Oh, don't even get me started on episodes of TNG like Masks and Genesis. There were so many of them that were just ignorant.

Yeah, some people can't see the light, you got that right.

That's probably more in line with what I was getting at - 700 bucks (or less) for 182 episodes with extras is more reasonable. 650 for 78 bare bones episodes is way too rich for my blood.

As it is, I'm kind of in that boat - the Doctor Who discs are coming out one story per disc (4 episodes or two hours of content) at more or less the same price point (20 to 30 bucks, depending on where you get them). However the episodes have had a really fantastic remastering job done to them, are loaded with extras and are about as good as you are going to see a 40 year old TV series. If they were episodes just thrown on a disc, I'd probably not be as eager as I am.

• Quoth Josh Z •<HR SIZE=1>Kerobus, you are so wrong on so many levels that it is really not worth anyone's time to even try refuting you. It's like arguing with someone who insists that the world is flat. Little things like facts aren't going to change his mind.<HR SIZE=1>

This was apparent about 3 days ago, but like an idiot, I continued on just in case. I actually posted a picture of a horse being led to water and not drinking, but I quickly deleted it not wanting to offend. The only thing that would scare me more than someone typing these things is if someone actually believed them. It's not even a question of quality analysis. I'm sure each of us has a different viewpoint on which shows are better than others and which we like or don't like; it's the stuff in between that boggles the mind.

This thread should definitely be archived under the title Logical Fallacies. From hasty generalizations to a poor straw man approach, slothful induction, causal fallacies galore, more statistical syllogisms than an Enron report, and enough changing the subject to confuse even the most disciplined mind, you could build an entire course of study around this thread alone.

The level of inaccuracy in the assertions is so staggering that your flat world analogy is perfect.

das

I like Star Trek a lot, but to say the writing is superior to Babylon 5's seems laughable to me. Babylon 5 was created by excellent writers (J. Michael Straczynski with Harlan Ellison as a consultant) and was designed with huge, sweeping story arcs that cross many seasons. It's complicated and subtle--you can't just jump in. Star Trek on the other hand, follows a more traditional episode format--it's not especially serialized (except DS9) so you can be a casual viewer and still get it.

Buffy is like B5 in that you have to see most of the episodes to understand what's going on, and in spite of its silly title, I do think it will stand the test of time. I'm 36 and enjoy it as much as my daughter and her friends do. We all think Charmed is boring. Right now, I'm taking a junior level film studies class that is devoting a week to Buffy the tv show. If the show were without merit, I doubt there would be many colleges paying attention to it.

Anyway, I'm not knocking any of the Star Treks or X-files, but for me at least, I think Buffy and B5 were written better than those more mainstream shows.

tasha

Wow, don't check on a topic for a week and look what happens....

I'll add my two cents. I've seen every episode of Trek, X-Files, B5, and Buffy. As has already been detailed, an appreciation for B5 and Buffy require viewing from the beginning. An episode here, an episode there may result in 'man, this sucks' even more than a lot of other shows. There's very little chance someone who has a closed mind to Buffy and B5 will ever see the show for what it really is, high quality television.

Since I was there for day 1 of Buffy, I didn't have this pre-conceived "cheerleader, teen-ager" notion. Having the mind-set of 'this can't possibly be any good' would certainly result in that no matter how good it is.

A friend of mine had the same notion. Between my constant badgering and the affordable price of the boxsets, he started watching Buffy from the beginning. He now loves it and couldn't wait for season 3.

As to X-Files, I always liked the show but thought the last two seasons (and especially the series finale) have detracted from the 'luster'. I currently care less if a new movie is ever made. The whole conspiracy issue started taking on a Twin Peaks thing toward the end: we started it, now we don't know how to end it .

Babylon 5 never had that problem: JMS knew how it would end before he even wrote the pilot.

For all the praise that buffy is getting i might have to go rent it. To be honest i didnt enjoy the movie that much - it was fine but nothng more -so i blew off the series as more of the same.

The movie sucks. Even the most die-hard Buffy fan will admit that. The TV series has next to nothing to do with the movie.

The reason Buffy became a TV series is because Joss Whedon didn't think the movie fulfilled his intentions for the concept.

No one else to defend the merits of Trek and XF over Buffy and B5? Jeez... Maybe I am wrong, but I seriously doubt it. Or maybe this is more proof that the world is coming to an end very soon. After all, Eminem is looked upon not only as music, but as good music, while stalwarts like U2 and Springsteen are considered crap these days...

