in an abandoned mine or something. Or perhaps she could get accidentally locked in a museum after closing.

das

I finished reading all the comments last night, but was too tired to post. That was some excellent writing. This list really should be featured in a major magazine or at least a major tv website.

I can't believe I've only seen 30 of the top 50. If anybody notices that one of these episodes is going to be rerun, it might be a good idea to post here about it. After reading das's comments I'm interested in trying Without A Trace and I still want to like Everwood. I've actually seen parts of some of the Everwood episodes mentioned, but I don't know if I've seen a complete episode since the premiere. Maybe I should just force myself to watch it and I'll grow to like it.

Probably the most shocking thing about this list are the shows that took up the most spots. SFU totally deserves it's 5 spots and I can't comment on West Wing's 4 spots since I didn't watch it at all, but I feel like I've seen enough Everwood to be completely shocked by it's 5 spots. I know this might stray into more of a best series than a best episode argument, but does Everwood really deserve the same number of spots as SFU. As much as I like Boomtown, does it really deserve more spots than Angel, The Shield, and The Wire. I completely agree with das's statement, "episodically, Boomtown leant itself better to this list", but I also agree with das's statement, "I favored shows that maintained a level of quality for the whole season. A great episode that stood out among a bunch of really good episodes received higher marks than a great episode that stood out among lousy ones." I wouldn't say the other episodes in Boomtown's season were lousy, but it still seems a little wrong. I also understand that it's hard to pick out specific episodes of Angel, The Shield, and The Wire since they all basically tell one long story. Ironically enough, they do a better job of telling one long consistent story than the overrated 24, whose basic gimmick is to tell one long story.

I realize that's probably just nitpicking, but I love discussing these lists and this is just what's on my mind at the moment.

That's the one problem I have with Boomtown. Granted, I still think it's a really good show but the Pilot set such high expectations that the rest of the episodes usually didn't live up to. "The David McNorris Show" and "Fearless" I think came the closest though these two were more character studies than anything else. I'm hoping with a slight change in cast, next season will get back to the basics.

<BLOCKQUOTE> • Quoth nny •<HR SIZE=1>I finished reading all the comments last night, but was too tired to post. That was some excellent writing. This list really should be featured in a major magazine or at least a major tv website.<HR SIZE=1></BLOCKQUOTE>
Kind words. Thanks. I put a lot of time into it, so I'm glad someone enjoyed it. It would be nice to get it to a larger audience so some of these shows could get the recognition they deserve, but I wouldn't have a clue how to approach that.

<BLOCKQUOTE> • Quoth nny •<HR SIZE=1>I still want to like Everwood. I've actually seen parts of some of the Everwood episodes mentioned, but I don't know if I've seen a complete episode since the premiere. Maybe I should just force myself to watch it and I'll grow to like it.<HR SIZE=1></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think <i>Everwood</i> is a show you either fall in love with or you don't. It's not the kind of series that will shock you or provide some cool gimmick to latch onto ... it's just excellent storytelling. What's impressed me the most about it is how carefully constructed these characters are and how seemingly throwaway events from early episodes have significance in later episodes. Everyone is important, and it blurs the line between a teen drama and an adult drama.

I've also been impressed with how well they present isolated thematic episodes within the overall arc of the show. There are so many plot threads weaving in and out of one another, and still they find a way to merge commonalities among these stories into thematic constructs. That being said, I'm pretty aware of the fact that this show isn't going to be for everyone. I would hope it reaches a wide range of viewers, but I can see how it wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea. It does fill a bit of a void in television right now, and I think it does it incredibly well, so for those of us who are longing for the truly great family drama that we can watch with our parents or our kids or both, <i>Everwood</i> is a refreshing new show.

<BLOCKQUOTE> • Quoth nny •<HR SIZE=1>Probably the most shocking thing about this list are the shows that took up the most spots. SFU totally deserves it's 5 spots and I can't comment on West Wing's 4 spots since I didn't watch it at all, but I feel like I've seen enough Everwood to be completely shocked by it's 5 spots. I know this might stray into more of a best series than a best episode argument, but does Everwood really deserve the same number of spots as SFU. As much as I like Boomtown, does it really deserve more spots than Angel, The Shield, and The Wire. I completely agree with das's statement, "episodically, Boomtown leant itself better to this list", but I also agree with das's statement, "I favored shows that maintained a level of quality for the whole season. A great episode that stood out among a bunch of really good episodes received higher marks than a great episode that stood out among lousy ones." I wouldn't say the other episodes in Boomtown's season were lousy, but it still seems a little wrong. I also understand that it's hard to pick out specific episodes of Angel, The Shield, and The Wire since they all basically tell one long story. Ironically enough, they do a better job of telling one long consistent story than the overrated 24, whose basic gimmick is to tell one long story.<HR SIZE=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

It shocked me a bit too. I wouldn't get hung up on counts, though. I didn't sit down and say "OK, <i>Six Feet Under</i> and <i>Everwood</i> are the best, so they get 5. Next comes <i>The West Wing</i> and <i>Boomtown</i>, so they get 4." The episodes just fell that way. I think <i>The Wire</i> is the best show on all of television right now, and it only grabbed 2 spots (and didn't get in the Top 4). I tried to let the episodes speak for themselves, and shows that had better thematic episodic tones invariably performed better for this list. A list of the Best Series or even Best Seasons would likely be very different.

Also, while great episodes in great seasons received higher marks than great episodes in lousy seasons, great episodes are still great episodes. I'm not sure I'd even rank <i>Boomtown</i> as one of the Top 10 shows right now, but it did have 4 outstanding episodes, and so they all made it.