Anyhow, I guess that I just can't buy a show with a twig of a girl flipping around with stakes taking on horribly made up demons and vampires and knocking down guys who look like Arnold Schwarzenegger. I also don't buy the I'm 32 and am supposed to be in high school and college look, the I'm a school counselor without any training in HR or college degree and the day before I worked at Burger King. Not to mention that the filming looks very amateur. At least you can give me that it LOOKS the same as charmed. Very TVish. Bad makeup, bad props. Speaking of endings, how is THIS show going to end? Is she gonna beat up the devil?

As for Babylon 5, someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this show cancelled? Wasn't the ending a hurried up version of what was intended? If so, then I don't see where you can say that the ending was so well thought out and good. No one was watching it, so we squeezed it out like toothpaste... Anyway, you need to go back and watch ST, as I just did with those great box sets, they were very much serialized.

Hokey. That's all.

So is someone gonna tell me that these two shows are BETTER than ST and XF? Just say it. Until you can say it with a straight face, my point is valid, that better high quality shows can earn more money. Isn't that simple enough??????? Go ahead, make a fool of yourself and say it.

Very well..........I think Buffy and B5 are better than X-Files. Do I think they're better than Trek? That depends on which show, which season. Both are miles better than Enterprise and Voyager. Both are better than Seasons 1 and 2 of Next Gen, Season 3 of Original. After that, I'm torn.

I love Trek to death, but really don't see how the make-up on Trek is better than B5 or Buffy. All of Trek has done more nose applications for alien-of-the-week than anything. At least B5 was more original in it's make-up ideas.

Your comment about a twig of a girl knocking down Arnold-types isn't valid: she is a Vampire Slayer (thus the name) and has special abilities.

Yes, B5 was cancelled, but picked up by TNT for it's planned final season.

U2 is considered crap? Now that I take exception to!

Nope - the show lasted the full 5 seasons. There was some doubt about season 5 that caused some of the story arc to get shuffled around a bit(and the loss of a character) but its all there.

Anyway - how did it last past season 2 if nobody was watching it? If nobody is watching, most shows barely last 1/2 a season.

Hmmm - guess you saw a diffrent Star Trek than the rest of us. The show *I* saw was mostly compartmentalzed - meaning there is no cause and effect to the episodes beyond the confines of that hour. For the most part characters are the same at the end of the show as they are at the begnning of the show.

Well - Trek was that way up to the point where B5 became a sucess. Then Paramount started to bring in a story arc to the show.

With a totally straight face: Star Trek: TNG (and beyond) cannot hold a candle to the storytellng prowess of JMS and B5.


Whoops forgot this from last go round:

So if B5 owes its existance to Trek because Trek came first then the only reason that Trek exists is because a little independent movie in the 70s called Star Wars made science fiction popular enough for the Motion Picture to get made.

And following that logic - the old school Trek owes existance to Doctor Who - a SF show that had been going on for 7 years by 1969.

• Quoth Josh Z •<HR SIZE=1>The movie sucks. Even the most die-hard Buffy fan will admit that. The TV series has next to nothing to do with the movie.

The reason Buffy became a TV series is because Joss Whedon didn't think the movie fulfilled his intentions for the concept. <HR SIZE=1>

Ditto. Give it a shot. It's not like B5 in concept, but it's a similar style. That is to say that Buffy is very character driven, has long arcs, and as a whole has something to say about good and evil and the nature of our humanity. If you like B5, you're very likely able to appreciate longer stories with dynamically written characters. Buffy is that type of show, and as already, it holds almost zero resemblence to the film on pretty much any level.

das

Exactly. No Who, no Trek.

Of course, the point of this thread is that the OS discs cost too much and should be revisited as box sets. As much as I love Buffy and understand how close-minded the criticism of that show has been in this thread I feel obligated to return to the original subject.

TOS is too big, too expensive and woefully short of extras. C'mon Paramount! Stop insulting the fans that made the franchise happen in the first place. Don't shaft us by expecting us to buy 40 (40!) discs at $15.00 each (even though that's exactly what I did already). Give us box sets that match the other series in the franchise! Give us extras! Give the people what they want!!






buffy rules

• Quoth Kerborus •<HR SIZE=1>As for Babylon 5, someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this show cancelled? Wasn't the ending a hurried up version of what was intended? If so, then I don't see where you can say that the ending was so well thought out and good. No one was watching it, so we squeezed it out like toothpaste... Anyway, you need to go back and watch ST, as I just did with those great box sets, they were very much serialized. <HR SIZE=1>

If you only had a clue how many times I've seen those TNG episodes. With no exageration and completely straight face, I can say I've seen each TNG episode at least 10 times and many of them into the 20s with a few into the 50s. So, I'm not ignorant of their content nor do I intend to speak badly against them (though a good 20% is filler fluff with little redeeming value ... but many shows are that way, and I don't fault them for it). Anyone who can claim 'Masks' or 'The Game' or 'Sub Rosa' were good with a straight face deserves an award.

As for them being serialized. Perhaps you're the one who needs to watch them again. Aside from uniform changes and some rotating cast members, 80% of the episodes could be watched in any order. The only episodes that show any continuity are the Borg and Q eps, some of the Klingon stuff, and a few repeat eps like 'Ship in a Bottle'. Minor character traits carry over to an episode when convenient, but there's no building story, no grand design. And that's fine. Episodic television is impotant and has value, but there's almost no level on which B5 could possibly be compared to TNG other than the most superficial aspect of space travel (which is handled so completely differently to begin with that there's little comparison).

And as already pointed out, B5 finished its story. There was a period when the 5th season was in doubt, and a few 5th season plots were bumped forward a bit "just in case," but the show finished its run. The story was completed, and I'll forever be in awe of its scope. As for the ending ... it was precisely what the creator wanted. And not unlike 'All Good Things ...', dare I say, it was absolutely brilliant.

• Quoth Kerborus •<HR SIZE=1>So is someone gonna tell me that these two shows are BETTER than ST and XF? Just say it. Until you can say it with a straight face, my point is valid, that better high quality shows can earn more money. Isn't that simple enough??????? Go ahead, make a fool of yourself and say it. <HR SIZE=1>

Fools, eh? To quote Homer, "everyone is stupid except me." Anyway, your point has shifted quite a bit as you've backpedalled away from original statements and sidestepped direct evidence refuting comments, and now we have to say both shows are BETTER? No, I'm not going to say that, because I think all these shows are great. And that's immaterial to your original claim that The X-Files and TNG are so defineably better than Babylon 5 and Buffy that they exist on a separate level of quality and demand a separate pricing structure.

I will therefore say with complete assuredness that I believe neither The X-Files nor TNG is BETTER than Buffy or Babylon 5. These are 4 VERY different shows, and to compare them the way you have is really quite absurd. Buffy isn't remotely like The X-Files, and Babylon 5 is as close to TNG as The Sopranos is to Sponge Bob Squarepants.

I will agree with Chew9 that the make-up and overall grandeur of the set design on B5 was significantly more ambitious than anything on TNG. I will also agree with others that I'd take anything from any of these shows over the last 2 seasons (and finale) of The X-Files, and I wouldn't dare compare TNG's second season (save a couple gems like 'Elementary, Dear Data' and 'Measure of a Man') to any season of B5 or Buffy, not even Buffy's oft-criticized 6th season.

As a side note, who ever claimed U2 and The Boss were crap? Considering the recent massive tour with his E Street Band, it seems like Bruce is still going strong. And U2 certainly hasn't gone anywhere in spite of some pretty bad effots like Pop. I don't think anyone's prepared to write off albums like 'Joshua Tree' or 'Achtung Baby' just yet (or ever). And while Eminem is a punk-ass bitch, I'd be a fool to deny his talent for lyrics. In a watered down and relatively hollow hip-hop culture, he's actually making a statement with his lyrics, whether you like what he's saying or not. Give a listen to his work (not just the radio singles), and you'll find there's a lot more to it than the hate-filled image the media has obsessively thrust upon him.

das

Welcome to the "Rock 'Em Sock 'Em TV Shows" thread.

A little note before everyone continues... no one here is the arbiter of taste for the entire universe. Just because someone likes their show better than your show doesn't mean they're wrong. Their arguments as to why they like their shows are not "lame" just because they disagree with you. And there's no need to keep playing the "your show is hokey" card... obviously you think your show is better than theirs. But please rise above the level of "LOLOLOL, your show is sux0r."