I have to say it was incredibly difficult to do this, and I'm not sure how much I look forward to trying again. Making cuts was painful, especially when I finally dropped <i>Farscape</i>'s 'John Quixote' and <i>Firefly</i>'s 'The Message' at the end. There were so many different ways to look at everything, and I knew some of my decisions were just going to piss people off, but I did the best I could.

I can say this, though. I watched every single episode on this list (plus another 50+ that got cut) within the last month -- many of them multiple times -- before making my decisions. I didn't want to be overly influenced by airdates or timing or false memories or forum discussions or anything like that ... just the episodes themselves. I don't know if that's the best approach to take, but it's the one I ended up choosing.

das

I love all the Everwood episodes mentioned. I love the show!

I also like the mention of The Shield finale at #8. The whole "Overcome" segment was one of the best endings...ever.

The Shield's finale of the first season would've been number one last year, in my book. :)

Great work das!

It was a pleasure reading your top 50, das. Hope getting them on here worked out to your satisfaction.

<BLOCKQUOTE> • Quoth Static Cling •<HR SIZE=1>It was a pleasure reading your top 50, das. Hope getting them on here worked out to your satisfaction. <HR SIZE=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks. I appreciate your help and suggestions on how to approach this: it seems to have worked fairly well.

If I'm ever stupid enough to repeat this insane exercise -- which upon reflection scares even me -- I'd welcome any feedback from anyone on how to do it next time (not the content of the list itself, but how to present it on the message board).

das

P.S. Good luck on the part-time hunt.

Get in line, buddy. I claimed Natalie Hurley as my tv girlfriend several years ago. ;)

<BLOCKQUOTE> • Quoth dstrauss •<HR SIZE=1>Get in line, buddy. I claimed Natalie Hurley as my tv girlfriend several years ago. ;) <HR SIZE=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

Late-comer. -rolleyes- ;) Clearly you never watched <i>Sliders</i>. She was one of the reasons I tuned into <i>SportsNight</i> in the first place. The other reason of course being ... shoe money tonight!!!!

das

works for me. i'll be having a JanaMarie Hupp/Julie Bowen sandwich, thank you very much...

:D

Great work Das Monkey, I'll have to give Everwood a Tivo try based on your high opinion.

Very nice compilation. I can only comment on the shows I watch.

Yeah - those last 3 eps of West Wing were fantastic. However, I did not care for the CJ going home episode.

As for your Law & Order analysis, I think the episode Futility guest starring Fred Savage was the best of the bunch this season. Fallacy would come in 2nd. I also have to give a shout out to the original L&O episode, Couples. That took us back to the old days, and I don't think it is a coincidence that Elizabeth Rohm only had about 10 lines in the whole episode.

Great choices on American Dreams, Sopranos, Without a Trace and Boomtown. I have to included the episode Insured by Smith & Wesson guest starring Joe Penny to my favorites list. Gary Barsabara was phenominal in that one. Monster's Brawl guest starring Neil Patrick Harris with the bumfights was great as well (just compare it to how Dick Wolf addressed it on Dragnet). I've made it no secret this year that I think Boomtown is the best drama on television right now.

I know a lot of people think CSI is too formulaic, but I thought the episode Lady Heather's Box was fantastic. It is really the first time we see a certain side of Grissom.

Finally, my best list would be incomplete without an acknowledgement of the Oz episode A Day in the Death. Fantastic stuff. Except for those last few West Wing episodes and Boomtown's The David McNorris Show, A Day in the Death was the best drama episode of the season.

First of all, speaking from within the industry, I will say that das is every bit as good (and in many cases better) as any television critic working today.

You should be paid for your labor of love.

Now... IMHO (and yes, all of these posts are opinions) your list is pretty spot on to today's television world with the exception of Everwood.

Again in MHO... Everwood is nothing more than straight melodrama with characters that I have seen on other shows for years. The storytelling is incredibly manipulative and overwrought, but hey, who loves everything on a critic's list? :)

As to the above quote... and das you know me, so you know I am in no way plugging my own work, but if you're looking for a family drama that parents and kids can watch together, the best on TV is Judging Amy. Again, it has nothing to do with me because, to be honest, I wouldn't watch the show if I didn't have to. But from a family drama standpoint, it is superior. The show has suffered from poor promotion - everything thinks it's an "old women's show." Nobody knows that this show has killed NYPD Blue (in the ratings) every week for 4 straight years.

JA does subtext as opposed to on-the-nose. This is why it is tough for some people to "get." It does drama, not melodrama. It does the minutia of life, not things that are bigger than life. The franchises (i.e. court cases, medical cases, etc) are second to the characters - something I will give Everwood credit for.

But I will concede Everwood has the better guest casting. Our regular actors are some of the best in the biz, but our guest casting is awful. And you all know that bad acting can kill even the best writing.

But I didn't mean to turn this into a promo post. I know you have probably never seen an episode of JA, like I have never seen an episode of Farscape. So no worries. ;)

Thanks again for all your effort, and should you ever want to do this fulltime, let me know. I would do whatever I could to help you... which would probably be almost nothing. :)

edited to add: in all fairness, I have only seen 5 episodes of Everwood. But I saw no hint of anything changing, imho.

I don't know about 4 years, but I would hardly say JA killed Blue this season. JA finished 30th and Blue finished 37th. Plus consider their lead-ins. Blue increases ABC's audience 38% from the lead-in while JA only increases CBS's 11%. Put the Guardian on ABC at 9, and I bet Blue beats JA.

Of course this upcoming season will probably see JA increase the gap since SVU and Blue will probably cannibalize each other.