The "too long, didn't read" version: Play nice, be articulate, and don't slam on others because their taste is different than yours.

I should be pissed I paid close to 100.00 for The Prisoner box set but it seemed like a good deal when comapred to what I paid for the Columbia House VHS tapes.

As a long time science fiction fan of almost 30 years, I think star trek in all its forms makes fine drama but post-roddenberry st makes poor science fiction. To fill that need, Babylon 5 far surpasses anything under the name star trek.

B5 is probably the best tv show I've ever seen period. You notice I don't say my favorite SF show; it was so good dramatically and plot wise, so grand in scope B5 transcends its genre limitations IMHO. The Season 3 finale of Babylon 5 is my favorite moment of television ever.

Buffy far exceeded my expectations. I avoided it for many years due to the teen "stigma" I associated with it. Boy was I wrong. The characters in both series are three dimensional, complex, they do not stay the same as the series progresses unlike all post TOS star trek series. Can you honestly say that the Riker of Nemesis is any different from the Riker of Season 2 TNG?
In contrast, look at the Garibaldi of Season 1 B5 and compare him to Season 5; or Lenier; or Londo; or G'Kar. None of these characters are ANYTHING like their original selves. The beauty is that you can clearly see how their character progresses over the series run. The changes the characters undergo profoundly move the viewer. When was the last time you saw someone on TNG have to deal with truly HUMAN problems in a realistic way. They either pretend that no such problems exist or they make them seem silly and trivialize them.

Plus while I have come to finally enjoy DS9, we should not forget it would never have happened if it weren't for B5.

B5 will most DEFINITELY (already has) be appreciated by people who appreciate well written science fiction. I grew up on written science fiction and consider most tv/movie sf to be utter crap. But every now and then a true gem surprises me like B5 or Farscape.

Michael

• Quoth fiver •<HR SIZE=1>B5 will most DEFINITELY (already has) be appreciated by people who appreciate well written science fiction. I grew up on written science fiction and consider most tv/movie sf to be utter crap. But every now and then a true gem surprises me like B5 or Farscape.<HR SIZE=1>

To quote ... er ... me, "Star Trek defined science fiction on television; Babylon 5 redefined it; and Farscape flipped it upside down and shook the bejesus out of it."

Anyway, I agree ... I love the genre, but there's a lot of crap out there, particularly in film where crappy science fiction (the term science used loosely) seems to get greenlighted much more often. Thankfully, those gems like B5 and Farscape keep the genre alive. With B&B destroying Trek and trampling on Gene's grave, the Sci-Fi Channel turning into USA II: The New Age Network, Showtime bailing on their Friday night Sci-Fi lineup, and FOX ditching genre programming left and right, I fear it may be a while before we're treated to another one of those gems.

das

das,
It wasn't until very recently that I discovered B5, Farscape, Buffy/Angel. I'd been ignorant of them for years with various prejudices. B5's effects/costumes looked cheesy to me at one point so I never gave it even half a chance, Farscape was on sci-fi channel so it had to be crap (like Sliders), and Buffy/Angel I just assumed was a teen show. When I finally watched the above shows from beginning to end, I was blown away that studio execs would actually green light genre programming of this scope and depth; shows I would be proud to list at the top of my favorites in the sf genre whether book or tv or movie. Buffy wouldn't be at the very top for me but B5 and Farscape sure would. Farscape continuously and consistently surprised me with what they came up with next.

I'm going to be out of programming after this year it looks like (unless angel gets picked up for another season). Futurama being already cancelled along with Farscape and Buffy will make me have to read more, or maybe catch up on my dvd watching

Michael

Hey... We're not in Kansas anymore...

Anyhow, I guess the rest of this thread is obsolete, as we will never convince each other. I still think that the handful of you who are ranting at me, are as delusional as you think I am. I guess, it is a matter of taste. The last piece of evidence in my favor I can offer is in fact that my shows sell for a lot more dough then yours do (and they sell well) so obviously someone thinks there a tad bit more special...

As for the Start Trek has no continuity, you are all very wrong... The character of Tasha Yar stretched from the first season to the 5th season, Spock's appearance made an impact in seasons 5-7, Wesley's whole thing lasted from season 1-7, Romulan Commander Tarmalok lasted from season 2-7, Picard and his flute experience lasted him from 4-7, the Borg effect carried over from season 2-first contact, Data and his arc started from season 1-Nemesis, even Data's cat had a continuing saga and appeared in 2 movies... I truly think that you haven't watched the show more recently, or you would have forgotten how many other episodes are referenced over and over and how much experience is acted on, such as the shields that stand out against a sun episode and then using that to kill Lore's borg in season 7, or Crusher's trial with his friends at Starfleet academy and then that female character popping up again in season 7 at Picard's request, or Worf's suicude or his child, or Tarmalok popping up in all Good things, or Q always coming and so on, so on so on... It is a fact that you are all in error on this point. The characters all changed from season 1 to season 7.

I love the title of this thread.

Just because a few characters pop in from time to time doesn't mean that there is an overriding continuity to the TNG. There COULD have been with the Borg but that got old real fast after Best of Both Worlds...the closest TNG ever came to a continuous storyline was the Enterprise's relationship with the Klingon Empire...FAR more than the Borg storyline or the Q storyline.

Every star trek show was based on standalone episodes EXCEPT DS9, so that should be the show we're talking about here.

The price of these box sets is NOT equivalent of quality. You have to consider the studio releasing the set, the age of the series, whether the studio started releasing the set early on in the dvd format or later on. Paramount knows that they're catering to a much more vocal fanbase than B5, not greater just more vocal. You could wrap up a turd with the star trek logo on it, charge $150 and the star trek fanbase would buy it (oh wait voyager's due out year after next). Fox's XFiles is only as expensive as it is because it was their first tv series release very early in the dvd format. Every subsequent tv release has been priced more reasonably.

There are so many aspects to pricing structure in the marketplace that quality has little or NOTHING to do with it. I really can't imagine that you will find much support among those who have actually WATCHED the shows in question, only more of the same "ranting" as you've seen so far on this thread. If you don't want to argue coherently, then you should start the "Ultimate Star Trek Next Generation Worship, All-Other-Sf-Sux" thread

Michael

The last bit of evidence? More like the first, middle and last.


Go ahead and keep beating that dead horse. Perhaps some day it'll be true.

I think it's been fairly firmly established by this thread that price doesn't equate with quality.

'nuf said.

Given that logic then my Lupin III boxed set is 8 times better than Trek. A season of Trek costs 100 bucks while the second season of Lupin cost 800 bucks. Therefore Lupin is superior.

A high price tag only means that the Powers That Be can milk the fans - not an indication of quality.

The Picard from season 7 is the same character from season 1. Same flaws. Same goals. Same Desires. Show a newbie a show from an early season and a later run episode - they will have no problem following the characterization. Not so with B5:



And so on and so on. I think the only character that didn't grow and change all that much was Dr Franklin. Oh - and that guy from C&C who showed up from time to time. He got a name eventually - but that was it.

**EDIT ** Whoops - spoiler tag didnt work

**EDIT 2 ** - A case could be made for Franklin - what with the bout of drug addiction - but he is more or less is the same at the beginning as the end. And Data still can't use contractions even after 7 years of human interaction.

Our friend Kerborus seems to buy into the old addage you get what you pay for. You see a DVD on the shelf, and a similar title next to it, and one price is lower, that movie must suck dog. Now, my question is when It's A Wonderful Life first came to DVD, I found it in the store for 24.99. When it was re-released (with the same bonus features and all), it was priced in the same store for 16.99 (I don't know what the MSRP was on them.) So the re-release must have been an inferior movie compared to the first release, therefore the first release is superior and I should buy that one. At least Kerborus would think so. Kerborus, they must see you coming from a mile away with SUCKER written on your forehead.

If we are going to compare anime, I paid about $25.00 for each volume of Cowboy Bebop, so all 26 episodes cost me $150.00. Each season of Star Trek TNG cost me, on average, $84.00. That must mean Cowboy Bebop is a superior show to TNG. Wait, to say that would be stating an opinion, NOT FACT.

It’s a shame I don’t have the time to hang around here as much as I’d like.

All the love and sweat poured into this thread by the various combatants, all the thoughtful arguments, the hours spent trying to make a point (and some very good points indeed!)…
…and all this was about from the git-go was who’s got the biggest dick.



I think I’m in love!

I continue to find this point interesting. Higher Price= more special, you claim?

Jackass Volume 2 MSRP $19.99

I Love Lucy Volume 2 MSRP $14.95

These both come from Paramount.

I guess Paramount thinks Jackass is more special in the annals of television history........